What processor for CAD work?

[Smoblikat]

So im building a computer for a customer and they will be doing drafting, design, CAD that sorta stuff. Will more cores help or will a 2500K offer the same performance as a 2600K does.

 

[LurchFrinky]

Unless they are performing FEA, the main bottlenecks will be the graphics (they will need a workstation-class gpu, not gaming) and the memory. If the files are big enough that you can't fit them in memory, then you will also need fast swap space (SSD). If they are doing FEA, then HT won't help anyway. In any case, get the 2500. Were you planning on overclocking?

 

[Diogenes2]

CAD apps should benefit from multi-threading, in which case 2600K would be the best option.

Also many graphic apps use CUDA for rendering, so as many CUDA cores as you can afford is something to consider also ..

 

[PG]

You need to be more specific. What CAD program?

I am an engineer and have been working with Solidworks and other programs for over 10 years. I also have reading reviews and running some benchmarks for a long time too just out of curiosity.

SolidWorks is mostly about the cpu. The gpu is much less important.
Part rebuilds are mostly single threaded, and that is something that happens often as you make changes to parts or assemblies. SolidWorks is multithreaded, but it needs to recalculate how the part should look one feature at a time so it's hard to split that work up to multiple threads, and it can't skip ahead and recalculate features.
Also, rotating a part with the Task Manager open shows that one thread is under load and the others are idle.
So what does this mean? It means you want a fast cpu with the best IPC, which means Intel right now. Get an i5 and you will be set for SolidWorks.
SolidWorks is multithreaded, but the nature of what it does means that extra cores don't get used much at all unless you do rendering or FEA. If you don't do those get an i5. If you do FEA or rendering, then maybe i7.

Professional video cards have very specific features enabled that are not enabled in gaming cards. To be very specific, you get hardware enabled anti-aliased lines and points in Solidworks with the pro cards. One way to view parts and assemblies in SolidWorks is Shaded With Lines. Edges are shown as lines and it's much easier to see what is going on with your parts and assemblies with this enabled. If you have a pro card the lines for the edges are hardware accelerated. Not true with a gaming card.
You also do not get Realview with a gaming card in SolidWorks.
Of course, keep in mind that most of the bottleneck in SolidWorks is the cpu.

Also I have run Specviewperf with lots of different video cards, gaming and professional. The professional cards, Quadro and Firepro, do great of course. On the gaming side AMD/ATI is way ahead of Geforce. From what I have seen Nvidia must be intentionally crippling their gaming cards for professional CAD type applications to force people to buy a Quadro.
One personally tested example that shocked me was that Specviewperf 10 runs faster with the onboard video on a 760G chipset motherboard than a GTX 260 216. No, I'm not kidding. Fermi gaming cards are even slower at Specviewperf vs the old GTX 260/280 generation too.
Anyway, get a V4800 or V4900 Firepro if you want a pro card. Those offer the best bang for the buck for a pro card. Just don't get a Fermi geforce, that is the slowest thing you could buy. If you are an Nvidia fan get a Quadro instead.

I know people might not believe me about the video card part so I googled and found this which seems to match my personal findings: http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/800/

Some tests there are DirectX, so Fermi will do well there. AutoCAD for example is now DirectX. SolidWorks and many CAD programs though are OpenGL though.

edit: If this is for someone who makes money from their CAD work then get a pro video card. If you have Solidworks for example and want support, but have a gaming card, they will tell you that you need to get a supported card. No, gaming cards are not technically supported for SolidWorks. Do they run Solidworks? Yes, but technically these gaming cards are not on the supported hardware list for SolidWorks. Same thing goes for Firepro vs Radeon. Only Firepro are supported. On top of this, SolidWorks has a list of driver versions for video cards that have been tested and are recommended.

 

[Smoblikat]

You need to be more specific. What CAD program?

I am an engineer and have been working with Solidworks and other programs for over 10 years. I also have reading reviews and running some benchmarks for a long time too just out of curiosity.

SolidWorks is mostly about the cpu. The gpu is much less important.
Part rebuilds are mostly single threaded, and that is something that happens often as you make changes to parts or assemblies. SolidWorks is multithreaded, but it needs to recalculate how the part should look one feature at a time so it's hard to split that work up to multiple threads, and it can't skip ahead and recalculate features.
Also, rotating a part with the Task Manager open shows that one thread is under load and the others are idle.
So what does this mean? It means you want a fast cpu with the best IPC, which means Intel right now. Get an i5 and you will be set for SolidWorks.
SolidWorks is multithreaded, but the nature of what it does means that extra cores don't get used much at all unless you do rendering or FEA. If you don't do those get an i5. If you do FEA or rendering, then maybe i7.

