what to do about homicidal pilots?

[tynopik]

So now that the '9/11' cockpit security doors may have killed more people than they saved, what's the solution?

Maybe get rid of the locking door altogether and rely on passengers to subdue any would-be hijackers?

Lufthansa is changing policy to require 2 people in the cockpit at all times, so if the pilot leaves for a bathroom break, a flight attendant has to go in the cockpit first.

That may or may not have made a difference in this case as the EgyptAir case showed, a determined pilot can bring a plane down before the other pilot can recover

Better/more intense psych screening and continued evaluations? So far there have been no reports of warning signs, but it's early yet.

Remote control is tempting, but brings remote control that can't be overridden brings up tremendous security issues of its own.

 

[master_shake_]

fire all pilots and use robots.

the plane basically flies itself.

 

[BeeBoop]

Walter White did it.

 

[Linflas]

I was listening to a pilot on the radio this morning and he said that US rules are that if the pilot or copilot leave the cockpit a flight attendant needs to step in so there is always 2 people in there.

 

[manimal]

Screening like they do with bus drivers? Should buses have a security checkpoint?

This has happened three times in the entirety of aviation history. Lets not go nuts in making a dept of pilot safety and a bill called save the children from pilots who go rouge.

 

[Markbnj]

fire all pilots and use robots.

the plane basically flies itself.

This. Eventually humans will no longer operate machinery.

In this specific case the cockpit door lock is made in such a way that whoever occupies the cockpit has complete control. Crew can enter a code but the unlocking proceeds in such a way that the cockpit occupant can easily override it. They can also see on CCTV who is attempting the unlock.

To fix this you'd need to have a "special" code/key possessed by the pilots that would allow overriding the override. But then the security of the whole arrangement goes to hell, because there is now a code/key "outside the cockpit" that allows unrestricted entry to it. How do you know who has it?

Bottom line is it gets to be a mess, and since this case is so incredibly rare it isn't worth trying to engineer a solution to the "homicidal pilot" problem. Sometimes lightning strikes people.

 

[CZroe]

How could you possibly say how many people they saved?! There's no telling how many copycat attacks were never even launched because they knew that the doors had been upgraded.

This happened because their cockpit protocols and procedures failed to account for suicidal pilots with upgraded doors like the FAA procedures.

 

[jlee]

Screening like they do with bus drivers? Should buses have a security checkpoint?

This has happened three times in the entirety of aviation history. Lets not go nuts in making a dept of pilot safety and a bill called save the children from pilots who go rouge.

Yeah, kneejerk policy changes rarely go well.

 

[cbrunny]

Three times? Quiz time. Where does the term "kamikaze" come from?

 

[GasX]

Three times? Quiz time. Where does the term "kamikaze" come from?

Japan... what do I win?

 

[cbrunny]

Japan... what do I win?

Hmm. I'm afraid I need more detail.

The prize is proving that manimal is wrong.

 

[mikeymikec]

fire all pilots and use robots.

the plane basically flies itself.

Skynet!

 

[HomerJS]

Three times? Quiz time. Where does the term "kamikaze" come from?

Thought it came from vodka, triple-sec and lime juice

 

[SandEagle]

Screening like they do with bus drivers? Should buses have a security checkpoint?

This has happened three times in the entirety of aviation history. Lets not go nuts in making a dept of pilot safety and a bill called save the children from pilots who go rouge.

security checkpoints at buses are a reality. i made a thread about it years ago.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/20/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220

we need to fight these Christianofascists and put an end to Christian terrorism once and for all. strange that the media hasn't called it a terrorist act yet. oh, wrong religion..sorry!

 

[Printer Bandit]

did the pilot that got locked out forget his pin # to get back in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

 

[Linflas]

security checkpoints at buses are a reality. i made a thread about it years ago.
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/20/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220

we need to fight these Christianofascists and put an end to Christian terrorism once and for all. strange that the media hasn't called it a terrorist act yet. oh, wrong religion..sorry!

When you get some evidence that showed that he crashed the plane to effect some political change that in his mind would benefit his cause then come back with your your terrorist act stupidity.

 

[tynopik]

also, it's past time for video recorders in the cockpit

pilots can shove it

 

[waggy]

did the pilot that got locked out forget his pin # to get back in?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixEHV7c3VXs

they also say the cockpit can override that.

 

[SphinxnihpS]

Let's just have an unsafe world.

 

[moonbogg]

fire all pilots and use robots.

the plane basically flies itself.

Agreed. Dump tons of money and resources into AI research. Its not geeky and its not lame or science fiction. Its the solution to many of our most pressing problems.

 

[maddogchen]

if google can make self-driving cars, they can make self flying airplanes!

 

[Brian Stirling]

Well a two person rule needs to be in effect everywhere and soon.

Additionally, they should have a means to remotely open the door using a secure comm method. We had such methods when we had nuke loaded bombers in the air and needed to authorize release.

The problem is that a pilot/copilot, determined enough, could still subdue a flight attendant and prevent the other pilot from returning.


Brian

 

[SlitheryDee]

This. Eventually humans will no longer operate machinery.

In this specific case the cockpit door lock is made in such a way that whoever occupies the cockpit has complete control. Crew can enter a code but the unlocking proceeds in such a way that the cockpit occupant can easily override it. They can also see on CCTV who is attempting the unlock.

To fix this you'd need to have a "special" code/key possessed by the pilots that would allow overriding the override. But then the security of the whole arrangement goes to hell, because there is now a code/key "outside the cockpit" that allows unrestricted entry to it. How do you know who has it?

Bottom line is it gets to be a mess, and since this case is so incredibly rare it isn't worth trying to engineer a solution to the "homicidal pilot" problem. Sometimes lightning strikes people.

Perhaps you could have an override code, but have it only be possessed by flight control on the ground. Then getting the code would automatically entail notification of ground control that there is an emergency situation. In the case of a crazy pilot they would give the flight attendant the code. In the case of a hijacking attempt the default policy would be to refuse to give the code.

Problem is that if the hijackers knew that they could instruct the flight attendant to tell ground control that there is a crazy pilot situation to get the code. I suppose they could have code phrases set up that would mean nothing to the hijackers but would let ground control know the true situation. There would have to be some kind of exchange of code words to verify that the flight attendant was who they said they were and was authorized to make the call in the first place. Just give them two different phrases that would both serve as identification and would indicate what the situation was at the same time.

 

[moonbogg]

Well a two person rule needs to be in effect everywhere and soon.

Additionally, they should have a means to remotely open the door using a secure comm method. We had such methods when we had nuke loaded bombers in the air and needed to authorize release.

The problem is that a pilot/copilot, determined enough, could still subdue a flight attendant and prevent the other pilot from returning.


Brian

Yeah, a young, committed pilot cause just smackabitch and subdue any flight attendant. Push stick forward and plane crashes. 2 people isn't enough. If a pilot is determined to bring a plane down, it goes down.

 

[Newell Steamer]

Nada.

But, expect the crazies to claw and pound on the cockpit door now with a 'valid' reason.