What Will Happen When the US Government Economically Fails?

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Ignorance is bliss eh? You're so hung up on the word and can't see the forest for the trees.

Socialist policies and leanings don't instantly turn a capitalist state into a socialist or communist state. Just because Obama isn't calling for a full on socialist make-over of the US doesn't mean he doesn't have socialist leanings. It's a slippery slope as proven by the New Deal and the awful floodgates of social programs that have opened afterword which have solved absolutely nothing.

Ahh the good old slippery slope fallacy. Thanks for that one, it is in no way proven by the New Deal, because the US is not socialist. Every corporate tax break does not send us on the road to fascism, and neither does every progressive tax change send us on the road to socialism and communism. Stop being blinded by ideology, and try to understand the world for what it is, you'll thank yourself later.

To say the programs have solved absolutely nothing flies in the face of objective evidence to the contrary in terms of poverty rates, etc. You have been shown this before, but you continue to revel in your ignorance because reality conflicts with your ideology. It's time for you to wake up.

"While the general form of the argument involving a slippery slope is not valid, the conclusion it leads to is not necessarily wrong."

I can do this all day with you.

 

[Jaskalas]

Well there you go OP. The answer is that Duwelon and eskimospy will bicker over words until there is no more food on their plate. Same goes for the rest of the Republicans and Democrats.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas
Well there you go OP. The answer is that Duwelon and eskimospy will bicker over words until there is no more food on their plate. Same goes for the rest of the Republicans and Democrats.

Nah, i'm done. Eskimospy is an idiot savant who once he gets hung up on something is like an alligator, bites down and won't let go even if he's dead. He thinks calling Obama is a Socialist means that we either don't know what a socialist is or actually believe Obama is full on by the definition socialist, ready to turn the country 180 degrees. For someone who believes in gray areas, he can't see anything but black and white with some things.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Ignorance is bliss eh? You're so hung up on the word and can't see the forest for the trees.

Socialist policies and leanings don't instantly turn a capitalist state into a socialist or communist state. Just because Obama isn't calling for a full on socialist make-over of the US doesn't mean he doesn't have socialist leanings. It's a slippery slope as proven by the New Deal and the awful floodgates of social programs that have opened afterword which have solved absolutely nothing.

Ahh the good old slippery slope fallacy. Thanks for that one, it is in no way proven by the New Deal, because the US is not socialist. Every corporate tax break does not send us on the road to fascism, and neither does every progressive tax change send us on the road to socialism and communism. Stop being blinded by ideology, and try to understand the world for what it is, you'll thank yourself later.

To say the programs have solved absolutely nothing flies in the face of objective evidence to the contrary in terms of poverty rates, etc. You have been shown this before, but you continue to revel in your ignorance because reality conflicts with your ideology. It's time for you to wake up.

"While the general form of the argument involving a slippery slope is not valid, the conclusion it leads to is not necessarily wrong."

I can do this all day with you.

On last post, since the subtley was too much for you: Not every slippery slope is wrong, it's called an informal fallacy because it's not logical proof in the sense that if A then B, A, so B.

 

[ja1484]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Ignorance is bliss eh? You're so hung up on the word and can't see the forest for the trees.

Socialist policies and leanings don't instantly turn a capitalist state into a socialist or communist state. Just because Obama isn't calling for a full on socialist make-over of the US doesn't mean he doesn't have socialist leanings. It's a slippery slope as proven by the New Deal and the awful floodgates of social programs that have opened afterword which have solved absolutely nothing.

Ahh the good old slippery slope fallacy. Thanks for that one, it is in no way proven by the New Deal, because the US is not socialist. Every corporate tax break does not send us on the road to fascism, and neither does every progressive tax change send us on the road to socialism and communism. Stop being blinded by ideology, and try to understand the world for what it is, you'll thank yourself later.

To say the programs have solved absolutely nothing flies in the face of objective evidence to the contrary in terms of poverty rates, etc. You have been shown this before, but you continue to revel in your ignorance because reality conflicts with your ideology. It's time for you to wake up.

"While the general form of the argument involving a slippery slope is not valid, the conclusion it leads to is not necessarily wrong."

I can do this all day with you.

On last post, since the subtley was too much for you: Not every slippery slope is wrong, it's called an informal fallacy because it's not logical proof in the sense that if A then B, A, so B.

