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What?! Madrid attacks weren't by the big, bad, omnipresent Al Qaeda???

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Madrid Bombings Show No al-Qaida Ties
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060309/ap_on_re_eu/spain_homegrown_terror
MADRID, Spain - A two-year probe into the Madrid train bombings concludes the Islamic terrorists who carried out the blasts were homegrown radicals acting on their own rather than at the behest of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network, two senior intelligence officials said.

Spain still remains home to a web of radical Algerian, Moroccan and Syrian groups bent on carrying out attacks ? and aiding the insurgency against U.S. troops in
Iraq ? the Spanish intelligence chief and a Western official intimately involved in counterterrorism measures in Spain told The Associated Press.

The intelligence chief said there were no phone calls between the Madrid bombers and al-Qaida and no money transfers. The Western official said the plotters had links to other Islamic radicals in Western Europe, but the plan was hatched and organized in Spain. "This was not an al-Qaida operation," he said. "It was homegrown."

Both men spoke on condition of anonymity, the first because Spanish security officials are not allowed to discuss details of an ongoing investigation and the second due to the sensitive nature of his job.

The attack has been frequently described as al-Qaida-linked since a man who identified himself as Abu Dujan al-Afghani and said he was al-Qaida's "European military spokesman," claimed responsibility in a video released two days later.

Ahead of Saturday's anniversary of the March 11, 2004 blasts ? which killed 191 people and wounded 1,500 ? victims' groups have been clamoring for more progress in the investigation.

Gabriel Moris, whose 30-year-old son died in the bombings, said: "These past two years have done nothing to clear up what happened. My questions are simple: Who ordered the massacre? Who killed my son and the other innocent victims?"

The intelligence official said authorities know more than they have revealed, including the suspected ideological and operational masterminds of the attack.

"We haven't explained it well enough to the victims because we can't reveal judicial secrets," he said, adding the investigation is nearly complete.

Authorities believe the ideological mastermind was Serhan Ben Abdelmajid Fakhet, a Tunisian who blew himself up along with six other suspects when police surrounded their apartment three weeks after the bombings, and that Jamal Ahmidan, a Moroccan who also died that day, was the "military planner."

Law enforcement had focused on another man, Allekema Lamari, as the head of the group. But the official said evidence, particularly from wiretapped phone conversations, indicated it was Ahmidan who gave the military orders. Lamari also died in the apartment blast in a Madrid suburb as authorities closed in.

Some 116 people have been arrested in the bombings, and 24 remain jailed. At least three others ? Said Berraj, Mohammed Belhadj and Daoud Ouhane ? are sought by authorities, though all are believed to have fled Spain long ago. The intelligence official said the top planners are all either dead or in jail.

While the plotters of the Madrid attack were likely motivated by bin Laden's October 2003 call for attacks on European countries that supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there is no evidence they were in contact with the al-Qaida leader's inner circle, the intelligence official said.

Most of the plotters were Moroccan and Syrian immigrants, many with criminal records in Spain for drug trafficking and other crimes. They paid for explosives used in the attack with hashish.

That is a far cry from the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States ? allegedly planned by al-Qaida leaders like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh and funded directly by the terror network through international wire transfers and Islamic banking schemes.

Paul Wilkinson, chairman of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St. Andrews, in Scotland, said the model used in Madrid, and likely for the July 7 London transport bombings fits in well with al-Qaida's business plan.

"Al-Qaida is not and never was a topdown organization that did everything in terms of attacks around the world. They have a key role in ideological terms ... but they rely on local cells and those that are inspired to carry out these attacks," he said.

After the fact, bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahri are happy to claim responsibility because they recognize the carnage as inspired by their movement.

Still, Wilkinson cautioned that just because no direct link has been established between the Madrid plotters and al-Qaida, it doesn't mean none exists. "If security officials knew everything that was going on, we would have caught Osama bin Laden by now," he said.

Both the Spanish intelligence chief and the Western official said there is reason for concern despite the lack of a direct al-Qaida connection.

"There were a lot of moving parts to the March 11 plot, but we were still not able to detect it, and that is scary because a similar thing could happen again," said the Western counterterrorism official. "Since March 11, there have been plans for other significant attacks that the Spanish have disrupted."

