What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Todd33

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: CycloWizard

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

:thumbsup:

One of the rare occassions when I have agreed with Todd33. He won't agree with the rest of my sentiment of course...

If they institute another hostile governmen to the US, then we'll just start bleeding them dry with sanctions again. If they start to develop WMD's and threatening us/their neighbors, we'll start bombing them again. Carrot or stick, their choice.

Sounds good to me. They can choose to elect hostile asshats, that's part of democracy (we did ). As long as we have real evidence of WMDs and not just a house of cards.

To quote Kerry (and I'm not a Kerry fan or a democrat), if we build nuclear bunker busters and dictate no other country can possess nuclear weapons, how likely is that going to happen? we cannot monitor each and every country and these programs can be carried out in a clandestine manner without knowledge. We didnt even know India was preparing to test a nuclear device.

Let alone us not being knowledgable about nuclear weapons development, what about countries who poke a thumb up the US nose and proceed to develop nuclear weapons and we cant do anything about it -> example North Korea?

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

More or less what I think. Iraq needs to be able to hold elections and its troops to defend its own country without outside aid. Getting their energy grid up and running is a bonus.

 

[onelove]

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

If this is the outcome, then the money and lives invested in the war would have been made essentially for nothing (ok, to depose Saddam and conduct our own inspection to satisfy ourselves there were no WMDs). Rumsfeld is not stupid. The point of this war was to establish a military presence on top of a strategic resource in a strategically important place (no, we are not stealing the oil, please don't oversimplify). The army bases we are building will provide a more economic means to project military power in the region.

Respectfully, it's naive to say you can just "get the fck out of there" as if its turning off a light. Iraq has degraded infrastructure, ill-functioning beaurocratic structures, and no accepted central government that has any power to hold without US backing. It will take a lot more time to make substantial progress to a sustainable situation. If up and left, Iraq would quickly fragment or descend into factional fighting/civil war. Like it or not, we have supplanted Saddam as the glue that miraculously holds together a country that was pieced together ad-hoc from vilayets the Ottoman Empire had ruled separately: Mosul, Basra and Baghdad; Kurd, Shia, Sunni.

Maybe Buuuush thinks he can distract AQ and islamic fundamentalists into fighting defensively. It might work in the short term, but I'd wager OBL and the longer-seeing elements of the movement recognize that the prize is attacking the US at home & I bet there's more of that in the pipeline.

 

[GreenMonkey]

Impose democracy is its self a contradiction in terms. The people have to choose deomocracy. That is the only way that it works.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:


About converting Iraq into a true free democratic society - I would say that it is a pipedream. But that's not precisely true.

This is what I always say: you CAN impose a drastic change of society. You CAN change any society over into something else.


By using the iron fist of violence to do so. Just look to history.

If you could convert people's religion you should be able to convert anywhere. Look at the countries that were forcibly converted to Christianity (many of which remain Christian to this day) during the Crusades...the Teutonic Knights...etc.

Or you can occupy the country for so long that the older folks (generally more rigid in their ways) all die off, and repress all of the opposing ideas. That would take, what, 20-30 years?


America isn't all about that. At least I hope it's not.

 

[Ethex]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex
As long as there is Terrorism we should have bases in the Middle East.

to serve our Imperialistic designs? even if our intention is not this, it will be perceived the world over as such. what do you say?

I say it will be perceived in Asia Minor as such. The rest of the world will see it as a strategic location as they always have

I dont believe you answered the question. How does our bases in Iraq make the world perceive of the country as Asia Minor? Are you in support of American Imperialism? Will the presence of our bases in Iraq not make the world think of America as an Imperialist nation?

I said nothing about Iraq. I am in Favor of American Imperialism


I don't believe you've answered your original question. What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq? You ask a baited question because you like to spew your proaganda but you have yet to answer it yourself.

 

[Genx87]

Your belief seems quite far-fetched, but they're your beliefs and I hope they are right.

You did not respond to the other two questions...

