What .Net training should I do? MCAD bootcamp or traditional class? And where to take the class?

[DT4K]

My boss asked for our training requests for the year and I'm trying to decide what I want to do.
I have a 4 year degree in Computer Science.
I'm a software developer with 3 years experience in mostly VB6 and SQL Server.

I took the official MS course Programming with Visual Basic .Net about a year and a half ago and have done a few small windows and web apps in VB.Net.

I'm planning on getting my MCAD cert this year.

But I'm not sure if it would be better to do an MCAD boot camp type class that prepares you for all 3 tests, or a more traditional class that is focused more on one test subject and do the other two tests through self-study.
I've looked at a 7 day 12 hour a day boot camp that includes taking all three tests.
I've looked at a 16 day 8 hour a day camp in India that also includes taking all three tests.
I've looked at a 5 day 8 hour a day class that focuses on ASP.Net and would prepare me for one of the cert tests.

I'm pretty sure that I have enough background to get certified with the boot camp option. And it would be nice to get the cert in such a short time period.
But I also wonder if taking a 5 day ASP.Net class might actually teach me more in the long run than a boot camp.

This would be company paid, so cost may become an issue if our budget is tight.

Bootcamp pros:
Get cert in short time period without months of self-study.
Bootcamp cons:
Cramming results in quick loss of the information once the class is over.
Higher cost.

Traditional class pros:
More in depth learning of specific subject matter
Lower cost.
Traditional class cons:
I would still have to spend quite a bit of time studying for the two subjects not included in the class if I want my certification.

 

[StageLeft]

I'd personally do the one test option because I generally don't like instructor-driven study, since it doesn't go at the appropriate pace for me or cover what I want. That way you can do the other two tests later.

 

[DT4K]

Well, I don't think I'd have to worry about the pace being too slow if I did a boot camp.
For my own skills, I think the single traditional class would be better.
I just keep wondering if I should take advantage of this opportunity to quickly get a certification.

 

[Ameesh]

certs for a guy who already has a cs degree are worthless imo. infact whenever i have been at meetings where we are sifting through resumes, developers who have certs that they got after their degree get their resume put in the garbage.

going for the training will be good especially if the company is paying for it but i wouldnt put your certs on your resume.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Ameesh
certs for a guy who already has a cs degree are worthless imo. infact whenever i have been at meetings where we are sifting through resumes, developers who have certs that they got after their degree get their resume put in the garbage.

going for the training will be good especially if the company is paying for it but i wouldnt put your certs on your resume.

Could you tell me why?

I know the value is open to debate, but I've never heard anyone say it is a negative to have certs on your resume. (well, I guess I have now)
And I've seen quite a few job postings that require or at least prefer that candidates be certified.

Most people seem to think that although they aren't a substitute for experience, when the decision is between two similar candidates, the one with the cert will be more likely to get picked.

 

[DT4K]

By the way,
anyone have recommendations on the best training companies?

 

[PlatinumGold]

boot camps are fun tho. intensive and a little grueling but pretty fun.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
boot camps are fun tho. intensive and a little grueling but pretty fun.

So you've done them?
Could you answer a couple questions?
What did you take?
Who did you take it from?
How much do you think you learned?

What I really want is input from someone who has personal experience so any feedback you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks

 

[DT4K]

Come on guys, I know there are a bunch of you out there that have taken these kind of classes.
Help me out here.

 

[PlatinumGold]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: PlatinumGold
boot camps are fun tho. intensive and a little grueling but pretty fun.

So you've done them?
Could you answer a couple questions?
What did you take?
Who did you take it from?
How much do you think you learned?

What I really want is input from someone who has personal experience so any feedback you can give me would be appreciated.

Thanks

ya, i took an MCSE one from INTENSE school. they used to run sessions in North New Jersey, don't think they do anymore.

it was fun. ya, i learned a little bit, but mostly it was good practice for the exam, i only passed 5 of the 7 exams during the sessions, but that's not too bad i guess.

 

[DT4K]

I think I looked up Intense, but they didn't offer the MCAD camp.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Ameesh
certs for a guy who already has a cs degree are worthless imo. infact whenever i have been at meetings where we are sifting through resumes, developers who have certs that they got after their degree get their resume put in the garbage.

going for the training will be good especially if the company is paying for it but i wouldnt put your certs on your resume.

Could you tell me why?

I know the value is open to debate, but I've never heard anyone say it is a negative to have certs on your resume. (well, I guess I have now)
And I've seen quite a few job postings that require or at least prefer that candidates be certified.

