What Went Wrong In Vietnam?

[joohang]

Originally posted by: Dari
Aside from the fact that the war was unpopular here in the States, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of rag-tag foot-soldiers beat the most professional army in history. While I'm not looking for any conspiracy theories, I just find it hard to believe why we didn't do a massive invasion of the North. Can anyone explain this? Or why we never sent soldiers across a certain threshold? Or why we never captured any of their formal political leaders?

What went wrong?

You will easily find hundreds of academic literature on this matter.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: Dari Aside from the fact that the war was unpopular here in the States, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of rag-tag foot-soldiers beat the most professional army in history. While I'm not looking for any conspiracy theories, I just find it hard to believe why we didn't do a massive invasion of the North. Can anyone explain this? Or why we never sent soldiers across a certain threshold? Or why we never captured any of their formal political leaders? What went wrong?

You will easily find hundreds of academic literature on this matter.

Everybody says the same thing about the Revolutionary War

The problem with Vietnam at least as to why we did not win is manyfold. The key is that we were not SUPPOSED to win. See McNamaras book. The reason we went in was because we were afraid that if South Vietnam fell, then Thailand, Indonesia, well everything in southeast asia would fall into communism and the control of China, of whom were very concerned. Good reason to fear them. Recall that the purges of Mao made the Holocost look like a teaparty, at least in sheer numbers killed. China has a HUGE army. We would have been overwhelmed if they sent in 5 million ground troops. So the game was not to play so hard that we pissed off the Chinese, and not leave to have the region over run. Unfortunately, this leaves good men stranded to die. Kennedy supposedly said early on that we would prove our moral superiority by not yielding no matter the cost in american lives. Johnson took this attitude and ran with it. Our strategy and tactics fell in line with this philosophy. You cant win and you cant leave is a lousy basis to run a war.

 

[bGIveNs33]

I've got a report due on vietnam... I would love to have an interview if there is anyone here that either fought, was involved, or just remembered the time real well. LMK.

 

[denali]

TV was the major reason Vietnam was a failure. War isn't a pretty sight and the American public didn't like what they were seeing while watching Uncle Walter, eating dinner. TV forced the military to change the way they fight wars.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

One of the biggest failures was the M-16 jamming. We've found entire squads slaughtered and not a shot fired from any of their rifles because each and every one of them jammed from poor quality weaponry and harsh conditions.

Then again, I'm not so sure we should have been there to begin with.

nik

 

[Linflas]

If you can catch a showing of Path to War it does a pretty good job of showing how things went wrong.

 

[Linflas]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: Dari Aside from the fact that the war was unpopular here in the States, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of rag-tag foot-soldiers beat the most professional army in history. While I'm not looking for any conspiracy theories, I just find it hard to believe why we didn't do a massive invasion of the North. Can anyone explain this? Or why we never sent soldiers across a certain threshold? Or why we never captured any of their formal political leaders? What went wrong?

You will easily find hundreds of academic literature on this matter.

Everybody says the same thing about the Revolutionary War

The problem with Vietnam at least as to why we did not win is manyfold. The key is that we were not SUPPOSED to win. See McNamaras book. The reason we went in was because we were afraid that if South Vietnam fell, then Thailand, Indonesia, well everything in southeast asia would fall into communism and the control of China, of whom were very concerned. Good reason to fear them. Recall that the purges of Mao made the Holocost look like a teaparty, at least in sheer numbers killed. China has a HUGE army. We would have been overwhelmed if they sent in 5 million ground troops. So the game was not to play so hard that we pissed off the Chinese, and not leave to have the region over run. Unfortunately, this leaves good men stranded to die. Kennedy supposedly said early on that we would prove our moral superiority by not yielding no matter the cost in american lives. Johnson took this attitude and ran with it. Our strategy and tactics fell in line with this philosophy. You cant win and you cant leave is a lousy basis to run a war.

I wouldn't trust McNamara to tell me the sun was shining unless I could see it for myself. McNamara is in large part responsible for many of the things that went wrong early on in Vietnam.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Vietnam was the first war aired LIVE on TV

I'll never forget the video of the GI shooting a Vietnamese in the head, execution style with a .45 on the evening news when I was a teen.