Professional video cards have very specific features enabled that are not enabled in gaming cards. To be very specific, you get hardware enabled anti-aliased lines and points in Solidworks with the pro cards. One way to view parts and assemblies in SolidWorks is Shaded With Lines. Edges are shown as lines and it's much easier to see what is going on with your parts and assemblies with this enabled. If you have a pro card the lines for the edges are hardware accelerated. Not true with a gaming card.
You also do not get Realview with a gaming card in SolidWorks.
Of course, keep in mind that most of the bottleneck in SolidWorks is the cpu.

Also I have run Specviewperf with lots of different video cards, gaming and professional. The professional cards, Quadro and Firepro, do great of course. On the gaming side AMD/ATI is way ahead of Geforce. From what I have seen Nvidia must be intentionally crippling their gaming cards for professional CAD type applications to force people to buy a Quadro.
One personally tested example that shocked me was that Specviewperf 10 runs faster with the onboard video on a 760G chipset motherboard than a GTX 260 216. No, I'm not kidding. Fermi gaming cards are even slower at Specviewperf vs the old GTX 260/280 generation too.
Anyway, get a V4800 or V4900 Firepro if you want a pro card. Those offer the best bang for the buck for a pro card. Just don't get a Fermi, that is the slowest thing you could buy.

I know people might not believe me about the video card part so I googled and found this which seems to match my personal findings: http://www.behardware.com/art/imprimer/800/

Some tests there are DirectX, so Fermi will do well there. AutoCAD for example is now DirectX. SolidWorks and many CAD programs though are OpenGL though.

Im not exactly sure what program he runs, but if its solidworks ill get an I5, thanks for that input. I was also going to get a GTX 480 for him, since its 210$ @ the egg right now, would a 4800/4900 be better off in general (again, i dont know what programs he exactly runs yet since he hasnt called back) or would the 480 win due to its many cuda cores?

 

[Smoblikat]

Unless they are performing FEA, the main bottlenecks will be the graphics (they will need a workstation-class gpu, not gaming) and the memory. If the files are big enough that you can't fit them in memory, then you will also need fast swap space (SSD). If they are doing FEA, then HT won't help anyway. In any case, get the 2500. Were you planning on overclocking?

Yes, were going self contained liquid and OCing the hell out of whatever it is we get. Im getting 16gb (2x8gb) 1333, will the speed of the RAM affect performance or is amount the deal breaker. Also, If we put all of the CAD programs on a SSD would that act as a swap space, though im not sure what swap space really means, or should we do somthing different? We are definitley going to be getting a 500gb or 1tb 7200RPM for storage so we do have extra room. Again, for graphics will a 480 beat a v4900 (in general) or will the V4900 still win due to its being geared towards professional work.

EDIT - Also, would it be better to get a 2500K and put the extra money towards an even better GPU (i can go up to a 350$ card if we go 2500K) or is CAD and that sorta pro stuff generally more CPu limited rather than GPU?

 

[LurchFrinky]

Swap space is space set aside on your hard drive(s) for your OS to read and write to when it runs out of memory. Because your memory is muuuch faster than your hard drive (even SSD) you will experience a substantial decrease in performance when this happens. IOW, more RAM beats faster RAM. In CADD, the entire model needs to be loaded in memory and really large models/assemblies can slow your computer to a crawl due to the disk IO. Setting your swap space on an SSD will help over a HDD, but is no substitute for more RAM. Setting your swap space too small can cause your PC to lockup.
In Windows, this space is referred to as the paging file and you can control the size and location. Installing the programs on the SSD will make them load faster, but actually means nothing if you run low on memory.

My computer at work (which was spec'd by a student worker) actually uses a gaming card - possibly a 480 and it works just fine. Mind you, I consider my CADD work to be light as I only open single, usually simple, parts and small assemblies. The processor is a core2quad of some type (3 years old or so). But if your customer expects to be making money on this machine, then don't even consider giving him/her anything less than a Firepro card.