And none are necessarily right either. Please let it go. You're wandering off the thread.

 

[Kadarin]

LOL @ Duwelon thinking that "godlessness" is the wellspring of intolerance.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: Kadarin
LOL @ Duwelon thinking that "godlessness" is the wellspring of intolerance.

Dumb. I never said that.

 

[Jhhnn]

What will happen? The financial elite will have what they want, what they've strived for- the US govt in the palm of their hand.

WTF do you think trickledown economics disguised behind huge deficits are all about, anyway? benevolence?

Increasingly, neither the general public nor the govt have assets- they have debts, and debt maintenance obligations. When and if that gets out of hand, then you're pwned, like the Argentines or any other number of countries that have been forced into default. Since your currency is now greatly devalued, it means you have to spend even more to get what you need from the global economy, since you no longer produce what you need domestically...

The lifestyle of the general population collapses, and the relative power of the financial elite increases dramatically, because they own the govt, they call the tune. Their assets aren't just American, they're global, so one country's folly is another's fortune, and they make money no matter what.

Don't worry, though, because the same interests looting the economy are using a portion of the proceeds to finance the foundations and thinktanks of the Rightwing- it's their version of compassionate conservatism, they're tryin' to keep you happy... with less and less, but that's teh ebil Libruhls' fault, right?

 

[SigArms08]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
What will happen? The financial elite will have what they want, what they've strived for- the US govt in the palm of their hand.

WTF do you think trickledown economics disguised behind huge deficits are all about, anyway? benevolence?

Increasingly, neither the general public nor the govt have assets- they have debts, and debt maintenance obligations. When and if that gets out of hand, then you're pwned, like the Argentines or any other number of countries that have been forced into default. Since your currency is now greatly devalued, it means you have to spend even more to get what you need from the global economy, since you no longer produce what you need domestically...

The lifestyle of the general population collapses, and the relative power of the financial elite increases dramatically, because they own the govt, they call the tune. Their assets aren't just American, they're global, so one country's folly is another's fortune, and they make money no matter what.

Don't worry, though, because the same interests looting the economy are using a portion of the proceeds to finance the foundations and thinktanks of the Rightwing- it's their version of compassionate conservatism, they're tryin' to keep you happy... with less and less, but that's teh ebil Libruhls' fault, right?

If you believe that those interests don't have the Dems in their pocket as well, then you are blind. Our two party system was bought and paid for a long time ago.

 

[Evander]

Originally posted by: Naustica

Originally posted by: Evander
In a last grab the Govt. will grab seize your retirement accounts and tell you it's for your own good:
http://www.carolinajournal.com...lay_story.html?id=5081
Argentina, formerly one of the world's richest economies, did the same thing, and when crowds protested they got fired upon:
short:
http://www.nationalexpositor.com/index.php?news=1450
long:
http://video.google.com/videop...c+Collapse&hl=en&emb=1
I'd recommend checking out the long video if you have time - there are many parallels between Argentina's meltdown and that of the US

I didn't even click on your links because it's so ridiculous. Calling Argentina one of the world's richest economies? :laugh: That's like calling Mexico one of the world's richest country and superpower. Only thing Argentina has going for it is they have good beef, some minerals, and hot women.

I fear lot of things but nationalization of retirement accounts is not even on the radar.

http://www.britannica.com/EBch...rgentina/33120/Economy
"In the early decades of the 20th century, Argentina became the world?s leading exporter of corn, flax, and meat. However, the Great Depression of the 1930s considerably damaged the Argentine economy by reducing foreign trade. Between 1930 and 1980 Argentina fell from being one of the wealthiest countries in the world to ranking with the developing (Third World) nations."

 

[sandorski]

The US Government is a long way from Total Failure, but it sure is making up the distance fast right now. With the exception of the Clinton years and some of Bush Senior, US Fiscal Policy has been a disaster.

Surplus in Good Times, Deficit in Bad Times---it's really not that hard to remember.

 

[Whoozyerdaddy]

Let the government fail... In the long run it would be the best thing to ever happen to this country. People would realize that they are more important than the government. That they don't need the goverment. That, when push comes to shove, if you're prepared, the government is a convenience... nt a necesity.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Whoozyerdaddy
Let the government fail... In the long run it would be the best thing to ever happen to this country. People would realize that they are more important than the government. That they don't need the goverment. That, when push comes to shove, if you're prepared, the government is a convenience... nt a necesity.