I was just messing with you. I didnt feel like getting into a flame war this morning. Try my on Mondays when I have a long work week ahead of me

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: Ethex

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex
As long as there is Terrorism we should have bases in the Middle East.

to serve our Imperialistic designs? even if our intention is not this, it will be perceived the world over as such. what do you say?

I say it will be perceived in Asia Minor as such. The rest of the world will see it as a strategic location as they always have

I dont believe you answered the question. How does our bases in Iraq make the world perceive of the country as Asia Minor? Are you in support of American Imperialism? Will the presence of our bases in Iraq not make the world think of America as an Imperialist nation?

I said nothing about Iraq. I am in Favor of American Imperialism


I don't believe you've answered your original question. What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq? You ask a baited question because you like to spew your proaganda but you have yet to answer it yourself.

I dont think we can win in Iraq. As aptly stated by many in our government, Iraq is a quagmire, or you can say, another Vietnam. There's no victory that can be sighted in the near future - near future meaning at least the next decade. I asked for other's opinion, as written in the title of my post.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: onelove

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

If this is the outcome, then the money and lives invested in the war would have been made essentially for nothing (ok, to depose Saddam and conduct our own inspection to satisfy ourselves there were no WMDs). Rumsfeld is not stupid. The point of this war was to establish a military presence on top of a strategic resource in a strategically important place (no, we are not stealing the oil, please don't oversimplify). The army bases we are building will provide a more economic means to project military power in the region.

Respectfully, it's naive to say you can just "get the fck out of there" as if its turning off a light. Iraq has degraded infrastructure, ill-functioning beaurocratic structures, and no accepted central government that has any power to hold without US backing. It will take a lot more time to make substantial progress to a sustainable situation. If up and left, Iraq would quickly fragment or descend into factional fighting/civil war. Like it or not, we have supplanted Saddam as the glue that miraculously holds together a country that was pieced together ad-hoc from vilayets the Ottoman Empire had ruled separately: Mosul, Basra and Baghdad; Kurd, Shia, Sunni.

Maybe Buuuush thinks he can distract AQ and islamic fundamentalists into fighting defensively. It might work in the short term, but I'd wager OBL and the longer-seeing elements of the movement recognize that the prize is attacking the US at home & I bet there's more of that in the pipeline.

I agree with most of your views. However, how likely is it that Iraqis would accept US military presence on their soil? Many Saudis are against the military bases on Saudi soil, and the government has asked the US to withdraw their forces from the country. Similarly, many nations are against the presence of foreign troops on their soil. Citizens of Okinawa have oft protested against American troops there (even if the reason they gave was the "alleged" rape carried out by American soldiers). Pakistanis are also vehemently against American troops in Pakistan.

Besides, whats stopping another Iraqi to rise up like Osama bin Laden and starting another movement (with violent reactions) to rid Iraq of "infidels" just as OBL's initial aim was the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia?

 

[1EZduzit]

And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

 

[glugglug]

George W. Bush says:

I don't think you can win it[the war on terror]

 

[earthman]

It will be a victory if we can stabilize the situation enough to withdraw the troops without spending another 200 billion dollars, getting 10000 more people killed and having the 5 people left in the region who don't hate us not start hating us.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

If you dont want to answer my question or share your opinion, please dont crap in my thread and go troll elsewhere.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

If you dont want to answer my question or share your opinion, please dont crap in my thread and go troll elsewhere.

But I did answer your question.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: dahunan
I sort of hate to say this.. but I wan 3 large US military bases built in Iraq and our forces to never leave.. That will = victory.

why do you want that?

Because that's what it takes to justify the loss of over 1000 Americans and the projected $200 billion cost of the war. I doubt we get it, and I would settle for a fair election and let the cards fall where they may after that.

Now answer mine. I've already read in another thread of yours that we should just get out ASAP. As an American citizen and taxpayer I don't think we should until we at least give the Iraqis one chance at Democracy and I find it hard to believe another American could believe differntly. That is why I am wondering if you are an American citizen. Are you?

