What's the difference between 48000hz and 44100hz? *mp3 related*

NotoriousJTC

Golden Member
Nov 19, 2000
1,406
0
0
Whats the difference between a song that is encoded @ 48000hz and 44100hz? Besides the larger file size and the higher frequency?

Would a song encoded at 48000 sound better than one at 44100? (assuming they're the same bitrate).
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
Not at all. 44100 is more than your ear needs. 48000 is just a nice round number.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81


<< 3900hz.

Seriously, you would have a hard time distinguishing anything above 22khz
>>



Maybe if youre 65 years old, but I can certainly tell 33khz from 44khz.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81


<< is it true that you can only burn audio CD's if the tracks are 44.1 KHz ? >>



Any decent burning program will down or upsample it for you.
 

Scootin159

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2001
3,650
0
76
just for reference:

the sampling frequency is how many times per second the encoder takes a sample of the audio. Basically if you have a 48khz encoded mp3 it will take an audio sample 48k times a second. This also means that the mp3 is accurate only(?) to sound up to 48khz (which you can't hear anyways). Basically the higher the #, the more clarity you'll hear. As was stated though, CD's only use 44.1khz & they seem good enough for most anyone out there. Even as ThisIsMatt said, anything above 22khz is hard to hear. The biggest reason for 48khz tracks is for if you're going to be resampling and editing the audio tracks or something like that. Every time it has to resample it you will loose quality, and you'll loose more with lower sample rates.
 

NotoriousJTC

Golden Member
Nov 19, 2000
1,406
0
0


<< just for reference:

Basically the higher the #, the more clarity you'll hear.
>>



ah ok, that makes sense 2 me.

So, let's say i have a song that was encoded with a bitrate of 320kbs @ a frequency of 48kHz. And i used a burning program that downsampled it to 44.1kHz when burning. Would the resulting file sound have the same quality as if it were song encoded @ 320kbs and 44.1kHz, and then burned?

ie.

320kbs @ 48kHz --> downsample --> CD

vs.

320kbs @ 44.1kHz --> CD

oh god i hope i made some sense..... ;)

 

Scootin159

Diamond Member
Apr 17, 2001
3,650
0
76


<<

<< just for reference:

Basically the higher the #, the more clarity you'll hear.
>>



ah ok, that makes sense 2 me.

So, let's say i have a song that was encoded with a bitrate of 320kbs @ a frequency of 48kHz. And i used a burning program that downsampled it to 44.1kHz when burning. Would the resulting file sound have the same quality as if it were song encoded @ 320kbs and 44.1kHz, and then burned?

ie.

320kbs @ 48kHz --> downsample --> CD

vs.

320kbs @ 44.1kHz --> CD

oh god i hope i made some sense..... ;)
>>



I imagine there would be some loss as you would have to resample it, but I'm pretty sure that it would be so minimal that you would never know it.
 

Piano Man

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2000
3,370
0
76


<< Not at all. 44100 is more than your ear needs. 48000 is just a nice round number. >>



While it is true that you cannot hear above somewhere around 20kHz, the overtones of the frequency(which are supersonic) still affect the fundamental tone. Therefore, the higher the frequency the better. You chop off the overtones, the fundamental isn't as "true" of a sound.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81


<< While it is true that you cannot hear above somewhere around 20kHz, the overtones of the frequency(which are supersonic) still affect the fundamental tone. Therefore, the higher the frequency the better. You chop off the overtones, the fundamental isn't as "true" of a sound. >>




Theoretically true, but if you can consistently tell the difference between 48000hz and 44100hz in a blind test even on good speakers, I'll eat your shoe.
 

thomsbrain

Lifer
Dec 4, 2001
18,148
1
0


<< Not at all. 44100 is more than your ear needs. 48000 is just a nice round number. >>



um. no. Actually, 48,000 isn't even enough, you need at least 96,000 to really start modeling analog quality and warmth. Time to get rid of your speakers. ;) Most new recordings are mastered at 192,000 these days.

edit: And by the way, sample frequency and sound wave frequency are completely unrelated. A 20,000Hz tone sampled at 22,000Hz will be distorted beyond recognition. You will be getting barely one sample per vibration, meaning you'll basically be sampling it at the same place every time, even though it's actually vibrating up and down. The resulting playback tone could acutally be LOWER than you could hear, because it would have no relation to the input tone. Even at 44,000, you are only getting 2.2 samples per vibration, which is still not nearly enough to approximate the tone.
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71


<< I'll eat your shoe. >>



I think it's supposed to be "I'll eat my shoe."