My apoligies to the bulk of Vietnam Vets, but there were some really bad U.S. soldiers involved in the Vietnam War (trust me, I've literally met thousands of them), the soldiers that went were usually:

1.) Socieoeconomically disenfranchised (poor)
2.) Not politically connected
3.) Not motivated (they came back to the states & were literally spit on for risking their lives)
4.) Younger than any soldiers we'd ever sent into battle

Do a search on Post Traumatic Stress Disease on Google & look @ some of the factors that let to our Vet's problems. Primarily, they were too young to understand what they were fighting for, in WW I, II, & Korea, they were older, had wives, families, property, and they knew what they were fighting for. In Vietnam, we were literally sending virgins to fight...

The war was also micro-managed by politicians, our president (LBJ) personally selected the targets to bomb.

IMHO, our troops & country were demoralized by the Vietnam War more than any other single military action other than our own Civil War.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Vietnam was the first war aired LIVE on TV

I'll never forget the video of the GI shooting a Vietnamese in the head, execution style with a .45 on the evening news when I was a teen.

When you say Vietnamese, do you mean VietKong? Or a civilian? Oh wait... even the civilians were trained to kill us.

nik

 

[Zebo]

Six words:

China's Ho Chi Min Trail and Russia

 

[Shalmanese]

Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Linflas

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: joohang

Originally posted by: Dari Aside from the fact that the war was unpopular here in the States, I find it hard to believe that a bunch of rag-tag foot-soldiers beat the most professional army in history. While I'm not looking for any conspiracy theories, I just find it hard to believe why we didn't do a massive invasion of the North. Can anyone explain this? Or why we never sent soldiers across a certain threshold? Or why we never captured any of their formal political leaders? What went wrong?

You will easily find hundreds of academic literature on this matter.

Everybody says the same thing about the Revolutionary War The problem with Vietnam at least as to why we did not win is manyfold. The key is that we were not SUPPOSED to win. See McNamaras book. The reason we went in was because we were afraid that if South Vietnam fell, then Thailand, Indonesia, well everything in southeast asia would fall into communism and the control of China, of whom were very concerned. Good reason to fear them. Recall that the purges of Mao made the Holocost look like a teaparty, at least in sheer numbers killed. China has a HUGE army. We would have been overwhelmed if they sent in 5 million ground troops. So the game was not to play so hard that we pissed off the Chinese, and not leave to have the region over run. Unfortunately, this leaves good men stranded to die. Kennedy supposedly said early on that we would prove our moral superiority by not yielding no matter the cost in american lives. Johnson took this attitude and ran with it. Our strategy and tactics fell in line with this philosophy. You cant win and you cant leave is a lousy basis to run a war.

I wouldn't trust McNamara to tell me the sun was shining unless I could see it for myself. McNamara is in large part responsible for many of the things that went wrong early on in Vietnam.

Trust McNamara? NFW. The above is not based on his book, I just referred to it because it is an interesting read on the man. Remember it was often called McNamara's war, so insight gleaned on him helps make the context of the war more complete. Take him with a grain if salt.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

Why are my kids well behaved and yours are brats?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

Depends on who does the looking doesnt it?

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Shalmanese
Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

It's called rules of war. We don't attack civilians for a reason. They're innocent civilians. But when we're worried about the army, those innocent civilians turn into another threat. Granted, it's a decent strategy, but if we had gone in knowing that the civies would be hostiles, we should have had permission to kill approaching ones without hesitation.

nik

 

[Pliablemoose]

In retrospect, there were many "civilians" that were ranking officers in the VK, one of the many problems encountered when you step into the middle of a civil war.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I wouldn't trust McNamara to tell me the sun was shining unless I could see it for myself. McNamara is in large part responsible for many of the things that went wrong early on in Vietnam.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: Shalmanese Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

It's called rules of war. We don't attack civilians for a reason. They're innocent civilians. But when we're worried about the army, those innocent civilians turn into another threat. Granted, it's a decent strategy, but if we had gone in knowing that the civies would be hostiles, we should have had permission to kill approaching ones without hesitation. nik

Be careful Nik, remember the Revolutionary War. The British were caught in the dilemma, because many only wanted to attack soldiers, but then, we hadnt any. They were all informal militia, and a farmer one day was a soldier the next. Dont be too hard on those who one day see family die, and then decide to take up arms the next. Real war is not kind to anyone. We WERE an invading army, and war between north and south was a way of life for hundreds of years or more. Imagine your normal if miserable way of life was interrupted by foreigners who were so alien they might indeed have been from another planet. As far as killing civilians without hesitation, you do not know what you ask. Not your fault. You could not know.

