What modern Liberalism has come to...

[Duwelon]

I want to point out a few observations based on reading these forums for awhile as well as the news. If you consider yourself a liberal and don't agree at all with some of these, please post why if you care to forgoe the standard intellectually dishonest ad-h attacks and diversions like (well you believe...).

1) The liberal left on here finds anything bad for America as news. A bunch of marines die and they fall over themselves to post about it. They are addicted to bad news. Any enemy of the USA that comes out and speaks against us, the Liberal left give them all the audience they could ever want. This isn't all bad in itself, but it does speak to their world view. To the liberal left, the USA can do little good and anything good about the USA is not worth talking about to anyone or anytime.

2) The liberal left wants to give up their freedom of healthcare choices. Instead of having the freedom to go out, get a job, get whatever healthcare they want, the liberal left wants to give the responsibility (read: POWER) to the federal government. They'll happily hand over rights and responsibilty in exchange for tax funded healthcare. In a perfect world, I agree, but people are lazy and a lot more freedoms will be lost to control the general health of the average american to support the system.

3) The liberal left wants to give up the freedom of education. School vouchers? No way! The liberal left wants all children indoctrinated in failing liberal schools that they have control over. Nevermind the results of private schools or home schooling, they don't indoctrinate the kids into their atheistic and panthesistic point of view enough so they are completely willing to forgoe this freedom.

4) The liberal left doesn't want the rule of law. They want illegal immigration in droves because the people that immigrate are poor and easily controlled with federal handouts. They want the war of drugs destroyed because it attempts to bring minorities and slums out of the doldrums by prosecuting crimes that destroy lives and make people dependant on a substance instead of independent from even the state.

5) The liberal left wants to take pseudo science of climate change, call it settled law and enact legislature that will control every aspect of our lives from light bulbs to cars to homes.

It's going to be a dark day in America if Obama gets elected and signs into law every piece of trash legislature that comes to his desk that advances the liberal agenda.

 

[OrByte]

thanks for your .02.

 

[Vic]

One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

There are 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitterly divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

 

[Duwelon]

The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Vic
One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

There's 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitter divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

OH you forgot the part about daring anyone to reply to your well thought out and intelligent points of view.

OH and to not bother with the ad-h remarks and the silly diversions!

 

[bamacre]

Oh boy, another "my party is not as bad as your's" thread.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

Your OP was given the response it deserved. You need to keep in mind that you did not give an intelligent, logical argument in the first place.

And... you got nothing. Thanks for playing.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

The only people that are truly wastes of time in this country are the extremists on either side along with those who always favor one side over the other for most issues instead of taking an approach to each and every issue from as clean of a slate as possible. This country's problems tend to change faster than the parties that are either for or against their common solutions. Think about that for a while.

 

[OrByte]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

what exactly are you "confronting?"

what exactly is your "logical argument?"

all I see is your point of view.

thanks.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

Provide an intelligent starting point and you will get an intelligent path to walk down.

When you present gutter material as square one, you really shouldn't be too shocked that the "conversation" walks down that path.

So, either you are a complete moron (which I don't think you are), you are intentionally trying to stir the pot (my choice) or you are woefully ignorant to just how party blind you are if you think that your OP is in any way deserving of an intelligent discussion.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: OrByte
thanks for your .02.

Not worth the price. I want my five seconds back. :thumbsdown:

 

[GTKeeper]

Duwelon,

Let me try to respond to your points here....

1) I think this actually applies to all parties and all news outlets in the US. Bad News is news and it generates ratings so it gets reported... agreed?

I don't remember the last time CNN, Fox, CBS, NBC reported on something that is an uplifting story.... its always the same crap.

2) I think nationalizing health care is an extreme step. I think the correct step for the government to take at this moment is to leverage its massive spending power to get drug companies / medical equipment companies to lower overall prices the government pays. Right now the GOP has shot down the last two major attempts to do that. What do you suggest?
I don't know about you, but on average health care premiums have doubled in the last 6 years or so.... are we going to let insurance companies / medical companies keep charging what they want?

3) I don't think sticking all smart kids / same income level kids in one place is a good thing. You need a good mix of students so you actually learn about other people and how they are.

4) The first thing the U.S needs to do is start prosecupting ALL corporations that hire illegals. Why do illegals come here? Because they can get a JOB and someone will PAY them. Kill the problem at its source, institute major financial penalties for hiring illegals and the problem will correct itself. (see what Oklahoma did) Whats your solution here?