I feel we owe that to all the dead people, American as well as Iraqi. If they return to chaos, then so be it but we owe them once chance to be heard as to what the MAJORITY of Iraqis want. Why are you against that?

 

[Ethex]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: Ethex


I said nothing about Iraq. I am in Favor of American Imperialism


I don't believe you've answered your original question. What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq? You ask a baited question because you like to spew your proaganda but you have yet to answer it yourself.

I dont think we can win in Iraq. As aptly stated by many in our government, Iraq is a quagmire, or you can say, another Vietnam. There's no victory that can be sighted in the near future - near future meaning at least the next decade. I asked for other's opinion, as written in the title of my post.

I don't think you understood the question. It was not "Can we win in Iraq?" it was "What will count as a Victory for you in Iraq?". For me Victory has already been achived in Iraq. Let's get the African's to pull their weight in the world and help out and get our boys to the next country that needs invading, Syria, The Sudan, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Iran, Heck even back to Afghanistan. You use words like we, us, and our but I don't think you are part of we, us, and our. I would pose 1EZduzit's question to you again and even expand on it. Are you even an American citizen?? And are you even living in The U.S.??

 

[glugglug]

Anyone who the Iraq war will cost an "estimated $200 billion" is on crack, including our Chimp Executive. At a minimum, you can add a digit to that figure.

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: earthman
It will be a victory if we can stabilize the situation enough to withdraw the troops without spending another 200 billion dollars, getting 10000 more people killed and having the 5 people left in the region who don't hate us not start hating us.

 

[onelove]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: onelove

Originally posted by: Todd33
Let them elect a government, no matter who it is. Train their troops, then get the fck out of there. No permanent bases, no stakes in there oil. We need to show the Arab world we are not taking their natural resources or occupying there land.

If this is the outcome, then the money and lives invested in the war would have been made essentially for nothing (ok, to depose Saddam and conduct our own inspection to satisfy ourselves there were no WMDs). Rumsfeld is not stupid. The point of this war was to establish a military presence on top of a strategic resource in a strategically important place (no, we are not stealing the oil, please don't oversimplify). The army bases we are building will provide a more economic means to project military power in the region.

Respectfully, it's naive to say you can just "get the fck out of there" as if its turning off a light. Iraq has degraded infrastructure, ill-functioning beaurocratic structures, and no accepted central government that has any power to hold without US backing. It will take a lot more time to make substantial progress to a sustainable situation. If up and left, Iraq would quickly fragment or descend into factional fighting/civil war. Like it or not, we have supplanted Saddam as the glue that miraculously holds together a country that was pieced together ad-hoc from vilayets the Ottoman Empire had ruled separately: Mosul, Basra and Baghdad; Kurd, Shia, Sunni.

Maybe Buuuush thinks he can distract AQ and islamic fundamentalists into fighting defensively. It might work in the short term, but I'd wager OBL and the longer-seeing elements of the movement recognize that the prize is attacking the US at home & I bet there's more of that in the pipeline.

I agree with most of your views. However, [1] how likely is it that Iraqis would accept US military presence on their soil? Many Saudis are against the military bases on Saudi soil, and the government has asked the US to withdraw their forces from the country. Similarly, many nations are against the presence of foreign troops on their soil. Citizens of Okinawa have oft protested against American troops there (even if the reason they gave was the "alleged" rape carried out by American soldiers). Pakistanis are also vehemently against American troops in Pakistan.

Besides, [2]whats stopping another Iraqi to rise up like Osama bin Laden and starting another movement (with violent reactions) to rid Iraq of "infidels" just as OBL's initial aim was the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia?

[1] Nobody asked the Iraqi people to accept US on their soil & the insurgency has so many threads, that some aspect of it will continue into the foreseeable future. The US is using its military to fight them as they arise. Its just like Vietnam in that we kill 10 of theirs to 1 of ours & it can continue as long as the US has the political will (and the financial means) to sustain it. Kids still sign up to go fight for their country & people are ready to re-elect Buuuush cuz he's a "strong leader".

