What would you guys do in my situation? RX8 intake problem.

[HumblePie]

So I've owned my '04 model RX8 since 2005. About 4 years ago the ignition coils went out while I was driving. Which stopped the spark plugs and in turn made the engine fling too much gas into the cat. As a result the cat turned itself to slag and everything came back up through the engine and intake.

Luckily the engine and cat was under warranty. The intake system wasn't. So the dealer replaces the engine and cat and hands me back the car. I start to take off driving it and immediately notice that my car will NOT go beyond 4000 rpm. If I try to force it the damn thing will stall out and flood the engine. So at the time I gave it back to the dealership. They told me that the whole problem was my SSV being stuck and to fix it would require a replacement of the whole lower intake manifold. About $1600 in parts and another $1500 in labor. So I looked up online what the SSV (secondary shutter valve) was and found that this was actually a common problem with the 04-05 models of the RX8 of having it get stuck in many situations. The valve is not like normal header valves on in a piston engine. It's a long solid piece of aluminum with holes drilled in it. It sits in the lower intake manifold and an actuating arm spins it open and closed. It's not something that would easily crack or be damage. However, carb buildup can cause it to stick either open or close. If stuck closed, then that valve would never open. That valve is suppose to open at 4000 rpm or thereabouts.

I was told it was a time consuming job, but easy enough to pull it out, clean it, and put it back in to have the problem solved by the RX8Club forums I was reading the details about the problem from. I asked the dealer at the time if they would just clean it and they refused. I called several more and was given the same refusal. All of them wanted to do the bigger job of replacing the entire intake system instead of just cleaning 1 part. I was a bit pissed, but figured I might as well do it myself later when I could spare the 10+ hours it would take to do the job. It takes that long because of the location of reaching the valve means moving a ton of shit out of the way to get at it. So lots of things have to be disconnected and moved whether the engine is dropped or not.

Still the car has been driveable as long as I never went above 4K rpms. Fastforward in time to 6 months ago. Yes, I waited a LONG time to try and fix this problem. Mainly because I had a second car to drive and didn't really have the time to invest in doing the job. I also moved from Houston back to SA.

So 6 months ago I decided to finally tackle this stuck SSV problem I have had. But I didn't have the time. Again called around and finally found a shop that would JUST do the labor and clean the sucker for $300. $300 is a FAR cry in difference from $3k+ costs most others wanted.

So I told the shop I wanted the SSV cleaned, put back in, and made sure it was turning correctly. I get my car back and what happens? Same thing. Car is still hesitating at 4K rpm. I went to the shop and was like "wtf?" The people at the front of the shop told me it was still doing this because the rest of the intake system was still carbed up and would need to be cleaned. They also showed me the photos of the SSV cleaned before they put it back in to show me they had done the work I asked.

I asked them how much for the full cleaning and they said it would be about $1000 to do it. I didn't have the cash at the time and drove off.

Fastforward again to last Thursday. I have the extra money to finally go back to the shop and have them do what they recommended. So I drop it off and let them have at it. I gave them a call Monday and asked what the status and ETA on it was and how it was coming along. They told me they dropped the engine on Friday and had it all taken apart. But they needed the gasket set that mounts the lower air intake back onto the engine block. They had to order that from a dealer for $125 since they couldn't find it elsewhere. The guy also told me that he doesn't think cleaning the rest of the intake will solve the problem now at this point and that he recommended replacing it all. Something I was trying to avoid.

I am thinking, this doesn't sound right and told him I would come over and check everything out.

So last night I went over a few schematics and videos and what not from the RX8club forum. I was damn near 100% certain that it was still a sticking SSV issue. So I go into their shop today and see the guts of my car completely taken apart. The guy in the front of the shop I had been talking with just let me talk with the tech. The tech really didn't seem to know what he was suppose to be doing. Not that he didn't know WHAT to do, just not sure what problem needed fixing. I asked if the SSV was still sticking. He said he didn't know but he didn't think so.

I said it should freely be moving by hand if you turn it or move the actuating arm manually. If it doesn't then it's still sticking. If the SSV is moving correctly, then the other possible problems as to why it is no longer turning is that the actuating arm is no longer holding a vacuum seal. (The arm uses air pressure from a solenoid to turn the valve on and off). If the seal is fine, then the solenoid is not firing correctly. So I walk up to the intake manifold and try to spin the SSV. Guess what? Doesn't budge.