5) If you think people have 0 impact on climate change, then seriously you need to re-evaluate your thinking. I think climate change can be a good thing for American prosperity, in that it can really drive some serious innovation that a) will make places nicer to live, b) make us a TON of money when we sell it to other countries
Whats your solution here?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Duwelon
The liberal left, when confronted, cannot win any argument in an intellectual, logical way. They will resort to flippant humor that assumes everything they don't like is a joke without actually pointing out anything funny or making any arguments with real substance.

Unfortunately Vic's post wasn't a joke. You also notice that he didn't deny what you posted, he just made an observation of the Conservative Right like you did of the Liberal Left.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: Vic
One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

That's a lie. I hear republicans addressing criticism of themselves all the time. Nuff said.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

The conservative rights wants to USE our freedoms to provide security. What freedoms have you given up again?

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

That's a lie. The conservative right wants the freedom for all points of view to be taught. The liberal left wants only one taught, despite it's scientific and philosphical short comings.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

That's a lie. The republicans are the only party that will stay hard on criminals and not give child rapists a few months in prison because the judges feel sorry for them instead of the children.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

That's a lie. conservatives are as much against polution as anyone. The conservative right recognizes that the so called scientific consensus on climate change isn't as much of a consensus as those peddling it and making $$$ off of it want you to believe.

There are 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitterly divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

About the divide, i'll agree with you. But you are partly lying about who is causing it. You can say all you want it's the republican's fault for not going along with the liberal agenda but who is the party of disbanding our founding principals that so many Americans have come to love and die for?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Vic
One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

That's a lie. I hear republicans addressing criticism of themselves all the time. Nuff said.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

The conservative rights wants to USE our freedoms to provide security. What freedoms have you given up again?

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

That's a lie. The conservative right wants the freedom for all points of view to be taught. The liberal left wants only one taught, despite it's scientific and philosphical short comings.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

That's a lie. The republicans are the only party that will stay hard on criminals and not give child rapists a few months in prison because the judges feel sorry for them instead of the children.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

That's a lie. conservatives are as much against polution as anyone. The conservative right recognizes that the so called scientific consensus on climate change isn't as much of a consensus as those peddling it and making $$$ off of it want you to believe.

There are 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitterly divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

About the divide, i'll agree with you. But you are partly lying about who is causing it. You can say all you want it's the republican's fault for not going along with the liberal agenda but who is the party of disbanding our founding principals that so many Americans have come to love and die for?

I'm going to give you some friendly advice and tell you to stop now. You are going to get shredded. You started off with a terrible, one sided, partisan argument... it's not defensible.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: eskimospy
I'm going to give you some friendly advice and tell you to stop now. You are going to get shredded. You started off with a terrible, one sided, partisan argument... it's not defensible.

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me. If you got an argument with some truth to provide, go ahead and state it. Maybe you'll change my mind, but you won't change my mind with appeals to go along to get along.

 

[Xavier434]

Duwelon, you do realize that you are comparing the most extreme of liberals to that of conservatives that definitely lean to the right but are by no means to the extreme side of that right. That alone pretty much makes a lot of your arguments pretty useless because obviously it is going to seem that the Left side is the "bad" side.

The fact remains that it is the extremists of either side which are the problem. Going 100% right or 100% left is a really bad idea. Each individual issue requires a unique mixture of both sides which will need to be revised often as time goes on and as the problem evolves if we are to maximize our efforts and productivity. You really ought to try and ditch the biased thinking a little and consider the big picture more.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Duwelon, you do realize that you are comparing the most extreme of liberals to that of conservatives that definitely lean to the right but are by no means to the extreme side of that right. That alone pretty much makes a lot of your arguments pretty useless because obviously it is going to seem that the Left side is the "bad" side.

The fact remains that it is the extremists of either side which are the problem. Going 100% right or 100% left is a really bad idea. Each individual issue requires a unique mixture of both sides which will need to be revised often as time goes on and as the problem evolves if we are to maximize our efforts and productivity. You really ought to try and ditch the biased thinking a little and consider the big picture more.

