What Water Heater Type To Replace With?

[s0me0nesmind1]

House came with standard gas-powered 2x 50gallon tank heaters and are now about 10+ years old.

I'm seeing a large array of different kinds now - tankless ones, hybrid ones that uses the surrounding heat, and more. I'm looking for some good opinions on which to go with.


I hear how efficient tankless ones are - but my plumber has been warning me that tankless ones are also more expensive to install (requires some changes in piping potentially + bigger gas line installed) - and also says it requires more maintenance that is much more expensive since they are much smaller and more complex.

Anyone here go through this? I've also looked into the Hybrid ones - but since I'm currently on gas ones, it's kind of hard to switch to those that are more electric without getting some re-wiring in our attic-space.



If it helps here's a breakdown of current situation:
- I'm out Texas area - basically 8 or so months out of the year are excruciatingly hot.
-The remaining 4 months though are significantly colder - so not sure how much of a difference that makes when it's 30-60 degrees for a few months
-Current water heaters are 2x 50gallon tanks. They are located in the 2nd-story attic.

 

[herm0016]

In tx? I think I would go heat pumps. Advantage is it will also cool your attic space a bit. They are very efficient when the incoming temp is not too cold. Otherwise i would be going gas tankless but depends on ease of upgrading the gas line size.

 

[deadlyapp]

I've thought about the same thing recently, since our water heater is probably from 97 or so and will likely give up the ghost in the coming year(s). Ultimately I think I'll end up just staying with a standard gas fired WH. Since they are kept in an unconditioned space (I'm also in Texas), the relative cost of the gas during 9 months of the year is super low, since the WH doesn't lose much heat to the environment. With an on-demand system, unless you have a storage tank which basically serves as a big heat sink, you'll likely end up using more energy (minimal though).

 

[echo4747]

nat gas condensing tank water heater with a 100k btu burner ( or greater) I have an A.O. smith vertex but there are other brands as well

Vertex™ 50-Gallon Ultra-Low NOx Power Direct Vent Natural Gas Water Heater | A.O. Smith

Looking for high-quality water heating solution? Review the Vertex™ 50-Gallon Ultra-Low NOx Power Direct Vent Natural Gas Water Heater from A.O. Smith.

www.hotwater.com

 

[bbhaag]

In tx? I think I would go heat pumps. Advantage is it will also cool your attic space a bit. They are very efficient when the incoming temp is not too cold. Otherwise i would be going gas tankless but depends on ease of upgrading the gas line size.

Huh...I didn't even know that heat pump water heaters were a thing. I knew they've existed in the HVAC space for quit awhile hell I have one. I didn't even think that the tech could be ported over to water heaters but it makes sense especially for the OP who lives in Texas. I see AO Smith makes a Voltex Hybrid Electric Heat Pump 80-Gallon Water Heater that appears to combine electric and heat pump tech into one unit.....interesting. I suppose the electric elements are for when the temps drop below a certain set point were the heat pump becomes inefficient and they kick in to help supplement.
It looks like they are on the more expensive side though. The unit I linked to comes in at over $1800 but does qualify for a $300 credit so it kinda puts it on par with a gas powered unit of course some of those also qualify for the credit.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic I had just never heard of these before and found it interesting they exist. As far as the OP is concerned since you already have the gas line there I would probably go gas powered or heat pump like Herm0016 suggested. It would probably come down to the cost of install for me.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Huh...I didn't even know that heat pump water heaters were a thing. I knew they've existed in the HVAC space for quit awhile hell I have one. I didn't even think that the tech could be ported over to water heaters but it makes sense especially for the OP who lives in Texas. I see AO Smith makes a Voltex Hybrid Electric Heat Pump 80-Gallon Water Heater that appears to combine electric and heat pump tech into one unit.....interesting. I suppose the electric elements are for when the temps drop below a certain set point were the heat pump becomes inefficient and they kick in to help supplement.
It looks like they are on the more expensive side though. The unit I linked to comes in at over $1800 but does qualify for a $300 credit so it kinda puts it on par with a gas powered unit of course some of those also qualify for the credit.

