What the heck happened to DVI support on ATI AIW 9600!??

[computer]

I've been using an AIW Radeon 7500 since it came out. I just ordered the 9600 AIW since it's 8x AGP. Imagine my horror when I see you can't use a digital LCD monitor with these POS cards!! Not only do the ATI jerks downgrade features in each new MMC release, but I see now they expect you to pay $150+ more for a friggin' 8x AGP AIW card that will work with a DVI monitor!!!! My current AIW Radeon 7500 even has the DVI interface!! Does anyone know of any 8x TV Tuner/Capture cards with the AIW's features that support digital LCD monitors that cost what the AIW 9600 does?
Thanks.

 

[rbV5]

There are a few AIW models that are VGA only, so you need to shop carefully when you spend your hard earned money. You realize that 8X AGP amounts to virtually nothing right? You could try a personal cinema card, the 5600 model is a little more than an AIW 9600, but has an impressive feature set and supports DVI. Out of curiosity, whih features are you seeing as a downgrade with each MMC release?

 

[computer]

But why would the newer, better, faster AIW cards have less support??? This makes absolutely no sense since you can get DVI video cards for probably $20. The P4C800-E Deluxe has an 8x AGP, so I thought I may as well use it. Benchmark wise I would think an 8x AGP is much faster than a 4x. I tested my AIW Radeon 7500 against a 9600SE and most cases the 9600SE blew it away. Could be due to chipset, and/or 8x AGP.

I have an AIW 128 Pro on an old PC over here, that MMC version is MUCH better. I think 6.xx was the good versions, and after 7 or 7.1 is when they removed the noise reduction option, and in some anencephalic rage felt the need to make the damn MMC control panel undockable causing you to have to drag that SOB all over the screen with every move you made of the TV window! They obviously don't use their own products. There are some other things that escape me now since it's been a long time since I used an older MMC version.

Chaintech usually sucks and that's the cheapest Personal Cinema 5600 card ($183), is that vendor of this ok or should another be considered? Heck I only see two other brands of it at Pricewatch, Inno3D ($203) and eVGA ($192). The eVGA is 256mb. Is this card as good as the plain nVidia 5600 and how does it stack up against the AIW 9600?
Thanks.

 

[rbV5]

But why would the newer, better, faster AIW cards have less support???

AIW 9600 brings other features not available on other models (dual head and FM tuner(XT/pro) and RW2) ATI makes several models with different feature sets.

Benchmark wise I would think an 8x AGP is much faster than a 4x.

Its not though.

tested my AIW Radeon 7500 against a 9600SE and most cases the 9600SE blew it away. Could be due to chipset, and/or 8x AGP

Its not due to 8x AGP guaranteed. 9600se is a crippled POS, but AIW 7500 is DX7 tech ~ GF2 ultra speeds, Multimedia features are still excellent though but its a big long in the tooth for gaming purposes.

I have an AIW 128 Pro on an old PC over here, that MMC version is MUCH better

If you say so, but I can't disagree more MMC9.0 is hands down the best MMC IMHO.

after 7 or 7.1 is when they removed the noise reduction option, and in some anencephalic rage felt the need to make the damn MMC control panel undockable causing you to have to drag that SOB all over the screen with every move you made of the TV window!

Ever hear of Video Soap? You are incorrect on the control panel, mines not docked.

Is this card as good as the plain nVidia 5600 and how does it stack up against the AIW 9600?

No idea, IMHO, when NV finally releases Forceware Multimedia Suite, they may have something, but IMHO WinDVR isn't up to MMC quality, It does have native YPbPr output and NVDVD is much more feature packed than ATI DVD however, so it may be just what you are looking for.

 

[computer]

Rick, are you saying that MMC v9's control panel is docked? When you move the screen as you're watching TV to another area of your monitor, or resize the TV screen, the controls at the bottom (where you click to record, capture image, etc) are dragged along with the screen? I haven't tried 9 yet. A review I read said it was too buggy.

I've heard of Video Soap, I may even have it around here somewhere but I never tried it. What would it offer?

I don't watch or create DVD's on my PC. I only use the AIW capture features for SVHS, TV, VCR, digicam, etc., and record & watch TV.

 

[rbV5]

Rick, are you saying that MMC v9's control panel is docked?

No, I guess I misunderstood you. It is not docked, it is a seperate control from the viewing window (or hidden) Personally I prefer it undocked, and to be honest I've not tried to see if you can dock it (I was glad they dumped the old interface myself) I do wish they offered skin support beyond the crappy skins though.

I've heard of Video Soap, I may even have it around here somewhere but I never tried it. What would it offer?

It is a set of filters used to clean up the image of captured video. It is supported in hardware on AIW 9xxx cards.