Those plans include a scheme in late 2004 to bomb buildings in Barcelona, including the 1992 Olympic village and office towers known as the city's World Trade Center complex. Police also thwarted a 2004 plot by Moroccan and Algerian militants to level Madrid's National Court ? a hub for anti-terror investigations ? with a 1,100-pound truck bomb.

And agents specializing in Islamic terrorism have arrested dozens of suspects ? all allegedly working to recruit potential suicide bombers for the Iraq insurgency.

At least two Spanish citizens ? including March 11 suspect Mohammed Afalah ? are believed to have blown themselves up in Iraq, and an investigation by the respected El Pais daily revealed some 80 others have traveled to the country in recent months intending to do the same.

The intelligence official said the March 11 attacks were a wakeup call, and authorities are much better prepared now to stop Islamic terrorism. But he said the bombings show how easy it is for those bent on terrorism to carry out attacks.

He said authorities believe the Madrid bombers learned how to construct the bombs ? all connected to Mitsubishi Trium T110 mobile phones ? from Internet sites linked to radical Islamic groups. The devices were similar to ones used in the 2002 Bali bombing, he said, evidence that militants in both countries got information on the same radical Web sites.

Spanish authorities were monitoring several of the bombers in the months before the attack ? and actually stopped Ahmidan's car on a highway in late February, unaware he was leading a caravan of other terrorists transporting the explosives used in the blasts.

The intelligence official said authorities had never imagined a group of petty drug traffickers were capable of planning such a massive attack.

"Had we been told a day before (the bombing) that this is what was going on, we would have dismissed it," he said.

You mean the big bad Al Qaeda boogeyman is a farce? That Al Qaeda isn't a highly organized worldwide terror group with cells in every country managed by bin Laden and Zawahiri?

Ya don't say?

Never woulda thunk it.



Perhaps this *will* wake gov'ts up to internal threats and to stop focusing on some neocon nightmare called Al Qaeda.
 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
If Al Qaeda is a farce, then why do you have "Where's bin Laden?" in your sig? Why do you care about a farce?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
The fact you had to ask that question speaks volumes to your ignorance. Thanks for playing.
 

Polish3d

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2005
5,500
0
0
From the info I have at present, it seems that Al Qaeda is not a farce overall, but the notion of Al Qaeda as "Al Qaeda is to terror, what the mafia is to crime" (ie, a super-structure of organized terrorists) is false.

If anything, it seems its more a movement where local militants (like Zarqawi) adopt the Al Qaeda name ... but it doesn't seem to be a terrorist shadow ops army type group at all.

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
0
0
Originally posted by: conjur
The fact you had to ask that question speaks volumes to your ignorance. Thanks for playing.
OH sorry I forget everytime someone disagrees/questions you they are a fvcking idiot. Why don't you say it really fvcking slow so I might understand?

Why does your signature refer to the leader of a "farce"? Is it because we haven't found bin laden, that means AQ is a farce?
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Frackal
From the info I have at present, it seems that Al Qaeda is not a farce overall, but the notion of Al Qaeda as "Al Qaeda is to terror, what the mafia is to crime" (ie, a super-structure of organized terrorists) is false.

If anything, it seems its more a movement where local militants (like Zarqawi) adopt the Al Qaeda name ... but it doesn't seem to be a terrorist shadow ops army type group at all.
That's the point I was getting at. I thought it was fairly obvious in my commentary but thanks for spelling it out in better words, Frackal.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.
 

loup garou

Lifer
Feb 17, 2000
35,132
1
81
Originally posted by: Frackal
From the info I have at present, it seems that Al Qaeda is not a farce overall, but the notion of Al Qaeda as "Al Qaeda is to terror, what the mafia is to crime" (ie, a super-structure of organized terrorists) is false.

If anything, it seems its more a movement where local militants (like Zarqawi) adopt the Al Qaeda name ... but it doesn't seem to be a terrorist shadow ops army type group at all.
:thumbsup:
Well said.
 

Pens1566

Lifer
Oct 11, 2005
13,787
11,420
136
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.

Unless they thought it would make the people rally around the current govt. Worked here, didn't it now?
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.

Where did I say that it was the then-current Spanish government?
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,389
47,678
136
I didn't expect this from their Spanish Inquisition! :laugh:



/rimshot
 

EatSpam

Diamond Member
May 1, 2005
6,423
0
0
Originally posted by: alchemize
If Al Qaeda is a farce, then why do you have "Where's bin Laden?" in your sig? Why do you care about a farce?