Even the theory supporting Iraq is similar: preventing another country from being a "falling domino" to communism vs. "installing a democracy in the heart of the middle east"

I'm not saying the situations are identical, but many important aspects are the same. On the positive, at least here, the gains to be had are worth something vis-a-vis strategic resources and projecting power in an area we wish to control.

[2] As to another OBL, yes, our actions will foster continued/increased hate of the US. OBL had a long time to organize and rich sponsors to aid him in becoming a folk hero of sorts. The danger is not that another one of him will arise (there's no shortage of replacements for him), but that the idea that he represents will continue to be viewed as valid in the eyes of poor islamic people.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

If you dont want to answer my question or share your opinion, please dont crap in my thread and go troll elsewhere.

But I did answer your question.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: dahunan
I sort of hate to say this.. but I wan 3 large US military bases built in Iraq and our forces to never leave.. That will = victory.

why do you want that?

Because that's what it takes to justify the loss of over 1000 Americans and the projected $200 billion cost of the war. I doubt we get it, and I would settle for a fair election and let the cards fall where they may after that.

Now answer mine. I've already read in another thread of yours that we should just get out ASAP. As an American citizen and taxpayer I don't think we should until we at least give the Iraqis one chance at Democracy and I find it hard to believe another American could believe differntly. That is why I am wondering if you are an American citizen. Are you?

I feel we owe that to all the dead people, American as well as Iraqi. If they return to chaos, then so be it but we owe them once chance to be heard as to what the MAJORITY of Iraqis want. Why are you against that?

Here are your answers. I do believe we should get out of Iraq ASAP. And yes, my tax dollars are also going towards sustaining this utterly useless war.

I dont think we can bring stability and peace to Iraq. The Iraqis view us as an occupying force, an imperialist force and most importantly, a non-Muslim force. They will NOT accept the dictates of any country, least likely the United States which is considered to be the biggest supporter of Israel, the nation which has angered the entire Arab populace (including Iraq) with respect to its dealing with Palestine.

The evidence is in front of you. More soldiers die every month than the preceding month. Why so? If Iraqis are willing to embrace Democracy, then this would not happen. We can discredit the magnitude of the insurgency by saying a few bunch of terrorists are carrying out suicide bombings. I differ. Every week I hear of an Iraqi city I had never heard of before taking part in anti-coalition activities. I ask you, had you ever heard of Moqtada Al-Sadr before we invaded Iraq? I had never heard of him, or of Falluja or Samarra. All there are highly restive cities, with a sizeable population who are just not accepting US dictates.

I believe the solution is for Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab nations to replace the COALITION roll forces and the United States completely rid Iraq of its presence. Any Westerner would be a target by the Iraqis. An Arab speaking force would be more effective in bringing around stability in present day Iraq.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

If you dont want to answer my question or share your opinion, please dont crap in my thread and go troll elsewhere.

But I did answer your question.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: dahunan
I sort of hate to say this.. but I wan 3 large US military bases built in Iraq and our forces to never leave.. That will = victory.

why do you want that?

Because that's what it takes to justify the loss of over 1000 Americans and the projected $200 billion cost of the war. I doubt we get it, and I would settle for a fair election and let the cards fall where they may after that.

Now answer mine. I've already read in another thread of yours that we should just get out ASAP. As an American citizen and taxpayer I don't think we should until we at least give the Iraqis one chance at Democracy and I find it hard to believe another American could believe differntly. That is why I am wondering if you are an American citizen. Are you?

I feel we owe that to all the dead people, American as well as Iraqi. If they return to chaos, then so be it but we owe them once chance to be heard as to what the MAJORITY of Iraqis want. Why are you against that?

Here are your answers. I do believe we should get out of Iraq ASAP. And yes, my tax dollars are also going towards sustaining this utterly useless war.

I dont think we can bring stability and peace to Iraq. The Iraqis view us as an occupying force, an imperialist force and most importantly, a non-Muslim force. They will NOT accept the dictates of any country, least likely the United States which is considered to be the biggest supporter of Israel, the nation which has angered the entire Arab populace (including Iraq) with respect to its dealing with Palestine.

