What things can Intel, AMD, Nvidia and Microsoft do to make PC desktop better?

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Mar 10, 2006
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#51
And probably 100% of businesses and 100% of government agencies and probably 100% of schools / colleges.

I am amused by Shintai's hyperbole, though. To call an industry good for sales of roughly 60 to 70 million units per quarter a dead industry is downright funny. It may be in decline -- but there will always be a market for businesses / schools / and high-end home users. There isn't a laptop built that doesn't choke on 4K video editing compared to what a DDR4-equipped Intel desktop can do.
Realize that the entire PC industry is approximately 300 million units per year. Do you really think traditional desktop towers make up the majority of PC sales? ;)
 
Mar 27, 2009
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#52
Windows 10 IoT for industry devices lists desktop shell and universal apps along with 1GB and 16GB storage requirement.

I wonder what happens if I buy a low end bay trail board that supports Windows 10 IoT and try to use it as a desktop? How much utility can the average person get out something like this? Just curious.
 

stockwiz

Senior member
Sep 8, 2013
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#53
AMD : Survive long enough to put out a good 8 core Zen CPU, and "4-8 core Zen + iGPU + HBM + 14 nm" APU. The latter can also be used as base for next gen consoles.

Intel: Give up the mobile phone / tablet segment, and prioritize desktop. Intel has been trying for so long in mobile, but will not succeed due to the competition from ARM. Provide 6-8 core desktop CPUs at prices where at least power users and enthusiasts can afford them, initially. That'll pave the way for mainstream users to buy similar CPUs the later, when SW has adapted. Otherwise Intel will be heading on a dwindling road where desktop sales keeps declining. We're already seeing dropping PC sales throughout the world.

Microsoft: Provide means for utilizing more than 4 CPU cores. And also take lead on showing that it is possible to do so, and promote it in every way possible. Keep inventing SW that utilizes the benefits of desktop environment, with large screen and good ergonomic input options for productivity work (proper keyboard and mouse). Develop SW that makes use of high performance hardware.
Desktop is dead and if Intel follows that plan they'll go under. People don't care about how powerful desktop computers are outside of a niche crowd of people. Mobile is the future. They HAVE to compete in the mobile space... like microsoft they are a bit late to the game.

Intel relies on server revenue and providing 8 core chips for cheap prices just costs them revenue which is why they don't do it (and lack of competition)

IMO in the next decade smart phones will just dock with a monitor/keyboard/mouse and that will be sufficient processing power for 95% of the population. Not great for us enthusiast gamers though, but let's face it, we're a small market in the overall scheme of things.

I'd prefer a neural interface that can directly communicate my thoughts to the phone by then. :)
 
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Blitzvogel

Platinum Member
Oct 17, 2010
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#54
Desktop is dead and if Intel follows that plan they'll go under. People don't care about how powerful desktop computers are outside of a niche crowd of people. Mobile is the future. They HAVE to compete in the mobile space... like microsoft they are a bit late to the game.

Intel relies on server revenue and providing 8 core chips for cheap prices just costs them revenue which is why they don't do it (and lack of competition)

I'd prefer a neural interface that can directly communicate my thoughts to the phone by then. :)
As long as the server space exists, PC builders technically can still exists too. Desktop builders are a pretty decently sized market, one that spends quite a bit of money on high performance and good-binned parts (not cheap shit), and with PC gaming on the up and up, I foresee it being around for quite a long time. The basic consumer desktop market may be drying up, but that doesn't reflect custom, boutique and business vendors where the desktop still commands the best value for performance and longevity.
 
Aug 25, 2001
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#55
The basic consumer desktop market may be drying up,
What I don't get is, why aren't there NUCs (or other miniPCs) on the shelves at Walmart? Or Target? Or Intel Compute Sticks? (They've got ChromeCasts at Staples, and I think Roku sticks at various retailers too.)