I suppose you're looking for better gaming performance, otherwise the AIW 7500 is still a fine card(I use one in one of my rigs still) Maybe return the 9600 and pick up a 9800pro or something for gaming and trade your old AIW 7500 for a seperate tuner? Pick up a refurb AIW 9700 from newegg (when a cheap one pops up, they seem a bit more expensive these days) and re-use the cables from your AIW 7500.

 

[computer]

There's also an instant reply for live TV feature that was on v6.xx-7.xx and that was also removed from 8.xx and later.

I found this pdf, http://www.ati.com/support/manualpdf/mmcguide.pdf and the search engine result description shows MMC9, and I even searched for " "Multimedia Center 9" review ", and that pdf turned up. But it says v9 in it in ONE area only, and the images within it though show the old MMC version! The review I saw on it showed screen shots and they were exactly like MMC v7 thru at least what I use now, v8.5. So, that pdf must be an error. I certainly hope it's correct though. BTW, MMC v6.xx can still be used with newer AIW cards (like the AIW 7500), just not on XP.

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Rick, are you saying that MMC v9's control panel is docked?

No, I guess I misunderstood you. It is not docked, it is a seperate control from the viewing window (or hidden) Personally I prefer it undocked, and to be honest I've not tried to see if you can dock it (I was glad they dumped the old interface myself) I do wish they offered skin support beyond the crappy skins though.

I've heard of Video Soap, I may even have it around here somewhere but I never tried it. What would it offer?

It is a set of filters used to clean up the image of captured video. It is supported in hardware on AIW 9xxx cards.

I suppose you're looking for better gaming performance, otherwise the AIW 7500 is still a fine card(I use one in one of my rigs still) Maybe return the 9600 and pick up a 9800pro or something for gaming and trade your old AIW 7500 for a seperate tuner? Pick up a refurb AIW 9700 from newegg (when a cheap one pops up, they seem a bit more expensive these days) and re-use the cables from your AIW 7500.

Oh well, that sucks. I don't see how you prefer the controls undocked since it causes you to have to drag twice for every move of the window. The MSI "TV5200-VTDF128 FX5200 PERSONAL CINEMA" looks nice and it's cheap, guess I'll have to look it at. It has instant replay and channel surf, but I can't find out if its controls are dockable. No screen shots anywhere of it.

No, I don't game any but it would be nice to someday. The only reason I want to get another card is because of these annoying non-docking controls, no instant replay, and noise reduction being on all the time. I didn't clarify earlier about that......the older versions you could turn NR OFF or ON, but on the newer versions it's on ALL the time making the TV picture horrible looking compared to v 6.xx. So, a 3rd party app wouldn't fix that while watching TV.

I tried a "Leadtek Winfast TV2000XP Deluxe" PCI add-in card, and it's picture is totally awesome, blows the AIW away. Unfortunately it has no features and every other time you change the channel, it goes to full screen and stays that way until you double click the screen! There's a lot of other PCI add-in tuner/capture cards out there, waaaay too many to buy each and try them. So, I don't know what to do.

The problem with the refurb AIW units I've seen @newegg is they come with no accessories or cables which makes them pretty much useless for MM functions.

This all most annoying and depressing. I don't know why ATI just can't leave well enough alone....sort of like these changes at this forum.

And thanks for your input.

 

[rbV5]

BTW, MMC v6.xx can still be used with newer AIW cards (like the AIW 7500), just not on XP.

LOL, no thanks. Thats definately the old version pdf. You can get all the MMC manuals Here

There's also an instant reply for live TV feature that was on v6.xx-7.xx and that was also removed from 8.xx and later

Well, I'm pretty confident in saying the PVR features are VASTLY improved from those old versions.

 

[rbV5]

The problem with the refurb AIW units I've seen @newegg is they come with no accessories or cables which makes them pretty much useless for MM functions

Your cables from the AIW 7500 will work with the newer AIW cards (except AIW 9600 and 8500dv)

Oh well, that sucks. I don't see how you prefer the controls undocked since it causes you to have to drag twice for every move of the window.

I don't drag the controls around (why would you have to?) and I use the remote when I output to my big screen anyway

 

[computer]

Your cables from the AIW 7500 will work with the newer AIW cards (except AIW 9600 and 8500dv)

Are you SURE? If so, that's pretty good, but why would they work for the AIW 9700 or AIW 9800, but not the 9600 AIW series?

Having the controls on the desktop or anywhere on the monitor screen is intrusive. I've ruined my F2 key having to hit that SOB every #$%& time I execute the MMC. I even tried to create a batch file to initiate a delayed F2 after MMC execution, but never could get it to work.

 

[computer]

As far as having a DVI option, I could always get the TV Wonder Pro and a decent 8x AGP card w/DVI, that's cheaper than the AIW 9600 and it of course without the DVI. But that still leaves the issues with MMC.