So I have him pull out the SSV from it's housing. The top of it is squeaky clean. He flips it over and on the far bottom side there is gunk on it. At which point I look into the housing and sure as shit there is a chewed up bubble gum size peice of black carbon gunk in the very back bottom of the housing that was making the damn SSV stick. Which means the LAST time when I had brought it in, the tech did not take the 30 seconds of work it would have taken to LOOK inside the housing and clean that one spot off. If the last tech had done so, I wouldn't have needed to bring my car in because the damn SSV would not have been stuck anymore.

Needless to say, I am a bit pissed. I stuck paying for extra cleaning I didn't need and a gasket that I didn't need to have replaced either if the intake manifold wasn't taken off. So I'm stuck paying an extra $1164 bucks (after taxes) for shit I didn't need done if the shop had done the right job in the first place. Sure the shop is saying they'll make sure it's worth my money because they are going to clean every inch of the intake system out along with the injector ports and everything else since the engine is already dropped.

Are they doing extra work? Yah. But did it really need to be done to get my car running? No. Sure the extra cleaning will certainly help with the overall performance, but I can't help but feel a bit jipped over this situation. Mainly all because the front office guys could not effectively communicate the work I wanted done back to the tech doing the job.

Should I suck it up? Or should I at least try to get $300 knocked off from the previous work that wasn't done? right now I'm not going to argue because I don't want them screwing up my car. Once it's all put back together though I'm trying to decide if I should make a stink over the whole thing. The other problem is there isn't that many good and cheap places to go to around here. I've had plenty of problems with dealership shops that were far worse than this situation. Trust me.

 

[slag]

If it was me, I'd refuse to pay for the work that was not needed. If they choose to pursue you in small claims court, you can explain that they did not do what they said they had and that the problem was not related to what they said needed to happen. Any judge should side with you.

 

[Black2na]

I say talk to the owner and see if you can come to an agreement since most of it is labor see what they will do 300 off for an improper job before hand seems fair

 

[phucheneh]

I'm mildly confused because I know dick-all about rotaries.

Can you kind of itemize the cost of the repairs? What was the deal behind the jump from 300 to 1000 bucks?

Frankly, it doesn't sound like you should have paid anyone a dime. The engine ate itself and was replaced under warranty. The engine did not run right because they swapped old parts over without inspecting them.

The buck(s) literally should've stopped right there.

 

[HumblePie]

I'm mildly confused because I know dick-all about rotaries.

Can you kind of itemize the cost of the repairs? What was the deal behind the jump from 300 to 1000 bucks?

Frankly, it doesn't sound like you should have paid anyone a dime. The engine ate itself and was replaced under warranty. The engine did not run right because they swapped old parts over without inspecting them.

The buck(s) literally should've stopped right there.

Hrmm let me explain away your confusion. Mazda extended the warranty for the RX8's for the original 04-05 models for the engine and catalytic converter ONLY. One of the MAJOR flaws of the 04-05 models of the RX8 is the placement of the ignition coils. They are in a spot where there is zero air ventilation and next to a hot spot coming off the engine. Since they are hot parts themselves being that they transform electrical voltages downward for the spark plugs, they fail far more often due to overheating issues than they should. The ignition coils are suppose to last 80K miles if my memory serves me. However, in the 04-05 models you are lucky if they last 25K miles.

This is exactly what happened to me when my car. Ignition coils failed which caused an engine failure and catalytic converter failure. Mazda replaced the engine and cat for free, but wouldn't touch anything else. I fought long and hard on them with this as I was arguing the engine and cat would never have failed if not for the faulty design placement of 1 part. And that by failing, it screwed over other systems in the car. I tried my damnest to get them to repair everything, but they refused. I was tempted to take them to court over the issue but never did. I wasn't sure how successful such an attempt would be.

From what I understand, there were several major design issue problems with that first production run of the RX8. So much so, that Mazda pretty much wrote off any complaints made from owners of those. In complaint tracking, they stopped tracking for example. They fixed all those issues with the '06 release of the vehicle and beyond. But for us poor early adopting slobs, we got screwed and Mazda said they don't care if they get our business again. Which by the way is a reason I will NEVER buy another mazda ever again nor recommend them to anyone. Ever.

Okay, as to further the explanation of what went wrong with the intake, you need to know how the intake works. In a common piston style engine, each cylinder of the engine has an intake port and exhaust port. Each port has a valve that opens and closes as needed to either let air in, or to let air out. The air flowing to each port is controlled by a carburetor or something similar.

In a rotary engine, there is just one giant chamber instead of multiple piston chambers in a conventional engine. As such, to get more power more fuel with the proper amount of air is thrown into the chamber at once. That gets the engine to spin faster with a bigger detonation from a larger mixture of fuel + air in the chamber.