 

[Smoblikat]

Swap space is space set aside on your hard drive(s) for your OS to read and write to when it runs out of memory. Because your memory is muuuch faster than your hard drive (even SSD) you will experience a substantial decrease in performance when this happens. IOW, more RAM beats faster RAM. In CADD, the entire model needs to be loaded in memory and really large models/assemblies can slow your computer to a crawl due to the disk IO. Setting your swap space on an SSD will help over a HDD, but is no substitute for more RAM. Setting your swap space too small can cause your PC to lockup.
In Windows, this space is referred to as the paging file and you can control the size and location. Installing the programs on the SSD will make them load faster, but actually means nothing if you run low on memory.

My computer at work (which was spec'd by a student worker) actually uses a gaming card - possibly a 480 and it works just fine. Mind you, I consider my CADD work to be light as I only open single, usually simple, parts and small assemblies. The processor is a core2quad of some type (3 years old or so). But if your customer expects to be making money on this machine, then don't even consider giving him/her anything less than a Firepro card.

Excellent information, do you think a 60gb SSD will be enough fro W7 X64, his CAD programs, and maybe a 6GB page file? Im not sure how much space CAD programs take up and their temp data. So i guess ill go with a V4900 over a 480 since my customer expects this computer to pay for itself, though im not exactly sure why a 480 is slower th a V4900. can someone please explain to me why its so much worse, it has MUCH more raw power.

 

[RavenSEAL]

Something alongside the lines of a 2500K, but most importantly, you need a workstation graphics card (ala Quadro or FirePro).

 

[Smoblikat]

Something alongside the lines of a 2500K, but most importantly, you need a workstation graphics card (ala Quadro or FirePro).

Is it more important to have a better CPU or GPU? Why is a V4900 better than a GTX 480 for CAD and that sorta stuff, its so much smaller and has less of everything.

 

[PG]

So i guess ill go with a V4900 over a 480 since my customer expects this computer to pay for itself, though im not exactly sure why a 480 is slower th a V4900. can someone please explain to me why its so much worse, it has MUCH more raw power.

It's all in the drivers. Nvidia doesn't enable certain features needed for good professional application performance in the Geforce line of cards. If you want good professional CAD performance you need to get the Quadro. It's the same thing on the AMD side of things, but the gap is closer.

The quadro version of the GTX 480 probably has the same gpu but would be a monster because the drivers enable the professional features.

Check these out:

GTX 280 vs Quadro
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/quadro-fx-4800,2258-10.html
Note the quadro, with less cuda cores and lower memory bandwidth, is 10X faster at Solidworks.
There is no possible reason for this except for drivers.

4870 vs FirePro
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-firepro-v8700,2154-10.html
The Firepro is 3X faster at SolidWorks than the 4870, and they have the same GPU.
Again, it has to be a driver issue.

 

[PG]

Is it more important to have a better CPU or GPU? Why is a V4900 better than a GTX 480 for CAD and that sorta stuff, its so much smaller and has less of everything.

CPU is more important. The cpu does most of the work for everything, even rendering in SolidWorks. Other programs may be different, but are probably similar.

See my previous reply about pro vs gaming cards.

 

[BlackBanna]

CPU is more important. The cpu does most of the work for everything, even rendering in SolidWorks. Other programs may be different, but are probably similar.

See my previous reply about pro vs gaming cards.

Like PG, I've built several cad machines mostly for AUTOCAD. If you haven't already, you should be taking notes from him. Everything he has told you is spot on.

The processor needs to be a high Hz/IPC. The best option for this is an I5/I7 processor.
The application is largely single threaded, but most drafters/designers are using multiple programs; email, excel, PDF, running live data base to the project, imports and exports.

If you are running 2D, you don't need a professional grade card. If you are in 3D you need a quadro/fire pro. If you take anything away from this, this is it.

I recommend putting raptors in a raid for a cad system. If you are going to use an SSD, you need a minimum of 120G, 180G+ is preferable. Drafters keep a lot of drawings around as standards and templets. In addition to any other number of software that they have on the machine, like CESAR. Data recovery and maintenance is a little easier too.

 

[Smoblikat]

CPU is more important. The cpu does most of the work for everything, even rendering in SolidWorks. Other programs may be different, but are probably similar.

See my previous reply about pro vs gaming cards.

I dont see a comparison between HD4870 and fireGL 8800, but ill take your word for it. So what youre saying is that a V4900 will be better for CAD than a GTX 480 even though the 480 is bigger and badder.

