What would you think if prison inmates were required to pay for their stay?

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Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,237
146
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Please provide evidence that prisoners who refuse to work are locked up in solitary.

Oh wait, you can't. Because you're full of sh!t. They may be confined to their cells for much of the day, but they are NOT locked in solitary.

A quick search found this for the state of Carolina:

General Statute 148-26 declares that:
all able-bodied prison inmates shall be required to perform diligently all work assignments provided for them. The failure of any inmate to perform such a work assignment may result in disciplinary action. Work assignments and employment shall be for the public benefit to reduce the cost of maintaining the inmate population while enabling inmates to acquire or retain skills and work habits needed to secure honest employment after their release.

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/WORK/workover.htm



And it is similar elsewhere. Nobody wants a prison where inmates are just sitting around doing nothing. Idle hands and all.

That means loss of privileges, not solitary confinement. There are LOTS of disciplinary actions a prison can take. Solitary is a drastic measure and limited in space. They don't use it just for prisoners who refuse to work.

Again, you're full of Sh1t

And what privileges do they lose? And what are these LOTS of disciplinary actions that a prison can take? Have them sit in a corner? Give them a fine? Take away the TV? Not give them dinner?

You're just ignorant.

Loss of TV.

Loss of exercise time/weight room.

Loss of visitation.

Loss of mail

Loss of phone privileges.

Loss of privileges to buy stuff.

Confinement to cell. (not solitary)

And many more little perks that they can take away.

I'm not the dumb fsck that did something so stupid I landed in prison. No, that's what you claim you are... even though you seem to know so little about it.
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Just becase you are 'working' 40 hours a week does that mean you are being productive. I mean Im sure they can assign 4 inmates to mop and remop the same hallway all day but is that productive? does it add any value anywhere? If it takes only 10% (im being generous) of the prison population to keep the place clean and the inmates fed then what exactly are the other 90% doing?

Everything is supervisored by correction officers, and they're not going to assign 4 inmates to mop the same hallway, then have them hang around together the rest of the time.

And like i said, there are government contracts that have inmates working.

sounds like one of those how man inmates does it take to screw in a lightbulb jokes...

some how i cannot believe that the workers are A) doing something productive B) learning a trade

Why do so many return to jail?
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,237
146
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Prison labor is not cheap.

Since you're so keen on evidence, lets see the evidence that prison labor is not cheap? What would be the incentive for a company to go with prison inmates, who would have to put their supervisors in danger, have to put up with things like lockdown that would ruin timetables, if it costs the same as hiring regular people?

Why do you keep bleating the same bullsh!t over and over?

Because you're too dumb to understand simple concepts.

Pot, meet Kettle...

The prison would start it's own company. How many times do I need to explain this to you? The cost of supporting the prisoners ensures that the prison labor will not be cheaper than any other labor.

And again i asked you, if the labor isn't much cheaper, why would ANYBODY hire inmates?

Every argument you've made against the idea has been countered quite easily. And yet you keep making the same arguments over and over and over.

Well then answer it. Why would anybody hire inmates if they aren't cheap labor?

THE PRISON WOULD START IT'S OWN BUSINESS.

People would buy goods produced by the inmates.

There are already prisons with factories that make money.

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

Um and i said they do. License plates, clothes that are used by fellow inmates (and i'm sure some uniforms), road signs, etc. Things that are used within the government, and not competed in the marketplace, or are you suffering from selective reading?

And as I said, make them produce and compete to support themselves. Make their overhead a competitive salary that goes towards supporting them.

You still have not really addressed these. Instead you keep reverting back to the same old BS over and over again.
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Prison labor is not cheap.

Since you're so keen on evidence, lets see the evidence that prison labor is not cheap? What would be the incentive for a company to go with prison inmates, who would have to put their supervisors in danger, have to put up with things like lockdown that would ruin timetables, if it costs the same as hiring regular people?

Why do you keep bleating the same bullsh!t over and over?

Because you're too dumb to understand simple concepts.

Pot, meet Kettle...

The prison would start it's own company. How many times do I need to explain this to you? The cost of supporting the prisoners ensures that the prison labor will not be cheaper than any other labor.

And again i asked you, if the labor isn't much cheaper, why would ANYBODY hire inmates?

Every argument you've made against the idea has been countered quite easily. And yet you keep making the same arguments over and over and over.

Well then answer it. Why would anybody hire inmates if they aren't cheap labor?

THE PRISON WOULD START IT'S OWN BUSINESS.

People would buy goods produced by the inmates.

There are already prisons with factories that make money.

Why is this concept so hard for you to understand?

