What's behind the rhetoric in the shutdown?

[Muse]

So, ... what's behind the rhetoric? What's really driving the Tea Party's position here? I have heard nothing substantive. I hear snippets such as "the American people are against this" or "this is terrible for America" or "the American people's opinion has not been taken into consideration" or "the Democrats refuse to even negotiate." That's all I've seen in the media. What's really driving this? I have to think (please please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Tea Party (who are presumably driving the GOP stance here) are acting in the interests of donors, supporters, who are doing the bidding of (or actually are) the insurance companies, and possibly other parties (e.g. the pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, the hospitals, other wealthy parties who prefer a laissez fair approach in government for their own reasons) who believe that they stand to lose as the ACA kicks in. It appears to me that the people behind this prefer to remain in the shadows. What are your thoughts about this?

 

[thraashman]

I'm pretty sure that the reason for the Tea Party rhetoric is that if more people have healthcare coverage, more lower income people don't die each year. And lower income people don't tend to vote Republican (exception, Mississippi, Alabama ... ok the entire south). So the Tea Party wants to ensure as many poor people die each year as possible to help create a more likely Republican run nation.

Heck, the estimates are that prior to Obamacare 45000 people die in this nation each year due a lack of health insurance. Obamacare is estimated to drop that number below 30000. And the Romney/Ryan health plan was estimated to increase that number at minimum to 70k. So I can't see any other reason behind Tea Party logic than they're trying to kill thousands of Americans. Which is what their policies do.

I don't know for sure though. I can't think like a Tea Party person or a mainstream Republican. I'm too smart and not an antisocial psychopath.

 

[fskimospy]

The whole meaning here is pretty clear, the republicans are terrified that the ACA is going to work. If it was really going to be the train wreck they claim, they would just let it fail, clean up in the next election, and then implement their own plan. The sheer amount of damage they are willing to inflict on the economy to stop its implementation shows that economic effects of the ACA aren't paramount to them.

So yeah, it is basically they think once people start getting health insurance through it it will become too popular to get rid of.

 

[boomerang]

I'm pretty sure that the reason for the Tea Party rhetoric is that if more people have healthcare coverage, more lower income people don't die each year. And lower income people don't tend to vote Republican (exception, Mississippi, Alabama ... ok the entire south). So the Tea Party wants to ensure as many poor people die each year as possible to help create a more likely Republican run nation.

Heck, the estimates are that prior to Obamacare 45000 people die in this nation each year due a lack of health insurance. Obamacare is estimated to drop that number below 30000. And the Romney/Ryan health plan was estimated to increase that number at minimum to 70k. So I can't see any other reason behind Tea Party logic than they're trying to kill thousands of Americans. Which is what their policies do.

I don't know for sure though. I can't think like a Tea Party person or a mainstream Republican. I'm too smart and not an antisocial psychopath.

Thanks for the laugh this morning. You're quite the genius!

 

[shadow9d9]

They don't like being the losers and have continued to have intensified fits since Obama was elected. losing 2 elections haven't helped. Hell, they broke history by FILLIBUSTERING THEIR OWN BILL recently! They are becoming obsolete and have a hard time coming to terms with it.

 

[shadow9d9]

Thanks for the laugh this morning. You're quite the genius!

You got nothing. One liners without any actual rebuttal reeks of desperation... Just like this whole shutdown.

 

[thraashman]

Thanks for the laugh this morning. You're quite the genius!

Well when nothing a group does makes ANY logical sense, you have to look towards the illogical. It may seem like a wild hypothesis, but after looking at Tea Party actions, it makes sense that they'd think this way.

 

[nixium]

Thraaashman is spot on. The tea party is full of dangerous sociopaths that worship money and ideology at the cost of everything/everyone else. I won't be surprised if they take to violence next - the very posts of some of the 'educated' TPers in this forum show a barely concealed madness boiling just below the surface. It wouldn't surprise me if they took to violence next to achieve their goals. Thank god for the second amendment so that normal people can protect themselves from the rabid when that happens.

