What makes MMOGs so heavily Fantasy RPG based?

[mwmorph]

I was just thinking about this the other day, the vast, vast majority of MMOGs are Fantasy RPGs which makes for a crowded, monotonous genre.

Whatever happened to say a Sci-Fi RPG or maybe a MMORTS or something? I mean if someone could take WWII Online and tone it down so it's not as hardcore (seriously, modeling bullet penetration as a function of angle of entry along, location and material values might be overkill for someone that just wants to play,Planetside doesn't count because the gameplay is just abysmal) or make a decent SciFi rpg (SW Galaxies doesn't count because it's absolute crap) or maybe something modern based.

I mean there's only so many fanatasy lovers out there, it seems like the genre is already way past saturation (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.)

Is it too much to ask for a new AAA MMOG title that actually tries to do something new and fun?

Entropa Online: Not a fan of basically what I see as buying gold to play a "free" MMORPG
Final Fantasy XI: I'm never touching a Final Fantasy product again after playing FF9 and FF 12. Those games game were just too boring/weird/ridiculous for me.
Eve Online: The definition of grind and farmfest.

 

[PingSpike]

Its gotta be the plate mail bikinis. They just don't make sense in a sci-fi setting.

 

[rivan]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I was just thinking about this the other day, the vast, vast majority of MMOGs are Fantasy RPGs which makes for a crowded, monotonous genre.

Whatever happened to say a Sci-Fi RPG or maybe a MMORTS or something? I mean if someone could take WWII Online and tone it down so it's not as hardcore (seriously, modeling bullet penetration as a function of angle of entry along, location and material values might be overkill for someone that just wants to play,Planetside doesn't count because the gameplay is just abysmal) or make a decent SciFi rpg (SW Galaxies doesn't count because it's absolute crap) or maybe something modern based.

I mean there's only so many fanatasy lovers out there, it seems like the genre is already way past saturation (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.)

Is it too much to ask for a new AAA MMOG title that actually tries to do something new and fun?

Entropa Online: Not a fan of basically what I see as buying gold to play a "free" MMORPG
Final Fantasy XI: I'm never touching a Final Fantasy product again after playing FF9 and FF 12. Those games game were just too boring/weird/ridiculous for me.
Eve Online: The definition of grind and farmfest.

Stargate. Anarchy Online. Tabula Rasa. SW: Old Republic.

You seem to want something pretty specific. By what I'm reading in your post, you imply the fantasy MMOs (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.) are all exceptional - but I think you might just rip on those the same way you do SWG & Planetside, if you played them.

 

[Malladine]

money

 

[Xavier434]

Well, they originated from pen and paper games which are primarily fantasy.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I was just thinking about this the other day, the vast, vast majority of MMOGs are Fantasy RPGs which makes for a crowded, monotonous genre.

Whatever happened to say a Sci-Fi RPG or maybe a MMORTS or something? I mean if someone could take WWII Online and tone it down so it's not as hardcore (seriously, modeling bullet penetration as a function of angle of entry along, location and material values might be overkill for someone that just wants to play,Planetside doesn't count because the gameplay is just abysmal) or make a decent SciFi rpg (SW Galaxies doesn't count because it's absolute crap) or maybe something modern based.

I mean there's only so many fanatasy lovers out there, it seems like the genre is already way past saturation (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.)

Is it too much to ask for a new AAA MMOG title that actually tries to do something new and fun?

Entropa Online: Not a fan of basically what I see as buying gold to play a "free" MMORPG
Final Fantasy XI: I'm never touching a Final Fantasy product again after playing FF9 and FF 12. Those games game were just too boring/weird/ridiculous for me.
Eve Online: The definition of grind and farmfest.

As you pointed out there are a number of non-fantasy MMO's out there, you just don?t like them. They have not drawn the type of crowds that WoW and its ilk draw so they don't get much work and it is the work once the game gets the community that makes it great. WoW was terrible it's first few months. Conan is absolutely unplayable after the first 10 levels, and since it?s community died it will soon die. Warhammer is better, but still repetitive and has limited end game sustainability, but if the community hangs in there they will fix that.