Um and i said they do. License plates, clothes that are used by fellow inmates (and i'm sure some uniforms), road signs, etc. Things that are used within the government, and not competed in the marketplace, or are you suffering from selective reading?

the problem with that is when they leave jail...nobody is hiring anyone that can make liscense plates or orange jumpsuits
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"
 

Nitemare

Lifer
Feb 8, 2001
35,461
4
76
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
I think prison inmates should be made to work and produce something and the proceeds go towards their expenses.

Korea has this... and the US was crying that it was similar to slave labor, and that it's not fair for normal companies that needs to compete with these.

Bullsh!t.

They are working to support themselves. It costs 30,000-50,000 a year to support a prisoner. That's a damn fine wage for a factory worker.

Slave labor my ass. It's no cheaper to have a prisoner work for free than it is to hire help.


Have them sleep in tents outside like they do in Phoenix.

A large open place surrounded by walls with guards carrying rifles, with food, clothing and plumbing should not be that expensive.

If they refuse to work, let them starve.
 

RichPLS

Senior member
Nov 21, 2004
477
0
0
Prison is punishment and inmates should know it, most do.
There is and should be more prison work programs so that the states could recoup some costs associated with housing them.
More effort should be put into rehabilitating prisoners, since the majority are going to enter back into society eventually.
Prisoners should also be protected better from rapes and abuse behind bars which occurs from both inmates and guards alike.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,237
146
Originally posted by: Nik
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"

Nik, that's been tried. It fails.

The majority of prisoners will be returned to society. Simply confining them for years does nothing to rehabilitate them. In fact, it just makes them better criminals.

Teaching them a trade, work ethics, an education and keeping them in line with a system of rewards and punishments works far better.

Also, the number one opponents of a system like yours are prison guards themselves. Without privileges and rewards, prisoners have little incentive to behave.
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Hardcore
how bout an incentive program since solitary clearly doesnt work.

How would you know it's not working? Because from the movies you see?

you dont want to workk fine you agree to give up your option of parole.

It does. Your behavior in prison, including what your supervisors say, influences the parole board decisions. if you've been hardworking, they're going to take that into consideration. If you refuse to work, stole from work, skipped it often, etc, they take that into consideration as well.

You still dont want to work? ok everyday you dont work add a day to your sentence

You're assuming solitary confinement doesn't work.

the policy sounds too flimsy for me. It needs to be hard as nails.

if you do A you get B
If you dont do A you get C
If you continue to not do A you get C and D


A = goto work everyday
B = less time in jail/more free time/better job
C = no chance of parole
D = more time to your original sentence

a panel of people deciding leaves to much room for not holding hte person accountable. Well this guy really shouldnt get parole but we dont have anymore rooom in the jail so lets give him a shot.....that doesnt teach the inmates any thing
E = human wasted disposal detail
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Please provide evidence that prisoners who refuse to work are locked up in solitary.

Oh wait, you can't. Because you're full of sh!t. They may be confined to their cells for much of the day, but they are NOT locked in solitary.

A quick search found this for the state of Carolina:

General Statute 148-26 declares that:
all able-bodied prison inmates shall be required to perform diligently all work assignments provided for them. The failure of any inmate to perform such a work assignment may result in disciplinary action. Work assignments and employment shall be for the public benefit to reduce the cost of maintaining the inmate population while enabling inmates to acquire or retain skills and work habits needed to secure honest employment after their release.

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/WORK/workover.htm



And it is similar elsewhere. Nobody wants a prison where inmates are just sitting around doing nothing. Idle hands and all.

That means loss of privileges, not solitary confinement. There are LOTS of disciplinary actions a prison can take. Solitary is a drastic measure and limited in space. They don't use it just for prisoners who refuse to work.

Again, you're full of Sh1t

And what privileges do they lose? And what are these LOTS of disciplinary actions that a prison can take? Have them sit in a corner? Give them a fine? Take away the TV? Not give them dinner?

You're just ignorant.

Loss of TV.

Loss of exercise time/weight room.

Loss of visitation.

Loss of mail

Loss of phone privileges.

Loss of privileges to buy stuff.

Confinement to cell. (not solitary)

And many more little perks that they can take away.

I'm not the dumb fsck that did something so stupid I landed in prison. No, that's what you claim you are... even though you seem to know so little about it.

LOL you think with a prison of thousands, you can do specific disciplinary actions like this? The phone is in the cells area, so what are they going to do? When they see an inmate using the phone, beat them? Loss of mail is illegal. Loss of privileges to buy stuff... what are they going to do? Give the guy that runs the store (fellow inmate as well) a list of people not to sell to? LOL Weight room? have a guard stand at the door with a clipboard of who can or can't use the weights?

 

RichPLS

Senior member
Nov 21, 2004
477
0
0
Remember, all prisoners are not incarcerated for murder, some crimes are not even violence related.