I wouldn't want someone to consume my clothing for losing a bet. Eat your own damn footwear.
 

Cattlegod

Diamond Member
May 22, 2001
8,687
1
0


<<

<< Not at all. 44100 is more than your ear needs. 48000 is just a nice round number. >>



um. no. Actually, 48,000 isn't even enough, you need at least 96,000 to really start modeling analog quality and warmth. Time to get rid of your speakers. ;) Most new recordings are mastered at 192,000 these days.

edit: And by the way, sample frequency and sound wave frequency are completely unrelated. A 20,000Hz tone sampled at 22,000Hz will be distorted beyond recognition. You will be getting barely one sample per vibration, meaning you'll basically be sampling it at the same place every time, even though it's actually vibrating up and down. The resulting playback tone could acutally be LOWER than you could hear, because it would have no relation to the input tone. Even at 44,000, you are only getting 2.2 samples per vibration, which is still not nearly enough to approximate the tone.
>>



i don't agree with everything you said. actually, i agree if you can hear above 20khz, but almost no one can. in order for a signal to be represented correctly you need at least 2x the highest frequency in the signal. since you can only hear up to 20khz so a sampling rate of 44khz is more than enough unless the original signal had frequencies higher than 20khz as static noise, then you would get aliasing. however, i doubt any is present.

to give you an example: when you turn your TV on and you hear that high pitched buzz? that is about 16-17khz, not much music goes up in that range ever. 34khz is enough to sample that signal, 44.1khz is overkill.

44.1khz is more than sufficient.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,389
8,547
126
if you're encoding from a cd track you might as well not bother encoding above 44.1 because thats all the info the cd has. from analog higher is better to a point, and then the diminishing returns on audio quality vs amount of storage required hits and you realize that you need better speakers and ears.
 

Antoneo

Diamond Member
May 25, 2001
3,911
0
0
Doesn't the higher frequencies that are being sampled contribute to the overall "feeling" of the music that is being played? I thought this was the idea of SACD? I could be wrong as I do not know much about this so please enlighten me as well.
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81


<<

<< I'll eat your shoe. >>



I think it's supposed to be "I'll eat my shoe."

I wouldn't want someone to consume my clothing for losing a bet. Eat your own damn footwear.
>>



My feet dont smell. If I ate my shoe, it would be like eating a pancake. Yours on the other hand...
 

incallisto

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2000
1,473
0
0


<<

<< While it is true that you cannot hear above somewhere around 20kHz, the overtones of the frequency(which are supersonic) still affect the fundamental tone. Therefore, the higher the frequency the better. You chop off the overtones, the fundamental isn't as "true" of a sound. >>




Theoretically true, but if you can consistently tell the difference between 48000hz and 44100hz in a blind test even on good speakers, I'll eat your shoe.
>>



Start eating. I can hear a dog whistle. ;)
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81


<< Start eating. I can hear a dog whistle. >>



Considering what you just claimed, I dont think I'm the shoe chewer.
 

incallisto

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2000
1,473
0
0


<<

<< Start eating. I can hear a dog whistle. >>



Considering what you just claimed, I dont think I'm the shoe chewer.
>>



I was joking. ;) However, I can tell the difference between 48kHz and 44.1Khz audio blindfolded.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
BigDee2003 -- << 44100 is more than your ear needs. 48000 is just a nice round number. >>

Ummm.... NO! Bad answer, both mathmatically and musically. I end up posting about this about every six months. I hope you're in the mood for a read. :)

Anyone who has seen my previous posts knows I think CD's suck compared to original sounds for two reasons -- 16 bits just aren't enough, and the sampling rate (44 KHz) is way too low.

16 Bit Quantization

The encoding scheme is linear PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) which quantizes levels as a linear function (bits per volt) while your ear perceives sound as a log function (decibels = dB). As the signal level gets lower, you have fewer bits to resolve the details of the sonic image, so the distortion rises as the level goes down. Meanwhile, human beings tend to tolerate more distortion at higher levels and to be more sensitive to distortion at lower levels, because that is what happens with both your own ears and most real world sound generators like instruments, speakers and amps. In other words, when it's full bore blowing your own ears into distortion, it's as clean as it's going to get. In a moderately soft passage, where your ears are more sensitive to distortion, CD's are glad to give you lots more distortion.