MMO?s are expensive to start, very few companies are willing to take too big of a risk on a genre that has proven to fail like sci-fi MMOs has.
As for MMORTS, I?ve never seen a concept that would work. How exactly do you build a persistent world around a RTS?

 

[Genx87]

I always thought a game like the Original Day of defeat with a massive map like World War II Online could be interesting. Litter the map with flags that need to be capped and dynamically adjust the spawn points and reinforcement points based on flag ownership. One could even simulate encirclements by reducing the amount of available reinforcement points in the encircled area. Add in limited armor and the ability to call in artillery.

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: rivan

Originally posted by: mwmorph
I was just thinking about this the other day, the vast, vast majority of MMOGs are Fantasy RPGs which makes for a crowded, monotonous genre.

Whatever happened to say a Sci-Fi RPG or maybe a MMORTS or something? I mean if someone could take WWII Online and tone it down so it's not as hardcore (seriously, modeling bullet penetration as a function of angle of entry along, location and material values might be overkill for someone that just wants to play,Planetside doesn't count because the gameplay is just abysmal) or make a decent SciFi rpg (SW Galaxies doesn't count because it's absolute crap) or maybe something modern based.

I mean there's only so many fanatasy lovers out there, it seems like the genre is already way past saturation (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.)

Is it too much to ask for a new AAA MMOG title that actually tries to do something new and fun?

Entropa Online: Not a fan of basically what I see as buying gold to play a "free" MMORPG
Final Fantasy XI: I'm never touching a Final Fantasy product again after playing FF9 and FF 12. Those games game were just too boring/weird/ridiculous for me.
Eve Online: The definition of grind and farmfest.

Stargate. Anarchy Online. Tabula Rasa. SW: Old Republic.

You seem to want something pretty specific. By what I'm reading in your post, you imply the fantasy MMOs (WoW, Guild Wars, EverquestII, Lord Of Rings Online, Warhammer Online, RuneScape, etc.) are all exceptional - but I think you might just rip on those the same way you do SWG & Planetside, if you played them.

By no way do I mean any of those are exceptional. WoW is overrated imo, GW is fun because of the lack of grinding but boring after a while, those were just the major examples to come to mind when you think MMO nowadays.

GW is actually the only MMOG I play on a regular basis. It doesn't punish you for being a noob when you start and allows reallocating skill points and character classes anytime. Also it kills the grindfest unless you really want to and it actually has a cohesive storyline told through cutscenes, something I'm not sure any other MMORPG has.

Tabula Rasa is dead. Interesting concept, I never got around to trying it but I wish I had.I did play anarchy Online but never got into it for some reason. I'm not sure why, maybe because I'm so anti grind and repetition, that and there were so many places to put skill points I didn't know where to start with it.

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: mwmorph
snip

As you pointed out there are a number of non-fantasy MMO's out there, you just don?t like them. They have not drawn the type of crowds that WoW and its ilk draw so they don't get much work and it is the work once the game gets the community that makes it great. WoW was terrible it's first few months. Conan is absolutely unplayable after the first 10 levels, and since it?s community died it will soon die. Warhammer is better, but still repetitive and has limited end game sustainability, but if the community hangs in there they will fix that.

MMO?s are expensive to start, very few companies are willing to take too big of a risk on a genre that has proven to fail like sci-fi MMOs has.
As for MMORTS, I?ve never seen a concept that would work. How exactly do you build a persistent world around a RTS?

There have been persistent RTS MMOGs but none that I know off that exist anymore. I know Shattered Galaxy(IIRC thats what its called) was a sci fi RTS that players fought battles over and changed the persistent boundaries of the maps and thus ownership of certain areas.

As for the MMOGs I listed,
Entropa is not a AAA title nor is it even really... fun.
Eve is more hardcore than most people would ever get into. It's liek a virtual life, not a game.
FFXI imo is a joke, but then I have a deep hatred of just about all FF games. Utterly unlikable, annoying beyond belief characters. Men that bitch, whine and dress like 12 year old girls. Women that are utterly one dimensional, generic japanese characters that bitch, whine and dress like 12 year old boys. Convoluted story with more cutscenes involving these unlikable characters than actual gameplay, etc(I'm looking at you FFX and FFX-2). Japanese RPGs and I just don't get along well. The only Japanese RPGs i've ever enjoyed were Chrono Trigger and Earthbound.