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: Shalmanese Why is it that Vietmanese civilian trying to kill American soliders is looked on in comtempt while it is "patriotic" to proudly state that if ever an invading country touched the US soil, there would be a massive amount of grassroots support by the US citizenship to rout the invading army?

It's called rules of war. We don't attack civilians for a reason. They're innocent civilians. But when we're worried about the army, those innocent civilians turn into another threat. Granted, it's a decent strategy, but if we had gone in knowing that the civies would be hostiles, we should have had permission to kill approaching ones without hesitation. nik

Be careful Nik, remember the Revolutionary War. The British were caught in the dilemma, because many only wanted to attack soldiers, but then, we hadnt any. They were all informal militia, and a farmer one day was a soldier the next. Dont be too hard on those who one day see family die, and then decide to take up arms the next. Real war is not kind to anyone. We WERE an invading army, and war between north and south was a way of life for hundreds of years or more. Imagine your normal if miserable way of life was interrupted by foreigners who were so alien they might indeed have been from another planet. As far as killing civilians without hesitation, you do not know what you ask. Not your fault. You could not know.

Well, I did comment that I didn't think we should have been there in the first place. Do I atleast get points for that?

nik

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: Zakath15
They fought a geurilla war while we maintained a traditional stance - keep throwing men in until the enemy gets overwhelmed.

Only thing is, they never got overwhelmed.

We've fought three wars in asia, lost two and won the other only with the help of nuclear weapons.

Hah, that remind me of the Sicilian's quote from the Princess Bride: "Never fight a land war in Asia"

oh and "never trust a Sicilian"

 

[NikPreviousAcct]

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Zakath15
They fought a geurilla war while we maintained a traditional stance - keep throwing men in until the enemy gets overwhelmed.

Only thing is, they never got overwhelmed.

We've fought three wars in asia, lost two and won the other only with the help of nuclear weapons.

Hah, that remind me of the Sicilian's quote from the Princess Bride: "Never fight a land war in Asia"

oh and "never trust a Sicilian"

Wasn't it "never to head-to-head with a Sicilian when death is involved!" ?

err... something. Nevermind. I'm dumb.

nik

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: ffmcobalt

Originally posted by: lozina

Originally posted by: Zakath15
They fought a geurilla war while we maintained a traditional stance - keep throwing men in until the enemy gets overwhelmed.

Only thing is, they never got overwhelmed.

We've fought three wars in asia, lost two and won the other only with the help of nuclear weapons.

Hah, that remind me of the Sicilian's quote from the Princess Bride: "Never fight a land war in Asia"

oh and "never trust a Sicilian"

Wasn't it "never to head-to-head with a Sicilian when death is involved!" ?

err... something. Nevermind. I'm dumb.

nik

Maybe you're right- I'm dumb too

 

[FenrisUlf]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Vietnam was the first war aired LIVE on TV

I'll never forget the video of the GI shooting a Vietnamese in the head, execution style with a .45 on the evening news when I was a teen.

It wasn't a GI. It was a Major in the South Vietnamese army. The person he shot was a Viet Cong sabateur who had just blown up a civilian building during the Tet offensive. The building housed the families of a number of South Vietnamese military men, including the Major's family. This wasn't just some random killing, the man was obviously distressed and had his family's murderer right there. Perhaps not exactly in accordance with the US justice system, but I can see why he was so upset.

 

[ScrapSilicon]

Originally posted by: FenrisUlf

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Vietnam was the first war aired LIVE on TV

I'll never forget the video of the GI shooting a Vietnamese in the head, execution style with a .45 on the evening news when I was a teen.

It wasn't a GI. It was a Major in the South Vietnamese army. The person he shot was a Viet Cong sabateur who had just blown up a civilian building during the Tet offensive. The building housed the families of a number of South Vietnamese military men, including the Major's family. This wasn't just some random killing, the man was obviously distressed and had his family's murderer right there. Perhaps not exactly in accordance with the US justice system, but I can see why he was so upset.

and why he did it..

 

[Pliablemoose]

I stand corrected, thanks.