You make a very good point and I agree with you about the extremists. Liberalism isn't all bad but it is the only philosophy alive in america today that seek's to destroy what we have and replace it with wards of the state.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Vic
One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

That's a lie. I hear republicans addressing criticism of themselves all the time. Nuff said.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

The conservative rights wants to USE our freedoms to provide security. What freedoms have you given up again?

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

That's a lie. The conservative right wants the freedom for all points of view to be taught. The liberal left wants only one taught, despite it's scientific and philosphical short comings.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

That's a lie. The republicans are the only party that will stay hard on criminals and not give child rapists a few months in prison because the judges feel sorry for them instead of the children.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

That's a lie. conservatives are as much against polution as anyone. The conservative right recognizes that the so called scientific consensus on climate change isn't as much of a consensus as those peddling it and making $$$ off of it want you to believe.

There are 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitterly divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

About the divide, i'll agree with you. But you are partly lying about who is causing it. You can say all you want it's the republican's fault for not going along with the liberal agenda but who is the party of disbanding our founding principals that so many Americans have come to love and die for?

My point was to counter the lies and FUD in your OP with the equivalent lies from the other side, in order to demonstrate the ridiculous blind extremism of your OP. And you've come back with even more lies and extremist attitude. You're not helping yourself here, except to make sure that we're all well aware that you're a hack and a nutcase.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Duwelon, you do realize that you are comparing the most extreme of liberals to that of conservatives that definitely lean to the right but are by no means to the extreme side of that right. That alone pretty much makes a lot of your arguments pretty useless because obviously it is going to seem that the Left side is the "bad" side.

The fact remains that it is the extremists of either side which are the problem. Going 100% right or 100% left is a really bad idea. Each individual issue requires a unique mixture of both sides which will need to be revised often as time goes on and as the problem evolves if we are to maximize our efforts and productivity. You really ought to try and ditch the biased thinking a little and consider the big picture more.

You make a very good point and I agree with you about the extremists. Liberalism isn't all bad but it is the only philosophy alive in america today that seek's to destroy what we have and replace it with wards of the state.

Eh...I don't know about that. The liberals that I know which are not bat shit crazy extremists tend to only want to change what isn't currently working very well. Now, whether or not their common solutions will actually makes things better is clearly up for debate. Most of that debate will consist of a lot of speculation from both sides because there isn't that much else to go on. That plus a lot of it will also depend on who you are ok with getting the short end of the stick. Make no mistake. Both conservatives and liberals alike all come up with a lot of solutions where the major difference boils down to who is going to get shit on more and that is very often defined by class.

 

[Duwelon]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Vic
One-sided troll thread.

1) The conservative right ignores every criticism in favor of the status quo.

That's a lie. I hear republicans addressing criticism of themselves all the time. Nuff said.

2) The conservative right wants to give up freedom in favor of security. They'll happily hand over all their rights and responsibility (read: POWER) to be protected from the things that go bump in the night. And they'll pay trillions of dollars in tax dollars for the favor.

The conservative rights wants to USE our freedoms to provide security. What freedoms have you given up again?

3) The conservative right wants to eliminate separation of church and state and force the indoctrination of their religious views in the public schools, particularly their creation myths in the science classrooms.

That's a lie. The conservative right wants the freedom for all points of view to be taught. The liberal left wants only one taught, despite it's scientific and philosphical short comings.

4) The conservative right doesn't want the rule of law or respect the Constitution, but instead favor elimination of the 4th and 5th amendments in the name of easy 'law and order' criminal prosecutions.

That's a lie. The republicans are the only party that will stay hard on criminals and not give child rapists a few months in prison because the judges feel sorry for them instead of the children.

5) The conservative rights wants to ignore expert scientific consensus in favor of excessive pollution and wasteful consumption.

That's a lie. conservatives are as much against polution as anyone. The conservative right recognizes that the so called scientific consensus on climate change isn't as much of a consensus as those peddling it and making $$$ off of it want you to believe.

There are 2 sides to every issue. The darkest day in America is when we forget that. Because the fact is that all of these issues are relatively meaningless compared to the issue that we are a nation bitterly divided, and hacks like the OP serve no other agenda but to further that divide, and thus weaken our nation.

About the divide, i'll agree with you. But you are partly lying about who is causing it. You can say all you want it's the republican's fault for not going along with the liberal agenda but who is the party of disbanding our founding principals that so many Americans have come to love and die for?