I'd just like to see 1 different AAA effort to make a decent MMORPG, something new and fun that doesn't involve dungeons, dragons and ogres. Something that's ballsy, creative and actually supported by the publisher aas far as marketing goes so it's actually got a chance at making it.

Tabula Rasa looked liek it had some great ideas. The combat system looked especially interesting, what I think killed it was marketing. I mean when Warhammer Online came out, advertising was everywhere. I'm pretty sure those people would have beamed ads directly into my brain if they could have. Tabula Rasa OTOH seemed to slip under the radar.

Here's hoping that Biowares KOTR MMORPG does well.

Originally posted by: Xavier434
It sounds to me that the real issue here is that MMOs are not for you which is fine. What you want is a particular kind of RPG. Not an MMO. There are similarities, but major differences at the same time. Don't group them together.

You may be right, I think I'm getting jaded and old. I can do grinding or anything repitive anymore. I've got been there done that syndrome, the RPGs I enjoy usually have wither very fast palced gameplay (a la Titan Quest/Diablo 2) or extremely strong characterization and story with believable characters (a la Mass Effect/Kotor).

 

[Xavier434]

It sounds to me that the real issue here is that MMOs are not for you which is fine. What you want is a particular kind of RPG. Not an MMO. There are similarities, but major differences at the same time. Don't group them together.

 

[Pelu]

two sci fi games... tabula rasa and auto assault... both of them closed because their low population....

 

[TidusZ]

In all fairness, Earthbound had its share of dungeons. It even had a dungeon man. 70% of people go right, the other 30% find a warm bench and phone. Btw if anyone finds the recipe for magic cake lmk cus I've been to the hospital twice trying to figure it out and I haven't gotten any closer.

Signed, your best pal
Pokey

 

[mwmorph]

Originally posted by: TidusZ
In all fairness, Earthbound had its share of dungeons. It even had a dungeon man. 70% of people go right, the other 30% find a warm bench and phone. Btw if anyone finds the recipe for magic cake lmk cus I've been to the hospital twice trying to figure it out and I haven't gotten any closer.

Signed, your best pal
Pokey

Oh I have nothing against dungeons, at some point a RPG is probably going to have dungeons. What I don't like is the generic fantasy setting. Is nobody else tired of paladins, rangers, wizards, bows, swords, "sexy elves" and female plate armor that seems protect in inverse compared to area covered? Tolkien must be rolling in his grave considering how cliche his ideas have become.

It's no longer just beating a dead horse, it's like taking dead horse and using it as a blunt bludgeoning object to beat another dead horse until hopefully money falls out of its ass.

Magic cake is really just copious amounts of LSD mixed with some Salvia and possibly magic shrooms baked into a cake. I'm not sure if either of those ingredients would break down in the baking process but assuming you didnt take something like a kilo of LSD or 300 individual mushrooms, you should'nt have to go to a hospital. Not that I would know of course, just saying...

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: mwmorph

Originally posted by: TidusZ
In all fairness, Earthbound had its share of dungeons. It even had a dungeon man. 70% of people go right, the other 30% find a warm bench and phone. Btw if anyone finds the recipe for magic cake lmk cus I've been to the hospital twice trying to figure it out and I haven't gotten any closer.

Signed, your best pal
Pokey

Oh I have nothing against dungeons, at some point a RPG is probably going to have dungeons. What I don't like is the generic fantasy setting. Is nobody else tired of paladins, rangers, wizards, bows, swords, "sexy elves" and female plate armor that seems protect in inverse compared to area covered? Tolkien must be rolling in his grave considering how cliche his ideas have become.

It's no longer just beating a dead horse, it's like taking dead horse and using it as a blunt bludgeoning object to beat another dead horse until hopefully money falls out of its ass.

Magic cake is really just copious amounts of LSD mixed with some Salvia and possibly magic shrooms baked into a cake. I'm not sure if either of those ingredients would break down in the baking process but assuming you didnt take something like a kilo of LSD or 300 individual mushrooms, you should'nt have to go to a hospital. Not that I would know of course, just saying...