I also believe that many drug sentences are unjust, and much reform needs to be made regarding this subject.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Just becase you are 'working' 40 hours a week does that mean you are being productive. I mean Im sure they can assign 4 inmates to mop and remop the same hallway all day but is that productive? does it add any value anywhere? If it takes only 10% (im being generous) of the prison population to keep the place clean and the inmates fed then what exactly are the other 90% doing?

Everything is supervisored by correction officers, and they're not going to assign 4 inmates to mop the same hallway, then have them hang around together the rest of the time.

And like i said, there are government contracts that have inmates working.

sounds like one of those how man inmates does it take to screw in a lightbulb jokes...

some how i cannot believe that the workers are A) doing something productive B) learning a trade

Why do so many return to jail?

Because 8/10 of those in there, are in there for drug related. Whether it's violence from drugs, robbing a store because of drugs, trafficking drugs, or possession.
 

Amused

Elite Member
Apr 14, 2001
56,515
16,237
146
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Please provide evidence that prisoners who refuse to work are locked up in solitary.

Oh wait, you can't. Because you're full of sh!t. They may be confined to their cells for much of the day, but they are NOT locked in solitary.

A quick search found this for the state of Carolina:

General Statute 148-26 declares that:
all able-bodied prison inmates shall be required to perform diligently all work assignments provided for them. The failure of any inmate to perform such a work assignment may result in disciplinary action. Work assignments and employment shall be for the public benefit to reduce the cost of maintaining the inmate population while enabling inmates to acquire or retain skills and work habits needed to secure honest employment after their release.

http://www.doc.state.nc.us/WORK/workover.htm



And it is similar elsewhere. Nobody wants a prison where inmates are just sitting around doing nothing. Idle hands and all.

That means loss of privileges, not solitary confinement. There are LOTS of disciplinary actions a prison can take. Solitary is a drastic measure and limited in space. They don't use it just for prisoners who refuse to work.

Again, you're full of Sh1t

And what privileges do they lose? And what are these LOTS of disciplinary actions that a prison can take? Have them sit in a corner? Give them a fine? Take away the TV? Not give them dinner?

You're just ignorant.

Loss of TV.

Loss of exercise time/weight room.

Loss of visitation.

Loss of mail

Loss of phone privileges.

Loss of privileges to buy stuff.

Confinement to cell. (not solitary)

And many more little perks that they can take away.

I'm not the dumb fsck that did something so stupid I landed in prison. No, that's what you claim you are... even though you seem to know so little about it.

LOL you think with a prison of thousands, you can do specific disciplinary actions like this? The phone is in the cells area, so what are they going to do? When they see an inmate using the phone, beat them? Loss of mail is illegal. Loss of privileges to buy stuff... what are they going to do? Give the guy that runs the store (fellow inmate as well) a list of people not to sell to? LOL Weight room? have a guard stand at the door with a clipboard of who can or can't use the weights?

Prisons can and do limit these activities every day.

The more you talk, the more obvious it is that you're full of sh!t.
 

Looney

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
21,938
5
0
Prisons can and do limit these activities every day.

The more you talk, the more obvious it is that you're full of sh!t.

LOL and how do you know this? Again, how do they regulate all these 'disciplinary' actions? And what happens when you break one of these? You get more disciplinary actions? LOL

You may think that i care about what you believe, but i don't. If you really think you know how things work, then go ahead and keep believing it. I'm sure life is a lot easier thinking you already know everything than having to learn things.
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Nik
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"

Nik, that's been tried. It fails.

The majority of prisoners will be returned to society. Simply confining them for years does nothing to rehabilitate them. In fact, it just makes them better criminals.

Teaching them a trade, work ethics, an education and keeping them in line with a system of rewards and punishments works far better.

Also, the number one opponents of a system like yours are prison guards themselves. Without privileges and rewards, prisoners have little incentive to behave.

We just need to be much, much more harsh on them. Crack down. Crack them over the back of the head if they don't comply or don't behave. I mean seriously. We're not dealing with little children here. We're dealing with adults who have the capacity for reason. I don't see how "behave or we'll beat your fvckin ass!" isn't a motivator. :confused:

Then again... I'm an asshole. ;)
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Nik
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"

Nik, that's been tried. It fails.

The majority of prisoners will be returned to society. Simply confining them for years does nothing to rehabilitate them. In fact, it just makes them better criminals.

Teaching them a trade, work ethics, an education and keeping them in line with a system of rewards and punishments works far better.

Also, the number one opponents of a system like yours are prison guards themselves. Without privileges and rewards, prisoners have little incentive to behave.