My local BestBuy's computer section got renovated into a "Microsoft Store" inside the BB, which is kind of nice. They carry the HP Stream Mini, and the Asus VivoPC.
 

ehume

Golden Member
Nov 6, 2009
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#56
I would like to see all components made EMP-resistant. Even fans are electronic and susceptible to EMP -- and we are overdue for a solar EMP like the one in the 1800's.

The Voltage should be something other that 12v, so that old EMP-sensitive equipment could not be used. This would also be a good time for systems to go to a single Voltage.

I thought 10v would be nice so that the PSU could charge a battery, then during power outages could draw the Voltage down, purifying the current from the battery. But then I realized that this would require more Amps, and thus heavier cables. So we should look at 16 Volts. I think the 20 Volts would be too close to the 19 Volts we already get for laptops and such.

Anyway:

1. EMP-resistant stuff

2. Operating on a single Voltage, incompatible with all EMP-sensitive stuff.
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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#57
A general comment: I thought this thread was about how to improve the desktop PC. Just saying that the desktop is dead is not so productive. Isn't this thread about ways to resurrect the desktop or make it take another path than a death spin? :confused:
 

Fjodor2001

Diamond Member
Feb 6, 2010
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#58
Desktop is dead and if Intel follows that plan they'll go under. People don't care about how powerful desktop computers are outside of a niche crowd of people. Mobile is the future. They HAVE to compete in the mobile space... like microsoft they are a bit late to the game.
I'm well aware of that the mobile phone and tablet segment is important. The problem is that Intel has been trying to be successful in that segment for years without succeeding. They are losing $4B a year in mobile alone(!). That is a lot of money even for Intel. And at some point you have to ask the question when it is time to give up, no matter how important that segment is. I know Intel keeps saying that next year, that's when they'll succeed, but it never happens.

As for mobile PCs (notebooks/ultrabooks/...), that's also an important segment, and one in which Intel is doing very well. So that they should of course not give up.
 

BSim500

Golden Member
Jun 5, 2013
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#59
IMO in the next decade smart phones will just dock with a monitor/keyboard/mouse and that will be sufficient processing power for 95% of the population.
You can already do that today with Windows tablets + USB hub + HDMI output. The problem as usual is not "processing power" but ergonomics & usability experience (cut down versions of Office & awkward file explorers for 95% of the market running Android/Apple devices, limited RAM & local storage space, poor multitasking, etc).

I tried using a tablet for mobile work. I stuck it out all of two weeks before going back to an ultra-portable. On a 9hr battery tablet I was getting barely 2hrs work done over that 8-9hrs. On a 6hr battery ultraport, I was getting 5.5hrs work done (ie, double the work in 2/3rds of the time). They are simply not the "magic beans" universal productivity devices some tablet salesmen are persistently trying to push purely because you can plug a keyboard & screen into it...
 

JimmiG

Platinum Member
Feb 24, 2005
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#60
The mobile phone/tablet market will soon be "dead", too. Compared to the early days, evolution has slowed to a crawl. Device manufacturers are just playing around with slight variations of the previous year's design, and mobile SoCs have hit the same thermal/power brick wall that PC's hit a decade ago. People don't need a new phone every year any more, because the one they own has more power than they'll ever need.

The traditional PC players need to focus on getting the experience more streamlined and faster. No task should take longer on a powerful PC than a cheap tablet, that's just unacceptable. When you get a new mobile device, you just sign into a few accounts and *boom*, all your apps and settings are brought over from your old device. With a new PC, you'll spend days reisntalling, uninstalling and configuring. Scrolling is buttery smooth on a $200 phone, but choppy on an overclocked, high-end PC. Even with a SSD, I feel like I spend more time waiting for my PC than my phone.
 
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Apr 22, 2012
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#61
And probably 100% of businesses and 100% of government agencies and probably 100% of schools / colleges.