You are not the only one that desires more variety, but I think that what the consumers want more so are these fantasy games done right. There are TONS of them out there that either suck or are mediocre but it is very rare that one of them comes out and is as fun as Diablo, WoW, and Elder Scrolls according to majority opinion for example.

This is why I was craving Fallout 3 so much and I am very satisfied thus far.

 

[TidusZ]

Ya Fallout 3 is sick, but its more of a 40-50 hour game at best while diablo and wow, well, I spent almost 1/2 year gametime on that. Diablo doesnt have /played, but its probably similar. Bring on Diablo 3 btw.

 

[Xavier434]

Originally posted by: TidusZ
Ya Fallout 3 is sick, but its more of a 40-50 hour game at best while diablo and wow, well, I spent almost 1/2 year gametime on that. Diablo doesnt have /played, but its probably similar. Bring on Diablo 3 btw.

More than enough time with my schedule. Remember, not all of us are single and/or in college.

 

[coloumb]

Did you know Tabula Rasa started out as a Fantasy based MMO? Tabula Rasa was actually a fun game - the crafting was a failure as it was nothing more than "enchanting" your gear. The fact that the game failed clearly indicates what kind of genre people want to play - Fantasy based.

I really don't forsee any MMO toppling or perma-taking away subscribers from WoW anytime soon. The devs actually did a good job with WOTLK - they implemented quite a few new features [phasing and sci-fi feel to a few of the instances] and "copied" existing features from other MMO's [Wintergrasp - outdoor pvp zone with destructible environments [WAR], Death Knights [JEDI from SWG], etc.

KOTOR online - it'll be interesting to see if they can pull it off. However, I really won't be surprised if the subscriber #'s spike at the start then dwindle down to low levels a few months after it's released.

 

[Via]

Most MMORPGs are fantasy based because the "lore" is ready-made. No effort is required on the developer's part to create a world in which the game takes place.

Almost everybody (gamer or not) already has some sort of idea in their minds about Wizards and fighters, spells and armor, goblins and trolls etc.

 

[brandonb]

The reason is because MMO games have an inherit lag to it. Fantasy works because the server can just calculate "dice rolls" to the game, something fantasy games have always done. You can't create twitch games with MMORPGS because of the lag. What if you are trying to aim your blaster at a mob to determine if you hit it. With server side calculation, what you aimed at is not where your shot ended up due to the latency. Server side calculation is required to prevent hackers and aimbots etc in an MMO type environment.

Since a ranger only has to target the mob and hit "range attack" the arrow shoots out like a guided missile and the server does a dice roll to determine a hit or miss. It has nothing to do with aim.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I always thought a game like the Original Day of defeat with a massive map like World War II Online could be interesting. Litter the map with flags that need to be capped and dynamically adjust the spawn points and reinforcement points based on flag ownership. One could even simulate encirclements by reducing the amount of available reinforcement points in the encircled area. Add in limited armor and the ability to call in artillery.

you mean like BF2 and it's vile spawn?


also, it's a lot easier to make a fantasy based game in respect to items. magic is a huge factor.

how many sci-fi stories use magic? would you have a Laser Pistol of Sexuality that grants +3 to your charisma? it just works better in a fantasy setting.

 

[jRaskell]

GW is actually the only MMOG I play on a regular basis. It doesn't punish you for being a noob when you start and allows reallocating skill points and character classes anytime. Also it kills the grindfest unless you really want to and it actually has a cohesive storyline told through cutscenes, something I'm not sure any other MMORPG has.

GW was not an MMOG. It was an MOG with in-game chat rooms.

The standard MMO formula requires incorporation of grind and repetition. The money is in the monthly fees, and it is currently impossible for even a large team of developers to provide enough content to keep millions of customers subscribed for long periods without incorporating grind and repetition. And it will remain impossible until some means of procedurally generating meaningful dynamic content is developed.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: Via
Most MMORPGs are fantasy based because the "lore" is ready-made. No effort is required on the developer's part to create a world in which the game takes place.

Almost everybody (gamer or not) already has some sort of idea in their minds about Wizards and fighters, spells and armor, goblins and trolls etc.