The evidence is in front of you. More soldiers die every month than the preceding month. Why so? If Iraqis are willing to embrace Democracy, then this would not happen. We can discredit the magnitude of the insurgency by saying a few bunch of terrorists are carrying out suicide bombings. I differ. Every week I hear of an Iraqi city I had never heard of before taking part in anti-coalition activities. I ask you, had you ever heard of Moqtada Al-Sadr before we invaded Iraq? I had never heard of him, or of Falluja or Samarra. All there are highly restive cities, with a sizeable population who are just not accepting US dictates.

I believe the solution is for Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab nations to replace the COALITION roll forces and the United States completely rid Iraq of its presence. Any Westerner would be a target by the Iraqis. An Arab speaking force would be more effective in bringing around stability in present day Iraq.

If we could get Saudi Arabia and Egypt to intervene in such a matter, then I would be all for it. In absence of that, we still have a responsibility to try and give the Iraqis a chance at another form of goverment. Any form they choose is fine with me. After all, we broke it and now we need to try and fix it.

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
And how many times do insist on asking the same baited question? It seems everyone want to give the Iraqis at least one chance at a fair election? You on the other hand only seem to want us to lay down our guns and run as fast as we can??

Are you even an American citizen??

If you dont want to answer my question or share your opinion, please dont crap in my thread and go troll elsewhere.

But I did answer your question.

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Sultan

Originally posted by: dahunan
I sort of hate to say this.. but I wan 3 large US military bases built in Iraq and our forces to never leave.. That will = victory.

why do you want that?

Because that's what it takes to justify the loss of over 1000 Americans and the projected $200 billion cost of the war. I doubt we get it, and I would settle for a fair election and let the cards fall where they may after that.

Now answer mine. I've already read in another thread of yours that we should just get out ASAP. As an American citizen and taxpayer I don't think we should until we at least give the Iraqis one chance at Democracy and I find it hard to believe another American could believe differntly. That is why I am wondering if you are an American citizen. Are you?

I feel we owe that to all the dead people, American as well as Iraqi. If they return to chaos, then so be it but we owe them once chance to be heard as to what the MAJORITY of Iraqis want. Why are you against that?

Here are your answers. I do believe we should get out of Iraq ASAP. And yes, my tax dollars are also going towards sustaining this utterly useless war.

I dont think we can bring stability and peace to Iraq. The Iraqis view us as an occupying force, an imperialist force and most importantly, a non-Muslim force. They will NOT accept the dictates of any country, least likely the United States which is considered to be the biggest supporter of Israel, the nation which has angered the entire Arab populace (including Iraq) with respect to its dealing with Palestine.

The evidence is in front of you. More soldiers die every month than the preceding month. Why so? If Iraqis are willing to embrace Democracy, then this would not happen. We can discredit the magnitude of the insurgency by saying a few bunch of terrorists are carrying out suicide bombings. I differ. Every week I hear of an Iraqi city I had never heard of before taking part in anti-coalition activities. I ask you, had you ever heard of Moqtada Al-Sadr before we invaded Iraq? I had never heard of him, or of Falluja or Samarra. All there are highly restive cities, with a sizeable population who are just not accepting US dictates.

I believe the solution is for Saudi Arabia, Egypt and other Arab nations to replace the COALITION roll forces and the United States completely rid Iraq of its presence. Any Westerner would be a target by the Iraqis. An Arab speaking force would be more effective in bringing around stability in present day Iraq.

If we could get Saudi Arabia and Egypt to intervene in such a matter, then I would be all for it. In absence of that, we still have a responsibility to try and give the Iraqis a chance at another form of goverment. Any form they choose is fine with me. After all, we broke it and now we need to try and fix it.

I doubt any country would be willing to come in under US Command. Many countries including India and Pakistan have stated that they are willing to send in troops under the UN Command. With reconstruction awards going to US companies in no-bid contracts, how do you propose any other nation would even TRY and get involved?