Mostly to mess with the Bush-faithful. Bush promised us Bin Laden after 9/11 and hasn't delivered.
 

1prophet

Diamond Member
Aug 17, 2005
5,313
534
126
Radical Islam is an ideology that does not restrict itself to such groups as al-Qaida or need a direct connection to some main organization to lead it.

From article:

While the plotters of the Madrid attack were likely motivated by bin Laden's October 2003 call for attacks on European countries that supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there is no evidence they were in contact with the al-Qaida leader's inner circle, the intelligence official said.

Most of the plotters were Moroccan and Syrian immigrants, many with criminal records in Spain for drug trafficking and other crimes. They paid for explosives used in the attack with hashish.

That is a far cry from the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States ? allegedly planned by al-Qaida leaders like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh and funded directly by the terror network through international wire transfers and Islamic banking schemes.

Paul Wilkinson, chairman of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St. Andrews, in Scotland, said the model used in Madrid, and likely for the July 7 London transport bombings fits in well with al-Qaida's business plan.

"Al-Qaida is not and never was a topdown organization that did everything in terms of attacks around the world. They have a key role in ideological terms ... but they rely on local cells and those that are inspired to carry out these attacks," he said.

After the fact, bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahri are happy to claim responsibility because they recognize the carnage as inspired by their movement.

Still, Wilkinson cautioned that just because no direct link has been established between the Madrid plotters and al-Qaida, it doesn't mean none exists. "If security officials knew everything that was going on, we would have caught Osama bin Laden by now," he said.

As long as the West approaches radical Islam like some well defined enemy that can be labeled and categorized like those in the past they will never be defeated and only grow.

How does one fight an ideology that uses the Wests own freedoms and liberties in order to destroy them while at the same time utterly rejecting Western freedoms and beliefs like this man did Sayyid Qutb?
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.

Where did I say that it was the then-current Spanish government?

Who controls the Spanish intelligence agencies? Last I checked it was THE GOVERNMENT IN POWER AT THE TIME, holy ******. You didn't say it because it's obvious.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: 1prophet
Radical Islam is an ideology that does not restrict itself to such groups as al-Qaida or need a direct connection to some main organization to lead it.

From article:

While the plotters of the Madrid attack were likely motivated by bin Laden's October 2003 call for attacks on European countries that supported the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, there is no evidence they were in contact with the al-Qaida leader's inner circle, the intelligence official said.

Most of the plotters were Moroccan and Syrian immigrants, many with criminal records in Spain for drug trafficking and other crimes. They paid for explosives used in the attack with hashish.

That is a far cry from the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States ? allegedly planned by al-Qaida leaders like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Ramzi Binalshibh and funded directly by the terror network through international wire transfers and Islamic banking schemes.

Paul Wilkinson, chairman of the Centre for the Study of Terrorism and Political Violence at the University of St. Andrews, in Scotland, said the model used in Madrid, and likely for the July 7 London transport bombings fits in well with al-Qaida's business plan.

"Al-Qaida is not and never was a topdown organization that did everything in terms of attacks around the world. They have a key role in ideological terms ... but they rely on local cells and those that are inspired to carry out these attacks," he said.

After the fact, bin Laden and his deputy Ayman al-Zawahri are happy to claim responsibility because they recognize the carnage as inspired by their movement.

Still, Wilkinson cautioned that just because no direct link has been established between the Madrid plotters and al-Qaida, it doesn't mean none exists. "If security officials knew everything that was going on, we would have caught Osama bin Laden by now," he said.

As long as the West approaches radical Islam like some well defined enemy that can be labeled and categorized like those in the past they will never be defeated and only grow.

How does one fight an ideology that uses the Wests own freedoms and liberties in order to destroy them while at the same time utterly rejecting Western freedoms and beliefs like this man did Sayyid Qutb?
One can start by rejecting an interventionist foreign policy that has installed pro-US leader after leader in the Middle East (and elsewhere).
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.

Where did I say that it was the then-current Spanish government?

Who controls the Spanish intelligence agencies? Last I checked it was THE GOVERNMENT IN POWER AT THE TIME, holy ******. You didn't say it because it's obvious.