Most people seem to think that although they aren't a substitute for experience, when the decision is between two similar candidates, the one with the cert will be more likely to get picked.

Well the common feeling is that when you put something on your resume you are trying to emphisize it.

when you put certs on top of your existing degree you are devaluing your degree saying that you needed something in addition to your full on degree to be able to acomplish your job.

i'll give you a hyperbolic example: you are rhodes scholar and you put that you had got the award for perfect attendence at your middle school.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Ameesh
certs for a guy who already has a cs degree are worthless imo. infact whenever i have been at meetings where we are sifting through resumes, developers who have certs that they got after their degree get their resume put in the garbage.

going for the training will be good especially if the company is paying for it but i wouldnt put your certs on your resume.

Could you tell me why?

I know the value is open to debate, but I've never heard anyone say it is a negative to have certs on your resume. (well, I guess I have now)
And I've seen quite a few job postings that require or at least prefer that candidates be certified.

Most people seem to think that although they aren't a substitute for experience, when the decision is between two similar candidates, the one with the cert will be more likely to get picked.

Well the common feeling is that when you put something on your resume you are trying to emphisize it.

when you put certs on top of your existing degree you are devaluing your degree saying that you needed something in addition to your full on degree to be able to acomplish your job.

i'll give you a hyperbolic example: you are rhodes scholar and you put that you had got the award for perfect attendence at your middle school.

I would agree that certs are not nearly as important as a degree.
But I don't think your example really makes sense.
You are talking about emphasizing something many years in the past over more recent accomplishments.
Getting certifications to stay up to date on technology is very different.

Here is how I see it:
A college degree in CS indicates that you have spent 4 years(at least) getting a broad education and gaining a good foundation in the basic fundamentals of software development, databases, networking, etc.
Certifications indicate that you know a very specific set of languages/technologies.

Unfortunately, it seems that many hiring managers value this specific knowledge more than the broad foundation of a degree. Or at least they value it just as much.

So I see certs as something that builds on top of the degree and demonstrates that you have kept yourself up to date with the newest technologies and languages. I don't think it has anything to do with needing the cert to accomplish your job. It just has to do with keeping up to date and showing that you are willing to improve your skills by continually learning.

 

[DT4K]

anyone else with an opinion ?

 

[Geekbabe]

I don't like boot camps.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Geekbabe
I don't like boot camps.

care to elaborate?

 

[TallBill]

lol, i've been to a real army boot camp for 17 weeks.. and i bet its a HELL of a lot tougher then your silly little one that you want. just do it and get it over with.

 

[Ameesh]

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Ameesh

Originally posted by: Shanti

Originally posted by: Ameesh
certs for a guy who already has a cs degree are worthless imo. infact whenever i have been at meetings where we are sifting through resumes, developers who have certs that they got after their degree get their resume put in the garbage.

going for the training will be good especially if the company is paying for it but i wouldnt put your certs on your resume.

Could you tell me why?

I know the value is open to debate, but I've never heard anyone say it is a negative to have certs on your resume. (well, I guess I have now)
And I've seen quite a few job postings that require or at least prefer that candidates be certified.

Most people seem to think that although they aren't a substitute for experience, when the decision is between two similar candidates, the one with the cert will be more likely to get picked.

Well the common feeling is that when you put something on your resume you are trying to emphisize it.

when you put certs on top of your existing degree you are devaluing your degree saying that you needed something in addition to your full on degree to be able to acomplish your job.

i'll give you a hyperbolic example: you are rhodes scholar and you put that you had got the award for perfect attendence at your middle school.

I would agree that certs are not nearly as important as a degree.
But I don't think your example really makes sense.
You are talking about emphasizing something many years in the past over more recent accomplishments.
Getting certifications to stay up to date on technology is very different.

Here is how I see it:
A college degree in CS indicates that you have spent 4 years(at least) getting a broad education and gaining a good foundation in the basic fundamentals of software development, databases, networking, etc.
Certifications indicate that you know a very specific set of languages/technologies.

Unfortunately, it seems that many hiring managers value this specific knowledge more than the broad foundation of a degree. Or at least they value it just as much.

So I see certs as something that builds on top of the degree and demonstrates that you have kept yourself up to date with the newest technologies and languages. I don't think it has anything to do with needing the cert to accomplish your job. It just has to do with keeping up to date and showing that you are willing to improve your skills by continually learning.

well regardless if you agree with me or not, if you submitted your resume at MS or Amazon or most other large software companies, it would most likely get tossed.

I'm not saying dont do the training, im saying leave it off your resume and keep focused on actual projects that use the technologies.