If it did, you'd change your mind real fast.

 

[Fox5]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: ja1484

US National Debt is ~9 trillion plus. US money supply is ~15 trillion. Bailouts aplenty. Shrinking economic activity, imports far outstripping exports.

So forget the small shit like the Big 3 or the credit crunch. What to do when the US government runs out of money to spend on stupid ideas that won't solve these problems?

Discuss.

I can see the US declining slowly into a socialist welfare state where a Godless majority rules, yet things just get worse and worse while the solutions are always just the next election of more Godless men away. It's already happening. You won't get much spiritual inspiration from the left wing politicians and the support wing of the left, ie Hollywood and the like is becoming extremely anti-Christian.

Or, that decline could happen quickly with a massive scale terrorist attack such a dirty bomb in a few large cities causing our economy to grind to a halt or financial system to simply break down for awhile because most of downtown NYC is dead.

Number of atheists in Congress or the Presidency? Zero. (well, one guy says he's a 'nontheist', so maybe one)

I can't wait until we start electing some more godless people to federal office. Maybe when we stop having so many people in charge of our government that believe in a magical sky fairy we can improve our schools to the level in which the students that come out of them know the definition of 'socialism'. Tee hee.

Ignorance is bliss eh? You're so hung up on the word and can't see the forest for the trees.

Socialist policies and leanings don't instantly turn a capitalist state into a socialist or communist state. Just because Obama isn't calling for a full on socialist make-over of the US doesn't mean he doesn't have socialist leanings. It's a slippery slope as proven by the New Deal and the awful floodgates of social programs that have opened afterword which have solved absolutely nothing.

We're already pretty socialist. What's with that whole minimum wage thing? Effectively, it gives more money to the less well to do economic areas at the expense of the better off ones. Without it, we'd have our own 3rd world in our backyard.

And don't even get me started on the allocation of federal tax dollars. Some states receive upwards of $3 in federal taxes for every dollar they pay out.

We should be more capitalist and follow China's example. No minimum wage so rich areas are rich, and poor areas are truly poor. Additionally, disaster relief is more or less directly related to the tax income of an area. Imagine how bad hurricanes would be if each state had to fund its own disaster relief instead of leaning on the federal government for help.

That public education thing is pretty socialist too. As is medicare. That popular opinion voting is practical right out of Marx's writings. Everyone has an equal share/say in the government regardless or birth or merit, and then we all have to follow the general opinion? Sweet Communism.

BTW, the Argentina stuff in this thread...from what I recall of Argentinian history, they were doing pretty well when they were leaning socialist. It was only from the 50s and onwards when America began encouraging capitalist (as in pre great depression America capitalism) changes in Argentina that their economy really tanked. They only barely managed to halt the free-fall by nationalizing their resources.

 

[Xavier434]

Both socialism and capitalism are equally great and equally evil. They are nothing more than two ends of a set of extremes. The answer is not to endlessly bash one while promoting the other. The real answer is to continuously adapt with the times and balance the equation between the two. Therefore, leaning more towards socialism during a certain block of time is not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on how far you take it and it depends on the current problems/successes of a country during a particular time period.

That is why I will always disagree with anyone who believes that any degree of socialism is always pure evil no matter what. Likewise, I will also say the same about capitalism. The sooner everyone here comes to understand that the best we can do for this country is reach a proper state of balance then we will be leading ourselves to a much better state of living. Keep in mind that "balance" does not necessarily mean 50/50. The ratio which acts best for this country is forever changing.

 

[wwswimming]

Originally posted by: Kalvin00
The government won't run out of money, they'll just keep running the printing press.

But when the rest of the world refuses our dollars....well, then we have some fun times ahead.

i think the way this would happen is, in the form of an un-attended Treasury auction.

i think - Treasury auctions involve 15-20 large banks who buy the debt instruments & re-sell them, to investors, sovereign wealth funds (e.g. Saudi government), etc.

the best editorial i've seen on the $700 billion bank bailout announced approx. Sept. 19, was that it was to make sure that the US government doesn't have any un-attended T-Bill auctions in 2009.