 

[PG]

I dont see a comparison between HD4870 and fireGL 8800, but ill take your word for it. So what youre saying is that a V4900 will be better for CAD than a GTX 480 even though the 480 is bigger and badder.

Maybe I got the link wrong, it is here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-firepro-v8700,2154-10.html

4870 vs FirePro V8700

Anyway, you are right, the GTX 480 hardware is much better than you get with the v4900 but the drivers on the GTX 480 do not have professional features enabled so the hardware sits at idle and does nothing for you when you need it. The V4900 would be a much better choice. There are also drivers available for that card, and any recently made professional card, tested and certified by the company who make the CAD program.
SolidWorks certified drivers are here for example: http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/videocardtesting.html
Then if your customer has graphics problems or glitches he can get support from SolidWorks vs having SolidWorks telling him to go buy a supported card. Then he calls you and complains that you didn't buy him a supported card.

 

[Smoblikat]

Maybe I got the link wrong, it is here: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-firepro-v8700,2154-10.html

4870 vs FirePro V8700

Anyway, you are right, the GTX 480 hardware is much better than you get with the v4900 but the drivers on the GTX 480 do not have professional features enabled so the hardware sits at idle and does nothing for you when you need it. The V4900 would be a much better choice. There are also drivers available for that card, and any recently made professional card, tested and certified by the company who make the CAD program.
SolidWorks certified drivers are here for example: http://www.solidworks.com/sw/support/videocardtesting.html
Then if your customer has graphics problems or glitches he can get support from SolidWorks vs having SolidWorks telling him to go buy a supported card. Then he calls you and complains that you didn't buy him a supported card.

That makes much more sense. So it does have more hardware, but the hardware isnt even slightly useful for the type of application even though its "bigger". Excellent, not i can down size the PSU and motherboard. Thanks man, you just saved my customer some money, which means i get more buisness

EDIT - So should i get an 8120, 2500K, or 2600K for CAD. Im leaning towards 2600K but if the 8120 does the same thing as that then ill get that.

EDIT - EDIT - The only program he runs is autoCAD. So are we still saying that GTX 480 is better versus a V4900. And which processor would be best, 8120 or 2600K?

 

[LurchFrinky]

I recommend putting raptors in a raid for a cad system. If you are going to use an SSD, you need a minimum of 120G, 180G+ is preferable. Drafters keep a lot of drawings around as standards and templets. In addition to any other number of software that they have on the machine, like CESAR. Data recovery and maintenance is a little easier too.

The RAID is a very good point. You will need to load the drawings from the hard drive to memory and slow drives = waiting to work. And this is for the data where you will need large capacity as well. You can still have an SSD for OS and programs. Back in the day it could take 30 minutes to load large AutoCad drawings and their associated blocks from the IDE hard drive.

About a year ago I built a couple of workstations for HPC work (LSDyna and ANSYS mostly), but there isn't a lot of data for how to go about it - much like you are finding out in this thread. The first one had a budget of $1500 and was a single MagnyCours processor, 32GB RAM, 150 GB 10k OS drive, 2 x 160 GB? HDD in RAID0 (for swap space), and 500 GB HDD for data. It turns out that the models were not so big and the RAM and RAID were overkill. It also turns out that, because the machine was so fast, that they were running more complex jobs for longer periods and generating huge data files that filled up the storage in a couple of months.
I learned a few things.
The second one was allowed to be more expensive and was a dual Proc at faster speeds, a 128 GB SSD for OS, files, and swap, and 1TB of HDD for data (the first workstation hadn't filled up yet, so I didn't think I needed bigger). And since the 32 GB of RAM was overkill, we took out 16 GB and put it in this one. His usage was different and he started working on some really big files (30+ GB) and the program would try for a while and then crash. He was running out of memory and Windows was automatically adjusting the page file size on the SSD and thought it needed to be over 60GB. With everything else on the drive, it was actually full. It was an easy enough fix to manually set the page file to something more reasonable and adjust some of the other files on the drive.
Moral of the story, try to find out exactly what programs will be run and what file usage patterns the customer expects. If they are doing CAD work now, then they should be able to tell you.

Side note - Opteron processors really shine in HPC work, but that doesn't mean they are any better at the CAD work mentioned in this thread (although they might).

 

[Smoblikat]

The RAID is a very good point. You will need to load the drawings from the hard drive to memory and slow drives = waiting to work. And this is for the data where you will need large capacity as well. You can still have an SSD for OS and programs. Back in the day it could take 30 minutes to load large AutoCad drawings and their associated blocks from the IDE hard drive.