 

[cubby1223]

The whole meaning here is pretty clear, the republicans are terrified that the ACA is going to work. If it was really going to be the train wreck they claim, they would just let it fail, clean up in the next election, and then implement their own plan. The sheer amount of damage they are willing to inflict on the economy to stop its implementation shows that economic effects of the ACA aren't paramount to them.

So yeah, it is basically they think once people start getting health insurance through it it will become too popular to get rid of.

Whatever you have to tell yourself to make it through the days...

This is an entitlement with immediate promises made to people, and once promises have been made it's near impossible to cut off.

Once Obamacare starts, there is no "let it fail, clean up in the next election." By the next election promises and liabilities are on the books and the only way to pay out is to take in, and the only way to take in is to make more promises and take on more liabilities.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

What's really driving this?

Butthurt, stupidity, stubborness and pride.

 

[brandonb]

An individual mandate[26][27] requires all individuals not covered by an employer sponsored health plan, Medicaid, Medicare or other public insurance programs (such as Tricare) to secure an approved private-insurance policy or pay a penalty, unless the applicable individual has a financial hardship or is a member of a recognized religious sect exempted by the Internal Revenue Service.[28] The law includes subsidies to help people with low incomes comply with the mandate.[29]

Just another thing in which the poor (non working) don't have to pay for at all and don't have to pay the penalty. Yet those who work have to get insurance or pay the penalty.

Businesses who employ 50 or more people but do not offer health insurance to their full-time employees will pay a tax penalty if the government has subsidized a full-time employee's healthcare through tax deductions or other means. This is commonly known as the employer mandate.[47][48]

This will just cause businesses to reduce hours and make everybody a part time employee. Which reduces income for those wanting full time employment.

We're almost better off not working at this point. Unless you make 6 figures or more.

 

[cubby1223]

You got nothing. One liners without any actual rebuttal reeks of desperation... Just like this whole shutdown.

His post had far more substance than thraashman's.

 

[BUnit1701]

So, ... what's behind the rhetoric? What's really driving the Tea Party's position here? I have heard nothing substantive. I hear snippets such as "the American people are against this" or "this is terrible for America" or "the American people's opinion has not been taken into consideration" or "the Democrats refuse to even negotiate." That's all I've seen in the media. What's really driving this? I have to think (please please correct me if I'm wrong) that the Tea Party (who are presumably driving the GOP stance here) are acting in the interests of donors, supporters, who are doing the bidding (or actually are) the insurance companies, and possibly other parties (e.g. the pharmaceutical industry, the AMA, the hospitals, other wealthy parties who prefer a laissez fair approach in government for their own reasons) who believe that they stand to lose as the ACA kicks in. It appears to me that the people behind this prefer to remain in the shadows. What are your thoughts about this?

LMAO hardly, these are the groups that lobbied the Democrats to get the ACA in the first place. Why would insurance companies not want a law that MANDATES every individual purchase insurance from them?

 

[PokerGuy]

All the delusions of the usual lefties aside (I appreciate the comedic value of posts like thraashman's), the bottom line is that this is one chance to delay the unleashing of this disaster on the American people. One of the reasons I voted for my reps is because I want them to do whatever they can to put a stop to the mess. That's exactly what they're doing. Once the trillions start flowing on a government program, you can never get rid of it or fix it in the future, that's just how DC works.

 

[brandonb]

LMAO hardly, these are the groups that lobbied the Democrats to get the ACA in the first place. Why would insurance companies not want a law that MANDATES every individual purchase insurance from them?

Right, and get their noses into subsidies on top of it. Free money!

 

[BUnit1701]

The whole meaning here is pretty clear, the republicans are terrified that the ACA is going to work. If it was really going to be the train wreck they claim, they would just let it fail, clean up in the next election, and then implement their own plan. The sheer amount of damage they are willing to inflict on the economy to stop its implementation shows that economic effects of the ACA aren't paramount to them.

So yeah, it is basically they think once people start getting health insurance through it it will become too popular to get rid of.

Lets have a quick look at the other Federal trainwrecks that have continued to suck us dry.