It's like dot matrix lithography without enough dots per square inch (the equivalent of frequency response) or a good enough grey scale (the equivalent of dynamic range). A young man can get off single handed if the image is up to Playboy centerfold standards ;), but IMHO, 16 bits x 44 KHz is the equivalent of crude newsprint.

If the system encoded the signal as bits per dB, the distortion would be constant. However, that is a much more difficult system to build. Furthermore, the current system is already in place, and it would still require more bits to achieve acceptable results.

44 KHz Sampling Rate

44 KHz is an inadequate sample rate. This sampling rate was chosen based on Nyquist's theorem, which states that, to recover a given frequency, you must sample the information slightly more than twice the highest frequency. The problem is that Nyquist wasn't a musician. As you get closer to the high end of the audio spectrum, this theorem is only valid for a single, steady state tone. If you change the conditions to allow for a second tone, or to modulate the amplitude (volume) of the sine wave while it is being sampled, you have created a condition where there are literally an infinite number of possible outputs for a given sample.

As a designer of analog gear, when people ask me how many bits I want, I always answer, All of them! :) No matter how many they have, I have more. :D

More Problems

Another problem is, the inherant distortion in CD's is non-harmonic. That means, unlike harmonic distortion (THD), the distortion products are out of tune with the music, which, in turn, means that human beings are far more sensitive to this kind of distortion. That is why I said that, to some extent, the inherent distortion of most analog systems is more tolerable than typical distortion found in PCM systems.

As I said, I used to be a professional musician, too. Music (and any art form, for that matter) transcends the medium. It isn't just counting to four and getting the notes in the right place. The subtle undertextures of a musical performance are part of the "magic" that moves your soul. When I turn off the scopes and meters and just kick back to play or listen, CD's don't cut it. I have CDR's in my machines, but I don't own a CD player.

If you want to hear the difference, get ahold of an old LP in good condition of something that was recorded analog, and a CD re-issue of the same thing. Cue them up so they are in sync, and switch between them. LP's win every time. Good examples would be Eagles, James Taylor, older Steely Dan and anything else with good air space in the recording.

It could be worse. MP3's suck even more than CD's. :Q MP3 is an example of a "lossy" system that discards information some machine "thinks" you can't hear. PKZIP is an example of a lossless system. The data storage footprint is compressed, but you get all the data back when it is decompressed. The information lost in lossy compression is usually subtle stuff, but I have participated in experiments that prove you definitely can hear the difference.

There is hope on the horizon. The highest standard for the new audio only DVD is two channels of 24 bit data @ 192 KHz with only lossless compression. At that sampling rate, it will once again matter if the analog electronics I design can do a good job of reproducing the signal. :)

Don't worry. It's a multi-format standard that is compatible back to current CD's, so you'll still be able to play them. Of course, once you hear the new stuff on a good system, you may not want to, anymore. We may finally be about to come out of the Audio Dark Ages[/b]. :D
 

BD2003

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
16,815
1
81
So was I. :D

I'm not talking MP3s or CDs. CDs are 44.1khz, and if its upsampled to 48khz, its been changed, and probably sounds worse.

Two wave files, originally sampled from the same source at higher than 48000khz (192khz or 96khz). If you can tell the difference, you better watch out for the government.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
34,355
1,531
126
Thanks for the info Harvey, you've answered a lot of questions that I've had. Can you point to some good, technical, in-depth resources?
 

incallisto

Golden Member
Apr 30, 2000
1,473
0
0


<< [There is hope on the horizon. The highest standard for the new audio only DVD is two channels of 24 bit data @ 192 KHz with only lossless compression. At that sampling rate, it will once again matter if the analog electronics I design can do a good job of reproducing the signal. :)

Don't worry. It's a multi-format standard that is compatible back to current CD's, so you'll still be able to play them. Of course, once you hear the new stuff on a good system, you may not want to, anymore. We may finally be about to come out of the Audio Dark Ages[/b]. :D
>>



SuperAudio CDs (DVDs) with their 5.6-MHz (2.8 per channel) @ 1-bit audio with 0-100kHz bandwidth and 120dB dynamic range. Lovely. :)
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
As I said, the audio only DVD standard is even better than that -- 24 bit sampling @ 192 kHz. I've heard 24 bit 96 kHz. It's pretty good, but 192 kHz should be killer. :D