About a year ago I built a couple of workstations for HPC work (LSDyna and ANSYS mostly), but there isn't a lot of data for how to go about it - much like you are finding out in this thread. The first one had a budget of $1500 and was a single MagnyCours processor, 32GB RAM, 150 GB 10k OS drive, 2 x 160 GB? HDD in RAID0 (for swap space), and 500 GB HDD for data. It turns out that the models were not so big and the RAM and RAID were overkill. It also turns out that, because the machine was so fast, that they were running more complex jobs for longer periods and generating huge data files that filled up the storage in a couple of months.
I learned a few things.
The second one was allowed to be more expensive and was a dual Proc at faster speeds, a 128 GB SSD for OS, files, and swap, and 1TB of HDD for data (the first workstation hadn't filled up yet, so I didn't think I needed bigger). And since the 32 GB of RAM was overkill, we took out 16 GB and put it in this one. His usage was different and he started working on some really big files (30+ GB) and the program would try for a while and then crash. He was running out of memory and Windows was automatically adjusting the page file size on the SSD and thought it needed to be over 60GB. With everything else on the drive, it was actually full. It was an easy enough fix to manually set the page file to something more reasonable and adjust some of the other files on the drive.
Moral of the story, try to find out exactly what programs will be run and what file usage patterns the customer expects. If they are doing CAD work now, then they should be able to tell you.

Side note - Opteron processors really shine in HPC work, but that doesn't mean they are any better at the CAD work mentioned in this thread (although they might).

He strictly does autoCAD. Should we switch over to an opteron/magny cours platform, or will the 2600K be fine. Also hes doing mainly 2D stuff now, but might switch over to 3D in a while ( a good while) should i still get the 4900 now or get the 480.

Also, i dont think RAID is an option because this guy is a college kid. His budget is tight and i dont want to get too many things, ill look into a 120gb SSD, but RAID is out of the question.

 

[LurchFrinky]

He strictly does autoCAD. Should we switch over to an opteron/magny cours platform, or will the 2600K be fine. Also hes doing mainly 2D stuff now, but might switch over to 3D in a while ( a good while) should i still get the 4900 now or get the 480.

Also, i dont think RAID is an option because this guy is a college kid. His budget is tight and i dont want to get too many things, ill look into a 120gb SSD, but RAID is out of the question.

I just did some checking, and it looks like AutoCAD is single-threaded! At least until the 2011 version it was, it is difficult to find hard data on the newer versions. It apparently likes high GHz and doesn't really care about # of cores. This brings us back to an overclocked 2500K. In any case, forget about any AMD solution.

If you are on a budget, you can still do RAID 0, just don't buy the raptors or a raid card. Buy a 120 GB SSD for OS and progs, 2 x 250 GB HDD onboard RAID 0 for drawings, 2 TB for backup of other drives plus non-performance-bound data. Roughly $120 x 3 = $360 for storage.

And as much as I hate to say it, the 480 should be fine for 2D. And being a college student, I'm sure he is going to play some games, so go ahead and let him.

And I doubt he will run into any problems with the swap/paging file, so don't worry about that either. The default is to let Windows manage it - so let it.

 

[Smoblikat]

I just did some checking, and it looks like AutoCAD is single-threaded! At least until the 2011 version it was, it is difficult to find hard data on the newer versions. It apparently likes high GHz and doesn't really care about # of cores. This brings us back to an overclocked 2500K. In any case, forget about any AMD solution.

If you are on a budget, you can still do RAID 0, just don't buy the raptors or a raid card. Buy a 120 GB SSD for OS and progs, 2 x 250 GB HDD onboard RAID 0 for drawings, 2 TB for backup of other drives plus non-performance-bound data. Roughly $120 x 3 = $360 for storage.

And as much as I hate to say it, the 480 should be fine for 2D. And being a college student, I'm sure he is going to play some games, so go ahead and let him.

And I doubt he will run into any problems with the swap/paging file, so don't worry about that either. The default is to let Windows manage it - so let it.

Excellent, well i talked to him and he wants the 2600K for future proofing, but unless hes going to be doing other work that 100$ can be put to better use. Ill go with the 480 since hes mainly doing 2D work and will probobly want to play games. A 120gb SSD is definitley going in, but RAID0 might be out of budget, drives are WAY inflated for prices right now so a single drive will have to suffice. Thanks for all the input everyone who helped me out, thsi build is looking much more sound.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Excellent, well i talked to him and he wants the 2600K for future proofing, but unless hes going to be doing other work that 100$ can be put to better use.