We just need to be much, much more harsh on them. Crack down. Crack them over the back of the head if they don't comply or don't behave. I mean seriously. We're not dealing with little children here. We're dealing with adults who have the capacity for reason. I don't see how "behave or we'll beat your fvckin ass!" isn't a motivator. :confused:

Then again... I'm an asshole. ;)

no beat downs just tasers
 

NikPreviousAcct

No Lifer
Aug 15, 2000
52,763
1
0
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Nik
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"

Nik, that's been tried. It fails.

The majority of prisoners will be returned to society. Simply confining them for years does nothing to rehabilitate them. In fact, it just makes them better criminals.

Teaching them a trade, work ethics, an education and keeping them in line with a system of rewards and punishments works far better.

Also, the number one opponents of a system like yours are prison guards themselves. Without privileges and rewards, prisoners have little incentive to behave.

We just need to be much, much more harsh on them. Crack down. Crack them over the back of the head if they don't comply or don't behave. I mean seriously. We're not dealing with little children here. We're dealing with adults who have the capacity for reason. I don't see how "behave or we'll beat your fvckin ass!" isn't a motivator. :confused:

Then again... I'm an asshole. ;)

no beat downs just tasers

Bah, wussy! Night sticks, cattle prods, and white-hot burning coals, bitch!

:p
 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Prisons can and do limit these activities every day.

The more you talk, the more obvious it is that you're full of sh!t.

LOL and how do you know this? Again, how do they regulate all these 'disciplinary' actions? And what happens when you break one of these? You get more disciplinary actions? LOL

You may think that i care about what you believe, but i don't. If you really think you know how things work, then go ahead and keep believing it. I'm sure life is a lot easier thinking you already know everything than having to learn things.

you are an idiot.

no gym is easy = cant leave cell during rec
no commisary is easy = spending account frozen(there is no cash transactions)
no tv is easy = hey we just took your tv
no visitation is easy = hey go home he cant have any visitors
no phone is easy = disable pin number



if thats not enough for you then we can do things like add days/weeks/months to your sentence and give you toilet cleaning detail. If that is still not enough we can recommend you for death penalty.

 

gigapet

Lifer
Aug 9, 2001
10,005
0
76
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: gigapet
Originally posted by: Nik
Originally posted by: Amused
Originally posted by: Nik
Prison should be a cold, lifeless cell for 23 hours out of the day. The 1 hour out of the cell should be split up and used for meals only. The only other time they should be allowed out of their cell is to volunteer their time to help clean the prison, work in the kitchen or laundry room, or otherwise accomplish tasks under oppressive supervision that help the prison function more efficiently. TV, cable, or satellite. Contact with the outside world should consist of written literature like news papers, books, and magazines. No phone calls. No visitors.

Make prisoners wish they'd never committed the crime to begin with, not get out and go "sh|t you mean I have to WORK in order to get all the perks I had in jail? Fvck that, I'm gonna mug an old lady, go back to prison, and continue to leech off society!"

Nik, that's been tried. It fails.

The majority of prisoners will be returned to society. Simply confining them for years does nothing to rehabilitate them. In fact, it just makes them better criminals.

Teaching them a trade, work ethics, an education and keeping them in line with a system of rewards and punishments works far better.

Also, the number one opponents of a system like yours are prison guards themselves. Without privileges and rewards, prisoners have little incentive to behave.

We just need to be much, much more harsh on them. Crack down. Crack them over the back of the head if they don't comply or don't behave. I mean seriously. We're not dealing with little children here. We're dealing with adults who have the capacity for reason. I don't see how "behave or we'll beat your fvckin ass!" isn't a motivator. :confused:

Then again... I'm an asshole. ;)

no beat downs just tasers

Bah, wussy! Night sticks, cattle prods, and white-hot burning coals, bitch!

:p


i'll give you the night sticks and cattle prods but coals are a fire hazard!
 

NakaNaka

Diamond Member
Aug 29, 2000
6,304
1
0
Originally posted by: Hardcore
Originally posted by: Amused
I think prison inmates should be made to work and produce something and the proceeds go towards their expenses.

Korea has this... and the US was crying that it was similar to slave labor, and that it's not fair for normal companies that needs to compete with these.

Crying? It's true. It turns prison into a damn concentration camp. Tell me - what's the difference between that and the Nazi's using the Jews to make products during WWII?
 

PingSpike

Lifer
Feb 25, 2004
21,747
579
126
Originally posted by: Phoenix86
Originally posted by: Amused
I think prison inmates should be made to work and produce something and the proceeds go towards their expenses.

What about the competition with the private sector for those jobs?

I agree in concept, but implementation can go awry if say they were allowed to do road construction vs. road clean up.

Why? Roads are paid for by taxpayer money. Its not the states jobs to prop up private sectors like construction companies, or provide jobs or revenue streams for private companies. Tax payers also pay for prisons.

I'm not seeing a problem.