Unlike a normal engine with multiple ports going to each piston on the engine and a control for all those ports, the rotary engines basically have one giant port coming in that splits off right before the engine into a couple of channels. These channels have shutter valves that are essentially a rotating aluminum rod that sits perpendicular in the way of the air channel with a hole drilled through the middle of the rod that lines up with the air channel tube. This is a simple explanation but accurate. The rod or valve as you call it spins around to either allow air to pass through the hole drilled through it or not. There are a couple more floating valves lower in the intake system that fine tune the air flow, but the main valves are the one I'm talking about.

These valves open up at specific RPM thresholds. The secondary shutter valve doesn't open until 4000 RPM on the engine. This because the extra air is not needed until that point. The engine doesn't need to toss in extra fuel for more power to spin the engine faster until that point. There is another valve that opens again around 7000 rpm if I'm not mistaken.

On my car, because of the failure from the cat and engine, a bunch of gunk was spewed backwards back out air intake. Still, this is usually NOT a problem with the RX8, because redlining the engine will typically force enough air through (so long as the valves are able to spin open) to basically self clean the actual air intake tubes of any carbon build that may occur. However, once a valve does get stuck closed, this can't occur and more and more carbon does build up making performance worse over time. Still, making the valves UNSTUCK again will fix all that eventually as the car can then begin the process of self cleaning to a degree. Some carb build up would possibly remain, but not enough to restrict air flow to affect performance.

The problem is I KNEW which valve was stuck and why. I paid a shop to fix the stuck valve from sticking. They said they did but actually didn't do a thorough enough job to fix the sticking issue. Instead they blamed the problem on a clog in the intake system elsewhere. Which was not the case as I found out today.

 

[amdhunter]

I fear the day my 8 starts giving me trouble.
The 04s and 05s seem to have a special place in hell reserved for them. I'm hoping my model is late enough to give me a long hassle free life (...or 80k miles.)

 

[Wingznut]

I say talk to the owner and see if you can come to an agreement since most of it is labor see what they will do 300 off for an improper job before hand seems fair

Yeah, the owner is going to be your best chance of success.

Did you ever replace your coils and plugs?

(2005 Shinka RX-8 owner here. )

 

[HumblePie]

Yeah, the owner is going to be your best chance of success.

Did you ever replace your coils and plugs?

(2005 Shinka RX-8 owner here. )

I replace them every 25K miles now on my own. I do not wait for them to fail. If you know where to shop you can get all 4 coils and 4 plugs for $200 shipped. Just did that procedure in July, but I haven't been driving much since then.

 

[HumblePie]

Looks like I'll have to stop by the shop again. The front guy says the solenoid for the valve is not working. He didn't elaborate. I want to verify for myself that the solenoid is BAD, and nothing something stupid like the wiring harness is loose or got dirt in it. I do not want to pay even more if I don't have to.

 

[HumblePie]

Yeah, the owner is going to be your best chance of success.

Did you ever replace your coils and plugs?

(2005 Shinka RX-8 owner here. )

Things you should know about the RX8, especially the 04-05 models.

If you have an 04-05 model and do not have the standard transmission or the grand touring package on the auto transmission you NEED to get that second oil cooler installed. You will kill your engine in any form of hot weather. This isn't a problem with 06 models as twin oil coolers are standard from that point on out.

Ignition coils problems. If you have an 04-05 model the ignition coils are placed in a very bad spot. The coils generate a lot of heat and where they are places doesn't allow that heat to dissipate very quickly. As such they fail often. When they do, that spark plug they are attached to will no longer spark. With no sparks, that means the engine is not burning fuel and is instead tossing it back into the cat converter. There are 4 plugs, with 2 for each rotor. If one set of plugs fail for one rotor, the other will still "force" the other to spin. Which will send crap back into your cat while driving. Many people either replace the coils more often or have taken to moving the coils to a different place in the engine compartment, or have mounted a fan/cooling system for the coils.

Engine flooding problems with the spark plugs. Too many people don't properly warm up their engine before turning it off. Pulling out the car from the garage and into the drive way to wash it off is going to have huge potential to flood the engine. Any time the engine floods, you have a huge potential for messing up the spark plugs. Best bet is to make sure you rev your engine to 3K rpm's and turn it while the engine is still revved. This forces everything out while the engine is shutting down and prevents any possible form of flooding.