Anyway, sorry to get off topic I had just never heard of these before and found it interesting they exist. As far as the OP is concerned since you already have the gas line there I would probably go gas powered or heat pump like Herm0016 suggested. It would probably come down to the cost of install for me.

Right now (through the end of 2020 for now - that is) there is also a $300 tax credit you can be eligible for them.

So it's definitely sounding appealing.

I've been doing some number crunching - and overall it is looking more beneficial. Right now I'm calculating the costs to run a 240v outlet up to my 2nd story attic where my water heaters are since I would need that. Heat pump models (to my knowledge) run only on electric... so I would need new outlets instead of my gas outlets currently there.



(EDIT: Derp - I see now finishing up your post that you were already aware of the $300 tax credit). The main thing is while the tax credit is nice - according to my calcs it should pay for itself in ~3 years.

 

[deadlyapp]

Right now (through the end of 2020 for now - that is) there is also a $300 tax credit you can be eligible for them.

So it's definitely sounding appealing.

I've been doing some number crunching - and overall it is looking more beneficial. Right now I'm calculating the costs to run a 240v outlet up to my 2nd story attic where my water heaters are since I would need that. Heat pump models (to my knowledge) run only on electric... so I would need new outlets instead of my gas outlets currently there.



(EDIT: Derp - I see now finishing up your post that you were already aware of the $300 tax credit). The main thing is while the tax credit is nice - according to my calcs it should pay for itself in ~3 years.

From what I read, it still sounds like if you have gas, the gas WH are a better value operationally than even a heat pump unit. In a colder environment I gotta believe that the on-demand WH end up less expensive, but since yours is attic installed in Texas a standard WH seems more practical. Running a couple of 240 lines and installing new breakers and making it to code (if you don't do it yourself) has to outweigh the potential savings.

 

[bbhaag]

Right now (through the end of 2020 for now - that is) there is also a $300 tax credit you can be eligible for them.

So it's definitely sounding appealing.

I've been doing some number crunching - and overall it is looking more beneficial. Right now I'm calculating the costs to run a 240v outlet up to my 2nd story attic where my water heaters are since I would need that. Heat pump models (to my knowledge) run only on electric... so I would need new outlets instead of my gas outlets currently there.

(EDIT: Derp - I see now finishing up your post that you were already aware of the $300 tax credit). The main thing is while the tax credit is nice - according to my calcs it should pay for itself in ~3 years.

That is true you would need to run some dedicated 240 lines to the attic but you had already mentioned that your plumber has said that if you go gas tankless then larger vent pipes plus a larger gas line might be needed. So in that regard it might come out even that's why I mentioned in my other post that it would probably come down to install cost not the cost of the unit.

I mean yeah a traditional setup like you have is going to be the cheapest route. The infrastructure is already there so essentially you would just be swapping out the tanks but I though you wanted opinions on other options as well.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity are your current units power vented or do they use the more traditional atmospheric venting?

 

[sdifox]

How many people are in your house that you need 100ga of hot water? I have five people and I am in a colder climate than you and one tank is plenty. And if you indeed need 100ga of hot water, stick to gas fired tanks.

Get solar panels, they not only give you electricity, they also shade your roof.

Also, 10+ year is maybe mid service life. Probably just need to be flushed.

 

[snoopy7548]

The nice thing about those fancy heat pump ones is that they dehumidify the surrounding air, but being in an attic that doesn't really make sense; it's more useful in a basement situation.

I would just stick with gas and do a yearly flushing as sdifox said, but if it's in the attic it could be a pain in the ass. One reason why I love having the furnace and water heater in a walkout basement.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

How many people are in your house that you need 100ga of hot water? I have five people and I am in a colder climate than you and one tank is plenty. And if you indeed need 100ga of hot water, stick to gas fired tanks.

Get solar panels, they not only give you electricity, they also shade your roof.

Also, 10+ year is maybe mid service life. Probably just need to be flushed.