The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. The corrupt morons in government have had 238 years to get it right and it is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935. The corrupt morons in government have had 78 years to get it right and it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938. The corrupt morons in government have had 75 years to get it right and it is broke.

The War on Poverty started in 1964. The corrupt morons in government have had 49 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. The corrupt morons in government have had 48 years to get it right and they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970. The corrupt morons in government have had 43 years to get it right and it is broke.

The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. The corrupt morons in government had 36 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

These corrupt morons in government have FAILED in every "government service" they have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.

 

[thraashman]

His post had far more substance than thraashman's.

Actually what I posted was more intelligent and better thought out than anything anyone who is a member of or who has supported the Tea Party has ever said. And I intentionally tried to make it as absurd as possible. When you're talking about those who are absurd, you have to aim to be absurd yourself.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

All the delusions of the usual lefties aside (I appreciate the comedic value of posts like thraashman's), the bottom line is that this is one chance to delay the unleashing of this disaster on the American people. One of the reasons I voted for my reps is because I want them to do whatever they can to put a stop to the mess. That's exactly what they're doing. Once the trillions start flowing on a government program, you can never get rid of it or fix it in the future, that's just how DC works.

It's time to move on...Republicans have made their statement.

In my opinion, Obamacare needs to be implemented in all its glory as soon as possible. If anything, this is what's going to undo Obamacare...it's going to be from the backlash of people realizing they're eating a shit sandwich first hand. Republicans need to now step back a let the tax penalties and insurance costs hit the poor and lower middle class, let the young, the unions, and those who lost their plans figure out for themselves just how much they got royally screwed by this legislation. There's nothing more Republicans can do at this point.

 

[boomerang]

You got nothing. One liners without any actual rebuttal reeks of desperation... Just like this whole shutdown.

Oh, there's that pouty face again.

 

[boomerang]

Lets have a quick look at the other Federal trainwrecks that have continued to suck us dry.

The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775. The corrupt morons in government have had 238 years to get it right and it is broke.

Social Security was established in 1935. The corrupt morons in government have had 78 years to get it right and it is broke.

Fannie Mae was established in 1938. The corrupt morons in government have had 75 years to get it right and it is broke.

The War on Poverty started in 1964. The corrupt morons in government have had 49 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor" and they only want more.

Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965. The corrupt morons in government have had 48 years to get it right and they are broke.

Freddie Mac was established in 1970. The corrupt morons in government have had 43 years to get it right and it is broke.

The Department of Energy was created in 1977 to lessen our dependence on foreign oil. It has ballooned to 16,000 employees with a budget of $24 billion a year and we import more oil than ever before. The corrupt morons in government had 36 years to get it right and it is an abysmal failure.

These corrupt morons in government have FAILED in every "government service" they have shoved down our throats while overspending our tax dollars.

But Democare will be different because before, they never had the right people in place. With Obama, we do.

 

[nixium]

Doc Savage has it right. Let the effects of the law decide its fate, not blackmail/extortion tactics. I don't like the law as well but its better than the POS healthcare is right now.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

I agree, Republicans have made their point. Pass a clean continuing resolution and increase the debt limit.

 

[boomerang]

Doc Savage has it right. Let the effects of the law decide its fate, not blackmail/extortion tactics. I don't like the law as well but its better than the POS healthcare is right now.

They're coming up against a hard deadline pretty quick. The budget crap will be settled. I too am in agreement on Democare. I had a change in my thinking about a week ago. It's another unsustainable government program that should fail rather quickly in part based on the economic condition the country is in right now.

It may just take the whole economy down with it but as I've said numerous times before I see that as an inevitability that is pretty much etched in stone.

 

[glenn1]

The whole meaning here is pretty clear, the republicans are terrified that the ACA is going to work. If it was really going to be the train wreck they claim, they would just let it fail, clean up in the next election, and then implement their own plan. The sheer amount of damage they are willing to inflict on the economy to stop its implementation shows that economic effects of the ACA aren't paramount to them.

So yeah, it is basically they think once people start getting health insurance through it it will become too popular to get rid of.