Speaking from fairy land, I would say the best option for the US is to pool the money we have allocated for Iraq in a neutral body, and cede authority of the nation to UN or Arab League command. That way we can leave. That way Iraqis wont complain we're there to occupy their nation and steal their oil. And we can ACTUALLY concentrate on the WoT

 

[cwjerome]

Sultan's original post shows a lot of cynicism. I would like to hear his solutions.

I must believe that region isn't hopelessly damned. They are just people... human beings like me and you. They have the same potential for good and bad. It's just the cultural atmosphere that's been building for hundreds of years has a stranglehold on SOME of them. Blind religious fanaticism, non-separation of church and state, tribalism, racism, despotism, barbarism, etc... those are just beliefs-- ideas that can change. 500 years from now, do you think the region will still be the same way? I don't... it's going to be a long struggle. It won't happen overnight, but there's got to be a starting point. The starting point has to be NOW.

I don't believe we have a choice, and what we are doing today is just the beginning of a process of change. It will sometimes be ugly, but I sincerely think that in 50+ years history will look back and see America's greatness in defeating religious facism and terror, and pulling the Middle East/Muslim community out of the dark ages and into civilized modernity. There's a lot of really bad people flowing in over there to prevent this, and it's a difficult road. But most truly worthwhile things are difficult. Iraq has the resources and population to be a very successful country. Staying the course... nobody thinks that Iraq will be a little America, but it can be a Turkey.

 

[Infohawk]

Heh. I did this poll a while back this year. I forgot the results. There was a lot of weaseling like, "we already won it" and "if Iraq has an election." Some were honest and said it would be victory if Iraq was stable and supported us. Well that's not gonna happen. If htey have democracy they're going to be anti-Israel (justified) and anti-US.

 

[cwjerome]

Oops, Sultan squeezed in some thoughts during my post...

I'll think about what you said.

 

[onelove]

Originally posted by: Sultan
Speaking from fairy land, I would say the best option for the US is to pool the money we have allocated for Iraq in a neutral body, and cede authority of the nation to UN or Arab League command. That way we can leave. That way Iraqis wont complain we're there to occupy their nation and steal their oil. And we can ACTUALLY concentrate on the WoT

in other words, spend $120B/$200B (plus lives/limbs) in exchange for nothing? I don't think that's in Rummy's plan (regardless of personal views on him, I know he's smarter than that). Now that we are there, we should examine what benefits we intend to obtain from it.

Every time you hear the phrase "democracy in the heart of the middle east" come from buuush/cheney's mouth, replace phrase with "large US military presence in the heart of the middle east".

 

[Sultan]

Originally posted by: onelove

Originally posted by: Sultan
Speaking from fairy land, I would say the best option for the US is to pool the money we have allocated for Iraq in a neutral body, and cede authority of the nation to UN or Arab League command. That way we can leave. That way Iraqis wont complain we're there to occupy their nation and steal their oil. And we can ACTUALLY concentrate on the WoT

in other words, spend $120B/$200B (plus lives/limbs) in exchange for nothing? I don't think that's in Rummy's plan (regardless of personal views on him, I know he's smarter than that). Now that we are there, we should examine what benefits we intend to obtain from it.

Every time you hear the phrase "democracy in the heart of the middle east" come from buuush/cheney's mouth, replace phrase with "large US military presence in the heart of the middle east".

so what are you saying? that we must extract material gain after bombing the crap out of Iraq, killing thousands of civilians during the war and reducing the country into chaos? And then our government also insists that our presence there should not be perceived as oil stealers or military domination?

Additionally, we have not even considered taking into acount the hundreds of thousands of children that died during the sanctions!!!

dont you think the common Iraqi would have UTMOST resentment against the United States? And do you expect the Iraqis to tolerate a military presence on their soil? Hey, look at the Iranians next door and see what happened there when the US supported the Shah. The revolution there turned a pretty decent nation in to a COMPLETE theocracy which we now label as an "axis of evil" :roll: