What percentage of black market weapons originate from legitimate sources?

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BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
Say firearms stolen from either other firearms owners, shipments of firearms destined for authorized resellers that get stolen, etc.

Are there any estimates on what percentage of the total number of black market weapons originate from legitimate sources?

*Edit*

I guess my question is a little strange.

What I was thinking of was black market guns in the US/Canada.

A common statement made when talking about outlawing guns would be that only the criminals would have guns, who would have them regardless of legality so the only people affected would be law abiding citizens.

If guns were outlawed, do you not think that would significantly reduce the number of guns available to the black market in the US? And with that, significantly reduce the amount of crime where a gun was used?

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, I'm just curious to know if I'm off the mark on how the average gun carrying criminal gets access to his weapon. I was just thinking that if guns were more difficult to come by, they probably wouldn't be used in as many crimes.
 
B

bignateyk

Lifer
Apr 22, 2002
11,288
7
0
Originally posted by: BigToque
Say firearms stolen from either other firearms owners, shipments of firearms destined for authorized resellers that get stolen, etc.

Are there any estimates on what percentage of the total number of black market weapons originate from legitimate sources?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I understand the question. At some point, every gun originates from a legitimate source, as assault weapons are legal to produce and sell in many countries.
 
M

mundane

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2002
5,603
8
81
Maybe I'm reading the situation wrong, but I would expect any significant firearm manufacturing operation to require a legitimate presence. The logistics of the process would rule out some back room machining shop for any sizable production run.
 
sdifox

sdifox

No Lifer
Sep 30, 2005
98,415
17,037
126
Close to 100%. There are independent makers (in the middle east) where it is basically a guy with skills handcrafting weapons.
 
Uppsala9496

Uppsala9496

Diamond Member
Nov 2, 2001
5,272
19
81
100%
I have some old research material from the early to mid 90's on the illegal arms trade (from naval craft to small arms) and all of it at one point was intended for one military or another.
 
B

BigToque

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
11,700
0
76
I guess my question is a little strange.

What I was thinking of was black market guns in the US/Canada.

A common statement made when talking about outlawing guns would be that only the criminals would have guns, who would have them regardless of legality so the only people affected would be law abiding citizens.

If guns were outlawed, do you not think that would significantly reduce the number of guns available to the black market in the US? And with that, significantly reduce the amount of crime where a gun was used?

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, I'm just curious to know if I'm off the mark on how the average gun carrying criminal gets access to his weapon. I was just thinking that if guns were more difficult to come by, they probably wouldn't be used in as many crimes.
 
K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,672
42,274
136
Originally posted by: BigToque
I guess my question is a little strange.

What I was thinking of was black market guns in the US/Canada.

A common statement made when talking about outlawing guns would be that only the criminals would have guns, who would have them regardless of legality so the only people affected would be law abiding citizens.

If guns were outlawed, do you not think that would significantly reduce the number of guns available to the black market in the US? And with that, significantly reduce the amount of crime where a gun was used?

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, I'm just curious to know if I'm off the mark on how the average gun carrying criminal gets access to his weapon. I was just thinking that if guns were more difficult to come by, they probably wouldn't be used in as many crimes.
Click to expand...

Putting aside the obviously huge legal and constitutional issues with such a ban, getting rid of even most of the 300+ million guns already here would prove nigh on impossible.

It would also just create a far larger black market arms trade across our borders.
 
T

TheGizmo

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2000
3,627
0
71
I would guess that what you say is true. but it would take a long time to gather all guns from everyone so it would still be a problem for a while. i'm just against the government having that much control over us.

well I guess I could be wrong: http://www.glumbert.com/media/gunmarket seems a lot of guns are 'made' in the black market as well
 
dullard

dullard

Elite Member
May 21, 2001
25,690
4,209
126
In the short term, limiting gun sales will allow fewer law abiding citizens to have them and OLD criminals will not be affected. Potential new criminals (ie law abiding citizens who are starting their crime life) will find it harder to get the guns as they don't have them now and don't know how to get into the black market yet. Result: expect short term gun crime increases as criminals will be more confident.

In the long term, limiting gun sales will limit access that criminals have to guns. But we could never make a major dent in them (too many already out there and too much supply from other countries). However, it will make spotting a criminal and locking them up easy after the crimes were committed. Long term, expect a small decrease in gun crime. But don't expect anything major.

Time for the flames though.
 
M

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
Originally posted by: BigToque

If guns were outlawed, do you not think that would significantly reduce the number of guns available to the black market in the US? And with that, significantly reduce the amount of crime where a gun was used?

I'm not arguing for or against anything here, I'm just curious to know if I'm off the mark on how the average gun carrying criminal gets access to his weapon. I was just thinking that if guns were more difficult to come by, they probably wouldn't be used in as many crimes.
Click to expand...

No, I don't think it would significantly reduce the number of guns available on the black market in the US. I think it would significantly INCREASE the number of guns available if guns were outlawed. A lot of guns would start flowing in from Mexico and Canada into the black market. Why? cuz demand for guns would remain the same so people seeking a profit will compensate by smuggling in more guns.

Also many murders are already carried out by guns smuggled from across the border. Its easier to buy a gun smuggled in from Mexico than to go steal someone's gun to use in a murder. Plus those guns are cheap, just not sure of the quality.
 
TallBill

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
 
K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,672
42,274
136
Originally posted by: TallBill
If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
Click to expand...

You'd probably be called up to disarm the populace...
 
SarcasticDwarf

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
2
76
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: TallBill
If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
Click to expand...

You'd probably be called up to disarm the populace...
Click to expand...

um....


I can't recall if TB is Army or NG, but the Army can't operate on our own soil. The National Guard COULD, but I can't imaging that going over very well as there would be the not so minor problem of soldiers disobeying the order (hint: NEVER give an order that won't be followed).
 
K1052

K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
50,672
42,274
136
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: TallBill
If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
Click to expand...

You'd probably be called up to disarm the populace...
Click to expand...

um....


I can't recall if TB is Army or NG, but the Army can't operate on our own soil. The National Guard COULD, but I can't imaging that going over very well as there would be the not so minor problem of soldiers disobeying the order (hint: NEVER give an order that won't be followed).
Click to expand...

This is all theoretical and you'd have to trample most of the constitution....

The only way to do a mass confiscation would be via the military. The civilian agencies couldn't handle it. Congress could also specifically authorize such a military action.
 
TallBill

TallBill

Lifer
Apr 29, 2001
46,017
62
91
Haha, the Army cant operate on our own soil? Where did you get that retarded idea? So when Canada invades only the NG can help defend the motherland?

Anyways, I'd refuse the order as its unconstitutional. When I rose my hand, I swore to defend the constitution, not the country.
 
mugs

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: K1052
Originally posted by: TallBill
If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
Click to expand...

You'd probably be called up to disarm the populace...
Click to expand...

um....


I can't recall if TB is Army or NG, but the Army can't operate on our own soil. The National Guard COULD, but I can't imaging that going over very well as there would be the not so minor problem of soldiers disobeying the order (hint: NEVER give an order that won't be followed).
Click to expand...

Did you just... make that up? If our Army really can't operate on our own soil (assuming by "operate" you mean something beyond everything they do at bases and whatnot), that would be really short-sighted of us. :laugh:

Do you mean the CIA?
 
A

Atheus

Diamond Member
Jun 7, 2005
7,313
2
0
Originally posted by: TallBill
Haha, the Army cant operate on our own soil? Where did you get that retarded idea? So when Canada invades only the NG can help defend the motherland?

Anyways, I'd refuse the order as its unconstitutional. When I rose my hand, I swore to defend the constitution, not the country.
Click to expand...

If guns were outlawed, I'd be a felon. And if I were older would probably fight to the death with anyone trying to take them.
Click to expand...

What if they ammeded the constitution? Isn't the American right to own weapons contained in an ammendment anyway?

What if you went to another country with a different constitution, and they stopped you at the airport and said 'you can't bring that in here', would you hand it over?

Just wondering if it's a personal philosophy thing or a loyalty thing.
 
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