This is also true for sci-fi. There is lots of non-fantasy settings that could be used with little trouble. Everyone has a basic idea about lasers, shields, aliens, and killer robots as well.
Grab any one of hundreds of well developed sci-fi settings to use for a ready-made 'lore'

Originally posted by: brandonb
The reason is because MMO games have an inherit lag to it.

That can be fixed with a little fuging or the aim or by useing the same mechanic that SWG used, which made it feel like you were aiming but it just had to get in the general area + skill based hitroll.

Originally posted by: pontifex

also, it's a lot easier to make a fantasy based game in respect to items. magic is a huge factor.

how many sci-fi stories use magic? would you have a Laser Pistol of Sexuality that grants +3 to your charisma? it just works better in a fantasy setting.

You obviously never played any Sci-fi RPG's. There is all types of explanations why technology can give you bonuses to stats and almost anything else. It can be anything from cyberware, to temporary molecular bio-medications (potions), to holo-projection makeup effects. Want +STR call the armor powered, want it to give a +INT then it has a Neural Library Interface AI built in. You ring give +CHA due to a nano-holo projector that projects a pleasing image onto your ugly mug.
If you really must have magic then you just rename everything to a psychic power. He does not throw fireballs, he uses pyrokenises on his targets.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: jRaskell

GW is actually the only MMOG I play on a regular basis. It doesn't punish you for being a noob when you start and allows reallocating skill points and character classes anytime. Also it kills the grindfest unless you really want to and it actually has a cohesive storyline told through cutscenes, something I'm not sure any other MMORPG has.

GW was not an MMOG. It was an MOG with in-game chat rooms.

The standard MMO formula requires incorporation of grind and repetition. The money is in the monthly fees, and it is currently impossible for even a large team of developers to provide enough content to keep millions of customers subscribed for long periods without incorporating grind and repetition. And it will remain impossible until some means of procedurally generating meaningful dynamic content is developed.

Or they tap into crowdsourcing. They would have to come up with sometype of oversite and formula to keep things balanced, but user created content could keep up with demand with only a fraction of the effort.

 

[s44]

Because of their MUD lineage.

 

[pontifex]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: Via
Most MMORPGs are fantasy based because the "lore" is ready-made. No effort is required on the developer's part to create a world in which the game takes place.

Almost everybody (gamer or not) already has some sort of idea in their minds about Wizards and fighters, spells and armor, goblins and trolls etc.

This is also true for sci-fi. There is lots of non-fantasy settings that could be used with little trouble. Everyone has a basic idea about lasers, shields, aliens, and killer robots as well.
Grab any one of hundreds of well developed sci-fi settings to use for a ready-made 'lore'

Originally posted by: brandonb
The reason is because MMO games have an inherit lag to it.

That can be fixed with a little fuging or the aim or by useing the same mechanic that SWG used, which made it feel like you were aiming but it just had to get in the general area + skill based hitroll.

Originally posted by: pontifex

also, it's a lot easier to make a fantasy based game in respect to items. magic is a huge factor.

how many sci-fi stories use magic? would you have a Laser Pistol of Sexuality that grants +3 to your charisma? it just works better in a fantasy setting.

You obviously never played any Sci-fi RPG's. There is all types of explanations why technology can give you bonuses to stats and almost anything else. It can be anything from cyberware, to temporary molecular bio-medications (potions), to holo-projection makeup effects. Want +STR call the armor powered, want it to give a +INT then it has a Neural Library Interface AI built in. You ring give +CHA due to a nano-holo projector that projects a pleasing image onto your ugly mug.
If you really must have magic then you just rename everything to a psychic power. He does not throw fireballs, he uses pyrokenises on his targets.

i have played a few sci-fi-ish mmos, just giving a reason as to why it's easier.


i dunno...whatever.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: s44
Because of their MUD lineage.

This might be the closest thing to the truth. MMOs grew from a combination of MUDs and the old SSI Gold Box type games, specifically Neverwinter Nights Online.

There were (are) a few non-fantasy MUDs out there, but they were never popular as the fantasy ones, and of course the SSI gold box games had a few Buck Rogers titles as well, but I know no one that actually played them (the Buck Rogers Gold Box games.) That probably sealed the fate of players expectations on what MMO's would be like in the future. Expectation is a powerful market force.