Right now we have:

Me+Wife.
2 Kids (ages 1 and 3 - so gotta prepare for teenage showers eventually heh). Might be 3 kids in the distant future.
1 Mother in law.

100 gallons is simply what came with the house. Overall I'm up for downgrading to 80 gallons (2x 40 gallons or 1 80 gallon).

Most people advise that the life of a water heater is 6-10 years, so since were over 10 years now I figured replacing them is something we should do... Now if I could cut open the tank and see how good of a condition it is I would, but obviously that isn't feasible.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

The nice thing about those fancy heat pump ones is that they dehumidify the surrounding air, but being in an attic that doesn't really make sense; it's more useful in a basement situation.

I would just stick with gas and do a yearly flushing as sdifox said, but if it's in the attic it could be a pain in the ass. One reason why I love having the furnace and water heater in a walkout basement.

Well in that regard though, in the attic the heat is pretty much constant heh - so if it's an overall benefit for the heat pump to have surrounding heat - it's basically an infinite supply here in TX in the attic.

Whats the logic for not going with a heat-pump though? Just because we don't use the attic-space like a basement?

 

[herm0016]

Well in that regard though, in the attic the heat is pretty much constant heh - so if it's an overall benefit for the heat pump to have surrounding heat - it's basically an infinite supply here in TX in the attic.

Whats the logic for not going with a heat-pump though? Just because we don't use the attic-space like a basement?

cost is the only disadvantage. i have never replaced a water heater that was less than 10 years old, most last longer than that if you drain them once in a while. pay back could be less than its life expectancy.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

cost is the only disadvantage. i have never replaced a water heater that was less than 10 years old, most last longer than that if you drain them once in a while. pay back could be less than its life expectancy.

Yeah - for me it's mostly on the fact that we have only been in the house for 1 year, that means 9 years of the previous owner using them. I always feel like it's a safe assumption to presume the previous owners didn't do shit to maintain them.

Overall, the cost for moving to heat-pump from gas isn't that high to me - the $300 tax credit makes a difference, and the difference maker is the calculation for the annual savings tells me it should pay for itself in ~3 years.

 

[sdifox]

Right now we have:

Me+Wife.
2 Kids (ages 1 and 3 - so gotta prepare for teenage showers eventually heh). Might be 3 kids in the distant future.
1 Mother in law.

100 gallons is simply what came with the house. Overall I'm up for downgrading to 80 gallons (2x 40 gallons or 1 80 gallon).

Most people advise that the life of a water heater is 6-10 years, so since were over 10 years now I figured replacing them is something we should do... Now if I could cut open the tank and see how good of a condition it is I would, but obviously that isn't feasible.

by the time they are teenagers you need to replace again
you really should look into SDHW

PVT Solar Pre-Heating - Dualsun

Dualsun’s SPRING4 hybrid PVT panels can be integrated with an existing domestic hot water tank or pool heating system.

dualsun.com

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Got a guy in today to give me quotes. My current water heaters he pointed out are definitely starting to rust at the bottom. The screws can clearly be seen with rust all over them. Overall he remained agnostic while explaining things to me - his basic thing is "I'll give you a quote to replace it with 3 different options with whatever you choose - standard gas tank, tankless, and the service for hybrid one that you suggested"

Overall he kinda sold me that it just isn't worth it changing things and to stick with a standard gas tank. They are also solid and simple - they don't have complex parts and things that can break down. It's just a tank with a flame underneath.




Basically, my monthly gas bill right now (and during ALL summer months until I might turn the hot air on) is $25 - $30/month. That's $30 with a gas dryer (used multiple times a week), and a gas stove (used daily). So taking out the stove and dryer, and were looking at.... $7 or $8 per tank per month?