Yeah, that's sorta how progressives approached divisive issues in the last Administration. If invading Iraq really going be the train wreck they claimed, they just stood out of the way and let Bush "iron out the wrinkles" since some hiccups were expected at the beginning of any big undertaking, amirite? Nope, there would be no kicking and screaming about a "rush to war" and attempts to delay it as long as possible, legislative efforts to defund, and massive demonstrations; the Democrats just stood 100% behind the effort and did all they support Bush in his efforts.

 

[Paratus]

If you believe this slate article it's because Obamacare was never the real reason. The shutdown was for leverage in fucking the country, excuse me gaining leverage in the debt limit fight.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...re_republicans_are_using_the_shutdown_as.html

Three days into the federal shutdown, Republicans are beginning to admit that, contrary to everything they told us, they didn’t really close the government to stop Obamacare. They did it, and will keep doing it, to gain leverage in the coming fight over the debt ceiling. The government will stay shut for the next two weeks so that the GOP can accumulate power.

This isn’t Democratic spin. It’s what Republicans themselves are telling reporters, particularly the conservative media. Last night in the Washington Examiner, David Drucker reported:

House GOP leaders and most of their rank and file never supported conservatives' efforts to use the budget bill and the threat of a government shutdown to defund Obamacare … But having gone as far as they have, House Republicans now say they won't back down. And they expect to score political points in the process.​

The real target, according to Drucker’s sources, is the deadline for raising the debt ceiling, which is two weeks away:

[House] Republicans said Wednesday that the spending impasse that shut down the government early Tuesday is less about conservatives' desire to derail Obamacare than it is about strengthening their hand in the debt-ceiling talks. … “We’re not going to be disrespected,” conservative Rep. Marlin Stutzman, R-Ind., added. “We have to get something out of this. And I don’t know what that even is.”​

Drucker’s account matches what Republicans are telling other outlets. In the Washington Post, Paul Kane reports that House Speaker John Boehner never wanted to use the shutdown threat to stop Obamacare. Nevertheless, Boehner joined this assault in order to head off a “rebellion” in his caucus. As a result, the speaker has:

kept sending the Senate bills that would completely defund or delay the health-care law, knowing it would lead to a shutdown. … Now that Boehner has survived several days of the shutdown, his friends say there is no point in moving a clean funding resolution. They said the shutdown is leverage in talks with Obama and the Democrats about lifting the debt ceiling.​

On Wednesday, according to Robert Costa of the National Review, “Boehner called groups of members to his Capitol office all day, taking their temperature on the shutdown and the debt limit. It became clear, members say, that Boehner’s chief goal is conference unity as the debt limit nears.” In the Hill, Molly Hooper found the GOP abandoning its original message:

Republicans, including those same conservatives, attempted to shift the conversation away from defunding ObamaCare to larger items such as entitlement spending and tax reform. … Stutzman added that those same conservatives essentially stopped talking as much about ObamaCare and have moved on to broader economic matters.​

What do these reports tell us? Two things. First, Boehner lied. Here’s what he told the country on Monday, the day before the shutdown:

I didn’t come here to shut down the government. I came here to fight for a smaller, less costly, and more accountable federal government. But here we find ourselves in this moment dealing with a law that’s causing unknown consequences and unknown damage to the American people and to our economy. And that issue is Obamacare. … This is not about me, and it’s not about Republicans here in Congress. It’s about fairness for the American people.​

There’s no way to square that statement with the latest disclosures. Boehner never believed in trading the shutdown threat for Obamacare. He knew what he’d get was a shutdown.

Second, contrary to what he told us, it’s all about Republicans in Congress. By their own paraphrased admissions, it’s “about strengthening their hand in the debt-ceiling talks.” It’s “leverage” in the debt ceiling fight. They knew that the deadline for that fight was Oct. 17. Yet they choked off government funding on Tuesday, under the pretense of stopping Obamacare. Today is Oct. 3. Republicans are prepared to keep the government closed for at least two more weeks, just to gain the upper hand in a future confrontation.

Remember when these guys captured the House? They said they weren’t coming here to play the Washington game. What an excellent joke.