 

[rbV5]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your cables from the AIW 7500 will work with the newer AIW cards (except AIW 9600 and 8500dv)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Are you SURE? If so, that's pretty good, but why would they work for the AIW 9700 or AIW 9800, but not the 9600 AIW series?

Positive, I have several AIW cards. AIW 9600 has a different display interface with the dual VGA connectors included in the multi-plug. The only difference between the AIW 7500 and AIW 9700pro/9800pro cabling is you get an additional TV-out connector for YPbPr output.

 

[computer]

Thanks Rick.

So, I guess I need some input from anyone regarding other TV Tuner/Capture options. Either add-on PCI cards, or combo video cards similar to the AIW series like the "MSI TV5200-VTDF128 FX5200 Personal Cinema" for example. It seems to have all the features, but I still can't find out if its "functions control panel" controls will dock to the TV screen.

 

[Peter]

PCI TV cards w/ Philips chipset is the choice of the day. The latest ones have an all-standards silicon tuner, no more chunky shielded box w/ loads of analog stuff inside. Leadtek has them.

 

[rbV5]

You might also try another software also with your AIW 7500. This thread has some info on ShadowStream v.2.0. Its a small download and IIRC the controls are all available by clicking on the Viewing window. For such a small size, its pretty feature packed and supports AIW. Worth a shot?

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: Peter
PCI TV cards w/ Philips chipset is the choice of the day. The latest ones have an all-standards silicon tuner, no more chunky shielded box w/ loads of analog stuff inside. Leadtek has them.

Thanks. So how are they feature wise? (This new forum BS sucks off the chart). :disgust:

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: rbV5
You might also try another software also with your AIW 7500. This thread has some info on ShadowStream v.2.0. Its a small download and IIRC the controls are all available by clicking on the Viewing window. For such a small size, its pretty feature packed and supports AIW. Worth a shot?

Thanks I'll check it out.

 

[computer]

That software looks pretty nice, I like it but it has a few quirks. Mono only no stereo, there's no way of fixing the aspect ratio when I resize the window, no brightness or color settings (it's too dark on my monitor with its settings and I have to brighten my monitor to see TV), and when I exit it the settings aren't being saved. It's amazing this small file even works at all since you don't even install anything and it's only 24k in size!

Someone mentioned http://www.snapstream.com so I'll take a look at it.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: computer
Rick, are you saying that MMC v9's control panel is docked? When you move the screen as you're watching TV to another area of your monitor, or resize the TV screen, the controls at the bottom (where you click to record, capture image, etc) are dragged along with the screen? I haven't tried 9 yet. A review I read said it was too buggy.

I've heard of Video Soap, I may even have it around here somewhere but I never tried it. What would it offer?

I don't watch or create DVD's on my PC. I only use the AIW capture features for SVHS, TV, VCR, digicam, etc., and record & watch TV.

Well, I was playing around with MMC and checking something out and I found that you can indeed dock the controls for the TV player to the Viewing window using the "Classic" skin. drag the controls up to the edge of the bottom of the Viewing window until the contols border "flashes" a little (it might take a couple tries) drop it and now the controls are docked to the Viewing window. Undock it by clcking on the controls and dragging away from the viewing window and dropping.

 

[computer]

So how do you get the "Classic" skin? I don't see that option anywhere. What you describe is what was on v6.x of the MMC, but since then on about v7.5 and on, is when they went to that new stupid interface.
Thanks.

 

[computer]

I did some searching and found out about "Eazylook", so I went to that area in the MMC launch pad properties. I found the "skins" tab and changed that to Classic, but it does nothing! Still the same skin. On my "Eazylook" tab it mentions Remote Wonder must be installed. Am I to understand I can't do this unless I buy the remote wonder?? I have the remote of course that came with the AIW Radeon 7500, but I don't think I installed the software since I don't use the remote. So, must the remote's software be installed, and then the classic skin will only work while using the remote control?

 

[computer]

Originally posted by: rbV5

Originally posted by: computer
Rick, are you saying that MMC v9's control panel is docked? When you move the screen as you're watching TV to another area of your monitor, or resize the TV screen, the controls at the bottom (where you click to record, capture image, etc) are dragged along with the screen? I haven't tried 9 yet. A review I read said it was too buggy.

I've heard of Video Soap, I may even have it around here somewhere but I never tried it. What would it offer?

I don't watch or create DVD's on my PC. I only use the AIW capture features for SVHS, TV, VCR, digicam, etc., and record & watch TV.

Well, I was playing around with MMC and checking something out and I found that you can indeed dock the controls for the TV player to the Viewing window using the "Classic" skin. drag the controls up to the edge of the bottom of the Viewing window until the contols border "flashes" a little (it might take a couple tries) drop it and now the controls are docked to the Viewing window. Undock it by clcking on the controls and dragging away from the viewing window and dropping.

Dude you are amazing. I cannot thank you enough. I got it figured out.