Speaking of also bad problems with the spark plugs. The car more efficient in some ways than normal engines and less in others. Because there is a potential for not everything being burned correctly or long enough before the chamber cycles in the engine, there is a potential for carbons to build up in the engine, air intake, and exhaust. The good thing is a hard redline while driving will typically cause the engine to force so much air through it, that is literally self cleans eveything. Those that don't redline their engines once in awhile will find carbon build up and deposits a huge problem. The most notable form will be caked over spark plugs which will noticeably rob performance from the vehicle.

Crappy tail light sealant on assembly. There are many ways to fix this problem and getting a replacement tail light is not the answer. They were just designed poorly to seal on to the frame of the car. As a result water and condensation get inside. It has the potential to short out your lights. There are MANY how to do it yourself instructions and video fixes for this issue. The simplest is to use window weather stripping and silicon sealant. Just take off the tail light, strip off the crap already there, place the weather stripping around the edge of the back side opening and seal them down. Then replace the tail lights back on the car. No more problems on that issue after that.

Crappy visors. The visors are glued in the back and the glue used has a low melting point. Which if you are in the south, like I am, the glue to the back of the visor is going to melt. Making the visor fall apart. Which will make the visor fall off the metal rod it is attached to. Best fix is to be preventative and use a better glue on the back side of the visor at the seem before hand. Anything with a higher melting point will work.

Bad sensor on the radiator overflow bottle. Mazda in their infinite design wisdom has put a crappy radiator sensor molded onto the overflow bottle of the radiator. The sensor they've used so far is a piece of crap that eventually shorts itself out. The problem is there is no replacing just the sensor which would be cheap to do. Instead you have to replace the whole bottle and a bit of other things. From a dealer that's about $400 worth of work to "fix" something that really isn't a major problem with the car. Most people, like myself, just disconnect the sensor and keep an eye on the coolant level manually everytime we add oil to the car. Adding oil is something you have to do anyhow every few gas tank fillups with RX8's so the extra quick look on the coolant level isn't a big deal. It's a huge annoyance for this sensor problem even if the problem is a minor one.

Airbag light will come on quite often because the wiring harness for either airbag under the seats of the car comes loose very easily. It's a bit stupid that the connections for the harness are right where people put their feet in the back sear and are so exposed. If the light comes on, you'll have to get under the seats and fiddle with the wiring harness to turn the light off.

04-05 models have a problem with the oil overflow tank. It actually shares a line opening with the air intake system. Which is RETARDED to say the least. This isn't a problem unless you fill the oil all the way to the max. NEVER DO THIS in the older model vehicles unless you've taken the time to install an oil catch can in the proper place. Otherwise the oil will spill over into the intake system and eventually clog up your valves. This is the number 1 issue that causes clogged secondary shutter valve (SSV) issues with the RX8. Later models have solved this problem.

If you have an 05 model RX8 and didn't know these issues, I hope my post will make you check a few things to prevent future problems. Most of them are either very minor or preventable. But if left alone can cause a HUGE problem.

 

[AMCRambler]

Yikes. Well, get her fixed and back together as best you can with said shop and then negotiate that 300. Especially since you're also helping their tech diagnose the problems when that's his job. Explain to the owner he's buying his tech an education on how to fix the next one that comes through the door.

 

[AMCRambler]

Oh yeah and then sell that turd.

 

[Wingznut]

Things you should know about the RX8, especially the 04-05 models...

Thanks for the advice... But yeah, I'm already aware of all that.

I bought it with 36k... Soon after, I resealed the taillights and replaced the coils/plugs. Next time it needs coils, I'll either spring for the BHR setup, or make my own... Then I won't have to worry about them again.
Otherwise, I've had no other problems with the car. It's an absolute dream to drive.

 

[HumblePie]

Well, as an update, I paid the full price. The guy I had been talking with at the front desk WAS the owner. He was obstinate about it. So I basically paid $300 once and then $1000 later for the same thing + a bit more. Still pissed off about it and he lost a future customer as well as any good word I may have spread for his business.

So anyone in San Antonio, I DO NOT recommend going to Bring Your Own Parts.

Well as a side note, the car runs great now. Their second job was not half-assed liked the first job. I made sure of it and the intake is completely de-carbed.

Now, I need to go and take care of some of those other "problems" I have. The solenoid did go bad for being locked up for too long on a stuck SSV. So I ordered a replacement for $25 that I'll put in.

I also need to fix my heater knob. This is another issue with RX8s that is stupid. The circuit board for the heater/cooler control knob has bad solder. You have to remove the radio and then resolder 3 joints for the knob to the control board. Whomever made the original circuit board just used crappy solder that cracks over time. Easy fix, just annoying.