With Hybrids, I would have to...
1) Pay $500+ to get a 220v outlet all the way to the water heaters in my 2nd story attic. Maybe more depending on the complexity - and I believe they would also have to run 2 (1 per tank)
2) $300 tax credit, while not bad - is still overall more expensive per tank so it offsets it
3) They aren't proven to be anymore long lasting than any normal tank heater from a years perspective.
4) Overall, the amount it will save in gas is minimal - and will likely be mostly made-up in electric costs


With Tankless, I don't really see the benefits either - It's a more complex machine that needs some yearly maintenance, hot water isn't guaranteed when you have multiple sources going at once, and repairs are generally more expensive.

 

[bbhaag]

And there ya go guys. Good on you man. You did your research called in a pro to get you some quotes and give some advice but only to find out that in the end that what you already have is good enough. See this is my opinion on newer home tech; it should be for new construction homes only. It's just to expensive to retro fit older homes with newer tech like tankless or heat pump style water heaters and this is just one example among many.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

And there ya go guys. Good on you man. You did your research called in a pro to get you some quotes and give some advice but only to find out that in the end that what you already have is good enough. See this is my opinion on newer home tech; it should be for new construction homes only. It's just to expensive to retro fit older homes with newer tech like tankless or heat pump style water heaters and this is just one example among many.

Oh - one other thing he mentioned - he said he runs into a lot more of a "Man, I flushed this thing every year like I'm supposed to" replacements more often than the "I didn't do shit to mine" haha.

Sounds like hes suggesting there isn't anything proven that getting rid of the sediment is of any help to the longevity.

Since I have a water softener, I might just not flush it yearly then if it makes no difference. I've read articles suggesting this as well - but ultimately... I don't know what to believe =/

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

How many people are in your house that you need 100ga of hot water? I have five people and I am in a colder climate than you and one tank is plenty. And if you indeed need 100ga of hot water, stick to gas fired tanks.

Get solar panels, they not only give you electricity, they also shade your roof.

Also, 10+ year is maybe mid service life. Probably just need to be flushed.

I think one of the things is that the price difference between 40 gallon and 50 gallon is overall incredibly tiny as odd as that seems. I guess it isn't surprising though.

 

[bbhaag]

Oh - one other thing he mentioned - he said he runs into a lot more of a "Man, I flushed this thing every year like I'm supposed to" replacements more often than the "I didn't do shit to mine" haha.

Sounds like hes suggesting there isn't anything proven that getting rid of the sediment is of any help to the longevity.

Since I have a water softener, I might just not flush it yearly then if it makes no difference. I've read articles suggesting this as well - but ultimately... I don't know what to believe =/

Heh I don't know about all that but I don't blame you for not wanting to drain 100 gallons of water out of your attic every year. Unless you got a drain in your attic which is probably not the case but would be sick if you did.

It'd be like one of those subtle status things you can brag to your friends about. Like you'd say something like "Oh it ain't no big deal to drain my water heaters." and they'd be like "Oh man you got two water heaters??" and you'd be like "Of course I do don't you? But it ain't a big deal to drain them because my attic has a drain in it." kinda thing when your just hanging out watching football and shit like that and it somehow comes up in the conversation.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Heh I don't know about all that but I don't blame you for not wanting to drain 100 gallons of water out of your attic every year. Unless you got a drain in your attic which is probably not the case but would be sick if you did.

It'd be like one of those subtle status things you can brag to your friends about. Like you'd say something like "Oh it ain't no big deal to drain my water heaters." and they'd be like "Oh man you got two water heaters??" and you'd be like "Of course I do don't you? But it ain't a big deal to drain them because my attic has a drain in it." kinda thing when your just hanging out watching football and shit like that and it somehow comes up in the conversation.

I guess I might as well ask everyone here that then - Since it's been decided (Getting them installed Monday after next) I'd like to ask this particularly to any plumbing pros here (If there are any, @Greenman maybe?)

I've heard mixed things about emptying your water tanks. I've heard it's general maintenance that you should do annually for best results to flush out sediment.