By tomorrow he wants a 3770K...

 

[Smoblikat]

By tomorrow he wants a 3770K...

Actually i would consider that a downgrade from a 2600K, much in the same wya a 3570K would be a downgrade from my 2500K. The temperatures and poor clocking of IVB has really turned me off.

 

[ShintaiDK]

Actually i would consider that a downgrade from a 2600K, much in the same wya a 3570K would be a downgrade from my 2500K. The temperatures and poor clocking of IVB has really turned me off.

Well Ivy just hit 6.76Ghz on LN2:
http://www.oclab.ru/topic/obzor-mat...imus-v-gene-i-protsessora-intel-core-i7-3770k

Not to mention the improved IPC: (Note its not max OC, simply to show when they are equal.)
Core i5-2500K @ 5.00 GHz + GeForce GTX 580 @ 960/1,920/1,100 MHz = 7,991 3DMarks
Core i5-3570K @ 4.55 GHz + GeForce GTX 580 @ 960/1,920/1,100 MHz = 8,014 3DMarks

Not to mention what else you base your conclusion on.

 

[Cerb]

He strictly does autoCAD. Should we switch over to an opteron/magny cours platform, or will the 2600K be fine. Also hes doing mainly 2D stuff now, but might switch over to 3D in a while ( a good while) should i still get the 4900 now or get the 480.

Also, i dont think RAID is an option because this guy is a college kid. His budget is tight and i dont want to get too many things, ill look into a 120gb SSD, but RAID is out of the question.

Tight budget? i5. IB is looking nice, so depending on actual availability, consider it.

College kid, as in an academic version, so it's not pro work? I so, a run of the mill gaming card would be plenty. AutoCAD not only uses very few threads, it's D3D, and you've got to be doing some pretty heavy stuff to get limited by current NV or AMD gaming drivers. IMO, a HD 6670, GTS 450, or thereabouts, should more than suffice.

If getting a slower video card would enable going to an [Intel, Crucial, Samsung, or maybe Plextor] SSD, get a cheaper video card. If it's for pro work, get a cheap card on the supported/recommended list (that's really what you're after, more than performance). Should the video card actually become a bottleneck, then worry about a fast one. IME, it tends not to, with AutoCAD--the CPU/RAM just keep getting hammered, instead.

 

[Smoblikat]

Well Ivy just hit 6.76Ghz on LN2:
http://www.oclab.ru/topic/obzor-mat...imus-v-gene-i-protsessora-intel-core-i7-3770k

Not to mention the improved IPC: (Note its not max OC, simply to show when they are equal.)
Core i5-2500K @ 5.00 GHz + GeForce GTX 580 @ 960/1,920/1,100 MHz = 7,991 3DMarks
Core i5-3570K @ 4.55 GHz + GeForce GTX 580 @ 960/1,920/1,100 MHz = 8,014 3DMarks

Not to mention what else you base your conclusion on.

Im not too concerened with what anything does under LN2, but if you can show me the 3D mark chart, with temperatures, you might just have changed my mind. But temps are the main reason i wont switch over.

Tight budget? i5. IB is looking nice, so depending on actual availability, consider it.

College kid, as in an academic version, so it's not pro work? I so, a run of the mill gaming card would be plenty. AutoCAD not only uses very few threads, it's D3D, and you've got to be doing some pretty heavy stuff to get limited by current NV or AMD gaming drivers. IMO, a HD 6670, GTS 450, or thereabouts, should more than suffice.

If getting a slower video card would enable going to an [Intel, Crucial, Samsung, or maybe Plextor] SSD, get a cheaper video card. If it's for pro work, get a cheap card on the supported/recommended list (that's really what you're after, more than performance). Should the video card actually become a bottleneck, then worry about a fast one. IME, it tends not to, with AutoCAD--the CPU/RAM just keep getting hammered, instead.

Yes, hes in college so hes not working for any huge company, but he does get a good amount of work. Thats interesting that autoCAD is D3D, so a gaming card would perform just as well as a pro card, ill look into a 450/460. Im getting a mushkin SSD, its got great speeds and its 120gb for like 115$ or somthing like that. Is there any place i can go and look up how cards actually perform in autoCAD or is it just guesswork + other peoples experiences?