I am amused by Shintai's hyperbole, though. To call an industry good for sales of roughly 60 to 70 million units per quarter a dead industry is downright funny. It may be in decline -- but there will always be a market for businesses / schools / and high-end home users. There isn't a laptop built that doesn't choke on 4K video editing compared to what a DDR4-equipped Intel desktop can do.
Is 4K video editing really your best desktop excuse? :$

Schools and businesses barely buys any desktops here. If they do its rather workstations. All they buy is laptops for the kids/students/workers. The only people left really that buys desktops today is (mainstream/highend) gamers. And retailers often list laptops to desktops in a 5:1 ratio. And those desktops includes iMacs and NUC style PCs.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
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#62
You can't play 4K on mobile -- heck, even 720p is lousy on the majority of mobile.
Utter rubbish. 1080p hardware decoding is widespread in mobile SoCs, and 4k decode is starting to appear. The Tegra X1 can handle 4k60 content in hardware decode, others will get the same capabilities.

Media consumption consists of decoding a handful of common codecs- a perfect problem for dedicated hardware. You don't need an 8 core Haswell.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
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#63
Remember the Google modular phone?

Pc makers should make their components modular like that. Makes it easier to upgrade components, less risk of electrostatic shock. So like have a cpu module, connect over to hard drive module and video card module. Each module being self-contained with metal contacts for data and power transfer.
 
Aug 25, 2001
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#64
Utter rubbish. 1080p hardware decoding is widespread in mobile SoCs, and 4k decode is starting to appear. The Tegra X1 can handle 4k60 content in hardware decode, others will get the same capabilities.

Media consumption consists of decoding a handful of common codecs- a perfect problem for dedicated hardware. You don't need an 8 core Haswell.
Which is all the more reason, that a small-ish desktop-class chip, like the Athlon 5350 and A68-6410, should have no problems decoding 4K. Yet, they cannot.
 

NTMBK

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2011
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#65
Which is all the more reason, that a small-ish desktop-class chip, like the Athlon 5350 and A68-6410, should have no problems decoding 4K. Yet, they cannot.
That would be because the standard for the 4K codec was finalised after those chips were taped out.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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#66
Which is all the more reason, that a small-ish desktop-class chip, like the Athlon 5350 and A68-6410, should have no problems decoding 4K. Yet, they cannot.
Neither can a Haswell+E+R9 390X because the UVD is broken in that GCN version.
 
Mar 9, 2005
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#67
It's refreshing to see this thread alive with many different opinions on computing. I personally prefer a desktop to any other form of computing. I like to sit in front of a large high quality monitor with a fully functional backlit mechanical keyboard with hi-fi audio emanating from it. Laptops and tablet have their place and I use both of them on a regular basis when a desktop is not available but I wouldn't want to forgo using a desktop just because I have them. Each has its own place and I respect that. I use a smartphone but I wouldn't want to try to replace any of my pc's with it.

Taking a look around at how many different vehicles we drive could you imagine what it would be like if we were all forced to drive a compact car? I love full size crew cab trucks and wouldn't want anybody to force me into something that I do not want. Computers are the same way. Couldn't you just envision a data farm with all smart phones? The mere thought of such a things makes me laugh. Everything has its proper place and I'll leave the Cray's to the farming so we can all have access to high speed data retrieval.
 
Apr 22, 2012
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#68
I am quite sure we all in this thread are desktop users and will continue with that. But there is also a reality otuside this thread.
 
Mar 27, 2009
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#69
Windows 10 IoT for industry devices lists desktop shell and universal apps along with 1GB and 16GB storage requirement.

I wonder what happens if I buy a low end bay trail board that supports Windows 10 IoT and try to use it as a desktop? How much utility can the average person get out something like this? Just curious.
According to Tom's Dell Wyse thin client will use Windows 10 IoT for an OS.

http://www.tomsitpro.com/articles/dell-windows-10-iot-enterprise-thin-client,1-2746.html

CPU is AMD G series quad core. According to AMD these are clocked between 1.0 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz ---> http://www.amd.com/Documents/AMDGSeriesSOCProductBrief.pdf
 
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Denly

Senior member
May 14, 2011
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#70
Microsoft's ecosystem is awesome. This weekend I was working on a spreadsheet and seamlessly transitioned from my desktop, to a tablet, to my laptop.
How so? office 365? One drive? I am using W7P w/ office 2013 PC/W8.1 Table with whatever office it come with/WP 8.1 whatever office it come with and I have no idea how.