I've also heard that it's best to just not flush it. I don't know the exact reason or if there is any science to it - but hey, if you let sediment sit at the bottom long enough, maybe it acts as-if almost a barrier to leaks? I don't know



The guy that came in to give me quotes on water heater replacement basically said "Yeah, just over the years I've noticed that guys that haven't touched their water heater in 15 years until theirs needs replacement - but I get a lot more that need theirs replaced in 8-12 years from people who swear to me they change it out every year".


Reason I ask is that I'm just a particularly organized person in life - so doing stuff like an annual flush is something I have no problem scheduling on an annual to-do list... But if it isn't actually helping me then it's just a complete waste of time.

 

[bbhaag]

Heh I don't know about anyone else but I'm still up in the air on this one. Not the whole draining the tank for longer life aspect but the replacement of the current tanks.
Are these being replaced under warranty because that would make sense but it reads like you're just doing this because they are ten years old and you feel it's time. They aren't malfunctioning or leaking from what I read. Is that right?

So were does that exactly leave the OP? I guess I'm failing to see the end game here. Is it just so you can have the peace of mind knowing that the water heaters are new? If that's the case I don't think I can in good conscious recommend this. I mean it just sounds crazy to me that you would do this. Am I the only one who feels this way??

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Heh I don't know about anyone else but I'm still up in the air on this one. Not the whole draining the tank for longer life aspect but the replacement of the current tanks.
Are these being replaced under warranty because that would make sense but it reads like you're just doing this because they are ten years old and you feel it's time. They aren't malfunctioning or leaking from what I read. Is that right?

So were does that exactly leave the OP? I guess I'm failing to see the end game here. Is it just so you can have the peace of mind knowing that the water heaters are new? If that's the case I don't think I can in good conscious recommend this. I mean it just sounds crazy to me that you would do this. Am I the only one who feels this way??

It's just one of those "better safe than sorry" things for me.

10 years old, 9 of those were under a previous owner and I always feel like other people will treat things like shit.

Secondly, it's what came with the home, so I don't 100% trust the quality of anything that came from builders.


Towards the bottom I can see the screws and such are rusted out. Not a good sign, but I have zero clue how it looks inside. It's also one of those things where the leak can start off small (most probable) or it can potentially get a big crack and before you know it 50 gallons leak out onto my 2nd story attic that is on top of our master bedroom.

Just not a risk I want to take.


I mean, I haven't been a homeowner long enough to know the answer to this - do most people just wait until their water heater breaks?

 

[snoopy7548]

I've flushed my gas water heater every year since I've lived here (original owner, eight years) and haven't had any issues. The problem comes up when people who don't regularly flush their water heater do it for the first time after nine years - that's when corrosion, which was being held together by all the sediment, finally causes a burst and they call a plumber and say, "Oh yeah... I uh, totally flush this thing..."

You're also supposed to check and replace the anode rod, but that's another thing where you don't want to just start checking it and try to replace it after neglecting it. I've never checked mine because the blower motor assembly covers it.

I sort of agree with bbhaag on not rushing to replace the water heaters, but that's easy for me to say since mine is located in a basement where a leak wouldn't cause much damage (and I'm not OP.) The rust on the screws could just be surface rust from being in a hot and humid environment.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I've flushed my gas water heater every year since I've lived here (original owner, eight years) and haven't had any issues. The problem comes up when people who don't regularly flush their water heater do it for the first time after nine years - that's when corrosion, which was being held together by all the sediment, finally causes a burst and they call a plumber and say, "Oh yeah... I uh, totally flush this thing..."

You're also supposed to check and replace the anode rod, but that's another thing where you don't want to just start checking it and try to replace it after neglecting it. I've never checked mine because the blower motor assembly covers it.

I sort of agree with bbhaag on not rushing to replace the water heaters, but that's easy for me to say since mine is located in a basement where a leak wouldn't cause much damage (and I'm not OP.) The rust on the screws could just be surface rust from being in a hot and humid environment.

One of the plumbers I saw basically said your tank will give out before the anode rod ever will and that it's just meant to overall prolong the tank as best as it can.

I have no idea on the legitimacy of that, but it does sound like that eventually the tank will give.