My point was to counter the lies and FUD in your OP with the equivalent lies from the other side, in order to demonstrate the ridiculous blind extremism of your OP. And you've come back with even more lies and extremist attitude. You're not helping yourself here, except to make sure that we're all well aware that you're a hack and a nutcase.

Wait, so now that I called you on all your BS, you're saying it was your plan all along to lie about conservatives? I refuted your lies directly and apparently you don't even dare to tread those waters. Fine, good day.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Duwelon, you do realize that you are comparing the most extreme of liberals to that of conservatives that definitely lean to the right but are by no means to the extreme side of that right. That alone pretty much makes a lot of your arguments pretty useless because obviously it is going to seem that the Left side is the "bad" side.

The fact remains that it is the extremists of either side which are the problem. Going 100% right or 100% left is a really bad idea. Each individual issue requires a unique mixture of both sides which will need to be revised often as time goes on and as the problem evolves if we are to maximize our efforts and productivity. You really ought to try and ditch the biased thinking a little and consider the big picture more.

You make a very good point and I agree with you about the extremists. Liberalism isn't all bad but it is the only philosophy alive in america today that seek's to destroy what we have and replace it with wards of the state.

And how, I wonder, do you intend to rid America of this terrible threat that is liberalism?

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: eskimospy
I'm going to give you some friendly advice and tell you to stop now. You are going to get shredded. You started off with a terrible, one sided, partisan argument... it's not defensible.

I don't care what you or anyone else thinks about me. If you got an argument with some truth to provide, go ahead and state it. Maybe you'll change my mind, but you won't change my mind with appeals to go along to get along.

1.) Ridiculous hyperbole that is completely unsupported.
2.) A possibly defensible argument.
3.) Ridiculous hyperbole that is completely unsupported.
4.) Ridiculous hyperbole that is completely unsupported.
5.) Ridiculous hyperbole that is completely unsupported.

If you want good responses, you need to make a good argument. If someone tells me that lesbian Nazi eskimos are responsible for all of our problems, I don't see how I would even begin to logically refute their argument.

You said things like "the liberal left doesn't want the rule of law". How do you even respond to something like that? It's so absurd that to be honest I wouldn't even know how to.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Wait, so now that I called you on all your BS, you're saying it was your plan all along to lie about conservatives? I refuted your lies directly and apparently you don't even dare to tread those waters. Fine, good day.

Things like this are why I warned you to quit while you were ahead (okay, less behind) earlier.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Duwelon

Originally posted by: Xavier434
Duwelon, you do realize that you are comparing the most extreme of liberals to that of conservatives that definitely lean to the right but are by no means to the extreme side of that right. That alone pretty much makes a lot of your arguments pretty useless because obviously it is going to seem that the Left side is the "bad" side.

The fact remains that it is the extremists of either side which are the problem. Going 100% right or 100% left is a really bad idea. Each individual issue requires a unique mixture of both sides which will need to be revised often as time goes on and as the problem evolves if we are to maximize our efforts and productivity. You really ought to try and ditch the biased thinking a little and consider the big picture more.

You make a very good point and I agree with you about the extremists. Liberalism isn't all bad but it is the only philosophy alive in america today that seek's to destroy what we have and replace it with wards of the state.

Oh FFS....why couldn't you just take eskimospy's advice and let it die.

How is denying citizens in this country the right to make a phone call, search the web or send an email without being spied upon NOT a nanny state proposition? You do know what party the president that did all of those belongs to, right?

How is granting retroactive immunity to the telecos NOT usurping our constitutional tri-lateral government system by not allowing the justice branch to determine the legality of their actions?

How is trying to declare evolution to ID and rejecting all logical arguments to the fact that one is observable hard science that should be taught to the other's BELIEF SYSTEM of what happened and forcing that onto children NOT nanny state?

How is forcing morality whether it be via censorship or guilt not nanny state?

How is anything that you posted worth responding to in the first place and why did I just waste my time? Face it, you are a hack. You don't deserve a legitimate response when you present garbage as the topic and yet others (including myself just now) are still trying to show you how truly pathetic your viewpoint is and you refuse to see it.

Maybe I should change my opinion of you from my previous post. I no longer think that you are just trying to stir the pot. You are either a complete moron or so freaking ignorant to your ignorance that you believe what you post. Either way, it's a sad, sad state to be in.