I still have one window visor to fix as well. As well as replacing the radiator overflow tank. I also have the rear right TPS monitor to replace as the battery went bad. Not that I need to replace it, I just hate having that stupid light on my dashboard.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

The lesson here is to not continue driving a car that is not firing on one cylinder/chamber.

This story repeates itself the world over regardless of platform.

 

[HumblePie]

The lesson here is to not continue driving a car that is not firing on one cylinder/chamber.

This story repeates itself the world over regardless of platform.

Except with an RX8 you can't tell if the ignition coils are not always firing when they start to go bad. Well, you might get a noticeable misfire on occasion, but it's hard to tell if it's bad gas, an ignition coil problem, or a spark plug problem.

 

[HowlerMonkey]

It only has two chambers.

If 50% of your engine is not firing, you should notice it.

Now before you say "rotaries are different" know that I've been building them since 1981.

 

[Wingznut]

Yeah, it's not hard to feel a misfire in an RX-8... I knew it right away, when my coils went out.

 

[amdhunter]

Thanks for the advice... But yeah, I'm already aware of all that.

I bought it with 36k... Soon after, I resealed the taillights and replaced the coils/plugs. Next time it needs coils, I'll either spring for the BHR setup, or make my own... Then I won't have to worry about them again.
Otherwise, I've had no other problems with the car. It's an absolute dream to drive.

SICK, R3 wheels and Shinka.
That is fucking beautiful. :wub:

 

[HumblePie]

Unfortunately, they go "bad" first and basically start messing up occasionally. It's not as if it's all or nothing. You'll have only a misfire here or there at first once your coils start going bad. Which is hard to tell if that misfire is due to bad gas or coils going bad or spark plugs going bad.

So instead of waiting around, I just replace them earlier than needed now on a schedule. I hit 30K miles, I replace the coils and plugs regardless now. $150 for all 4 coils and plugs which I can change myself easy enough.

 

[Mazdatech0895]

I'm a 9 year master tech for a mazda dealership. The ssv is about a 3 hour job to replace(replacement of manifold not needed) the reason that your car would not go over 4k is because they forgot to reset the crankshaft profile. The total repair cost if the ssv parts and labor is about $600 max. But before replacement of the ssv they are supose to clean it with what mazda calls "zoom zoom" cleaner. Plus the ssv is covered under the power train warranty.

 

[HumblePie]

I'm a 9 year master tech for a mazda dealership. The ssv is about a 3 hour job to replace(replacement of manifold not needed) the reason that your car would not go over 4k is because they forgot to reset the crankshaft profile. The total repair cost if the ssv parts and labor is about $600 max. But before replacement of the ssv they are supose to clean it with what mazda calls "zoom zoom" cleaner. Plus the ssv is covered under the power train warranty.

Tell that to Northpark Mazda in San Antonio or Legend Mazda. Or the Mazda Dealer I was using in Houston as for being part of the drive train warranty. Hell, I spoke directly with MazdaUSA over the phone and they said it wasn't covered. None of those dealerships would do just the SSV either. They all wanted to replace the entire lower manifold.

As for being stuck at 4K, I can assure you, the SSV was STUCK closed. It would not open. I couldn't even manually turn it by hand. Also, the auxillary ports were clogged shut.

All this crap I went through and had to pay a bunch of my hard earned money to fix is why I will NEVER buy another Mazda again nor recommend them. Nor will I ever buy a Ford so long as they have an interest in Mazda.

I'm quite the brand loyalty guy. You do good by me and I buy your stuff until you aren' so good by me. I'm also the type of person that used to work retail for a long time and I do my homework for shopping. So people that know me come to me for recommendations on all sorts of stuff before they buy. Co-workers, family, friends, and even previous customers I used to serve. So I hope that my word of mouth makes a financial dent in Mazda's bottom line eventually. And I'm not the only one either who has been screwed this way. Many of the original 04-05 purchasers of this car have been royally screwed over.

 

[lavaheadache]

take it as a lesson to work on your own car, that way you could have saved a bunch of your hard earned money making hard saved

 

[HumblePie]

take it as a lesson to work on your own car, that way you could have saved a bunch of your hard earned money making hard saved

Don't always have the ability nor time to drop the engine.

 

[digitalock]

I'm a 9 year master tech for a mazda dealership. The ssv is about a 3 hour job to replace(replacement of manifold not needed) the reason that your car would not go over 4k is because they forgot to reset the crankshaft profile. The total repair cost if the ssv parts and labor is about $600 max. But before replacement of the ssv they are supose to clean it with what mazda calls "zoom zoom" cleaner. Plus the ssv is covered under the power train warranty.

I have oil going into my intake on my 07 RX8. What is causing this?