It was seriously pretty awesome. And with the dockable WP (scalable metro apps) + control of WP10 phones from W10, the ecosystem is only getting better. Assuming the new premium Lumias are good, I may switch to Windows Phone, and just use my Nexus 7 for the few apps I can't do without that don't have replacements on WP (hopefully yet).
Is it comfirm? I don't aware of them.
 

Denly

Senior member
May 14, 2011
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#71
Is 4K video editing really your best desktop excuse? :$

Schools and businesses barely buys any desktops here. If they do its rather workstations. All they buy is laptops for the kids/students/workers. The only people left really that buys desktops today is (mainstream/highend) gamers. And retailers often list laptops to desktops in a 5:1 ratio. And those desktops includes iMacs and NUC style PCs.
I happen to work at a large integrator that specialize in NA school board, we alone sold 20k+ PC, 20k+ laptop and a couple thousand chromebook to just school board. And that is just 1 month. Yet you're right.

And to posters that said PC is dead, wake me up when phone can support 3 LCDs, open 10 excel files, 5 word files, email, CRM, order entry, inventory programs, a few IE with 5+ tabs on each. That is almost the min for today's company.

For personal use, let me know when a phone can support 3 LCDs, a few TB of storage, DXO RAW on one screen, PS on another screen, IE, music, 10 USBs, optical drive.
 

dark zero

Platinum Member
Jun 2, 2015
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#72
The answer is simple.

Intel and Ms MUST merge and ditch AMD permanently. They just pay their debts in exchange of the x86 licence.

Similar with VIA and minor brands.

Then merge or buy nVIDIA, ditch their ARM license and finally ditch Apple and Linux from most Ms,Intel products.

With that they can be calm and focus on Mobile with PC power and really powerful and optimized desktops.

Yeah, they lose some customers, but that will end return since they would be the only avaliable option there.

And that's how they can win the whole market.
 
Oct 6, 2014
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#73
Then merge or buy nVIDIA, ditch their ARM license and finally ditch Apple and Linux from most Ms,Intel products.
I don't think you really understand the relation of Open Source and Intel here. Perhaps you are too young but Intel was behind the Carrier Grade Linux, a way to introduce Xeon into the datacenter.

Also Intel is the very good citizen in the Open Source, it was the top kernel contributor last year. Here is a list of projects where Intel is involved:

https://01.org/community?qt-projects_aggregated_links=2
 

pablo87

Senior member
Nov 5, 2012
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#74
There's no point really - don't think they care as 99% of profits are from corporate and Government - can't force a horse to drink. Also, having dealt with them, the Execs are not familiar with the territory, they rely on maps.

Just look at the PC's at your local stores (the CC, WM, BB "computer" depts are always a good chuckle):

- still "featuring" Winchester hard drives.
- all kinds of annoying bloatware
- 99% have integrated video that is inadequate for gaming.
- usually inadequate power supply

its like a lot of other stuff out there - cheap cheap cheap.

Knowledgeable Consumers are buying:

- DIY Gaming Rigs
- Chromebooks ($179 11hr batt life decent screen, keyboard, light)
- 10" tablets
- smartphones (the Moto G is a sweet deal for $100 no contract).
- Consoles (ease of use).

//rant
 
Aug 6, 2014
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#75
Realize that the entire PC industry is approximately 300 million units per year. Do you really think traditional desktop towers make up the majority of PC sales? ;)
Just about everyone knows that laptops are where the volume is. But laptops still can't match the performance of performance desktops -- and as long as that gap exists, there will always be a market for those high end desktops.
 


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