 

[DT4K]

Originally posted by: Ameesh

well regardless if you agree with me or not, if you submitted your resume at MS or Amazon or most other large software companies, it would most likely get tossed.

I'm not saying dont do the training, im saying leave it off your resume and keep focused on actual projects that use the technologies.

If true, that's rather disturbing considering how hard MS is trying to sell the importance of getting their certs.

Originally posted by: TallBill
lol, i've been to a real army boot camp for 17 weeks.. and i bet its a HELL of a lot tougher then your silly little one that you want. just do it and get it over with.

Yeah, I'm sure you are right. If I decide not to do a bootcamp, it won't be because it's too hard. It will be because I decide I can learn more doing a regular class.

 

[StageLeft]

My experience with certs has been very positive. I know that I got my current job because I was an MCSD. The job offer I received most recently was, in great part, because I had my MCSD and a .net certification at the time. They are a great supplement to experience and other education, and I fail to believe that a resume will be "thrown away", simply because the John has the same resume as Bob, except John also has a few certs on there.

Actually I shouldn't say that last offer was ni great part because of the MCSD, but it definitely contributed to their interest in me. They said as much, and they are a very successful and profitable (though fairly small at around 50 people) software shop.

when you put certs on top of your existing degree you are devaluing your degree saying that you needed something in addition to your full on degree to be able to acomplish your job.

i'll give you a hyperbolic example: you are rhodes scholar and you put that you had got the award for perfect attendence at your middle school.

Obviously one would want to emphasize their formal education more than the certs, and their experience more than the certs. For me personally I think I had Skoorb, BSc, MCSD. Then the resume itself had my education and experience, and at the bottom below technical skills I had a cert section.

 

[Descartes]

The value of certifications has long been a debated subject, and that will continue for as long as they exist. There is no definite correlation between certs and opportunities anymore than there is degree and opportunities (although probably a stronger correlation with the latter). While working as a cubicle monkey my certifications were about as valuable as an A+ to a plumber, but I've been consulting for well over three years now; I have a much better chance at winning the bids on projects due to certifications, awards, etc. My nescient customers haven't the understanding required of our industry to know how to qualify ability, so if they see ANY certification they see value. As I've said in the past, I once lost the bid on a large project to someone who barely knew Access simply because he was MOUS certified. That was a particularly profound moment of ignorance on my client's part, but that exists. I have a regional reputation that generally transcends any list of acronyms postfixed to my name, but when bidding on projects abroad they largely judge me in a superficial manner; unfortunately, this means the guy with the most certs will generally win.

If working as a consultant isn't your ambition, then you can ignore everything I said above and you can heed Ameesh's advice:

I'm not saying dont do the training, im saying leave it off your resume and keep focused on actual projects that use the technologies.

I don't have a very high opinion of most training courses, because for 1/20th of the price I could buy all the books and learn everything in half the time; however, some people learn more effectively through such courses. DevelopMentor and Wintellect have solid reputations and excellent trainers, but I have no accurate qualitative measurement of the many number of training companies.

Hope I was of some help at least.

[edit]Owned by auto parse URLs. I want to type them myself![/edit]

 

[Spamela]

the problem with/value of short term technical training is that it can
give you an overview and enough info to pass a test,
but real mastery only comes with experience.

certifications would be ignored where i work.
their mere presence on one's resume wouldn't be a detriment;
they just wouldn't add any value without education and/or
experience. the feeling is that certifications are for technicians,
not people with CS degrees.

i've taken outside training, but don't have any
certifications (i do have a graduate degree in CS).

i typically use the training money where i work to attend conferences
(JavaOne the past few years), but if a new project requires
some technology that i feel i can understand more quickly
using outside training, then i'll request it, but never with the
idea of passing a cert test.

 

[DT4K]

Thanks for the input guys.
I do agree that I could learn anything I need to from books.
The problem is that finding time to actually do the work on my own is difficult.
Studying at work is near impossible because it seems there is always someone wanting to talk to me about something.
Studying at home is possible but would not make the wife and kids very happy.

So for me, the real value of traveling somewhere to do a week-long class lies in being free from distractions. Being able to focus 100% on learning the material while also getting a nice break from everyday job stresses and family demands makes it worthwile to me.

In 2002, I did find the VB.Net programming class to be valuable. It gave me a pretty broad understanding of what .Net was all about.
In 2003, I went to the VS Connections conference and that was also very worthwile. Of course, being in New Orleans, there was quite a bit of fun involved as well. Apparently MS thinks if they throw a fancy party and provide as much good liquor as you want for free, they can convince you to buy their products.

Thanks again. It's been helpful to get a lot of people's opinions on this.