Don't be so naive.
 

homercles337

Diamond Member
Dec 29, 2004
6,340
3
71
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: conjur
The fact you had to ask that question speaks volumes to your ignorance. Thanks for playing.
OH sorry I forget everytime someone disagrees/questions you they are a fvcking idiot. Why don't you say it really fvcking slow so I might understand?

Why does your signature refer to the leader of a "farce"? Is it because we haven't found bin laden, that means AQ is a farce?

I dont know why im wasting my time with you, but you forget that intel tied bin Laden to 9/11 and he said that he and his group did it. Fact is, neocons give al-Qaida too much credit--they want to scare you. Much like the boogey man, neocons want you to believe that al-Qaida is everywhere, waiting to "pounce" on you and your family. Let me ask you this: Are all the insurgents in Iraq tied to al-Qaida? If you even have to think about the answer, turn off Faux News, and go OUTSIDE!
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
I think this is a crucial piece of information that intelligent people (and intelligence people) already understand, but one that is glossed over by our GI-JOE foreign policy. All extremists are not created equal, and more importantly, all extremists are not part of the same group. This last bit is critical. Even if Iraq is filled with terrorists, they are not the same terrorists that attacked Spain, or the US, or England. Killing terrorists in Iraq does not, Bush's suggestion aside, mean we don't have to fight them here. Lumping them all into the GWOT (as some people have taken to calling it) is a deadly mistake, as it implies that fighting any terrorist is just as good as fighting any other terrorists. This leads to the mistaken belief that all we have to do is attack some "terrorists", somewhere (a far too broadly defined term, by the way) and we're making great progress in the war on terror.
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: ntdz
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
You have fallen for the bait. It was most likely facilitated by Spanish or other European intelligence agencies.

Yeah, the Spanish government planned the attacks three days before the election so they can promptly lose them. What a stupid, idiotic, and ignorant statement.

Where did I say that it was the then-current Spanish government?

Who controls the Spanish intelligence agencies? Last I checked it was THE GOVERNMENT IN POWER AT THE TIME, holy ******. You didn't say it because it's obvious.

Don't be so naive.

Stop making a bunch of ridiculous conspiracy theories claiming the Spanish intelligence agencies were involved with absolutely *ZERO* proof of what you claim. Have you read anything, or seen any evidence, that somehow proves, or even lends a little credence to this theory you have? Didn't think so, it's all out of your delusional little mind...
 

ntdz

Diamond Member
Aug 5, 2004
6,989
0
0
Originally posted by: homercles337
Originally posted by: alchemize
Originally posted by: conjur
The fact you had to ask that question speaks volumes to your ignorance. Thanks for playing.
OH sorry I forget everytime someone disagrees/questions you they are a fvcking idiot. Why don't you say it really fvcking slow so I might understand?

Why does your signature refer to the leader of a "farce"? Is it because we haven't found bin laden, that means AQ is a farce?

I dont know why im wasting my time with you, but you forget that intel tied bin Laden to 9/11 and he said that he and his group did it. Fact is, neocons give al-Qaida too much credit--they want to scare you. Much like the boogey man, neocons want you to believe that al-Qaida is everywhere, waiting to "pounce" on you and your family. Let me ask you this: Are all the insurgents in Iraq tied to al-Qaida? If you even have to think about the answer, turn off Faux News, and go OUTSIDE!

Ever heard of a guy named Zarqawi, the leader of Al Qaeda in Iraq, the same guy that swore allegence to Bin Laden? Are all of them tied? No, but some are, and most of the worst ones are.
 

StormRider

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2000
8,324
2
0
Al Qaeda is like the super secret agency known as Hydra in the Captain America comics. There is no central organization -- but rather a loosely knit organization with many automanous cells. Hydra had many "heads' -- you kill one, another one pops up. Even though the Madrid attacks weren't "officially" organized by Al Qaeda, I still consider it to be an Al Qaeda inspired attack.
 

CanOWorms

Lifer
Jul 3, 2001
12,404
2
0
Originally posted by: ntdz

Stop making a bunch of ridiculous conspiracy theories claiming the Spanish intelligence agencies were involved with absolutely *ZERO* proof of what you claim. Have you read anything, or seen any evidence, that somehow proves, or even lends a little credence to this theory you have? Didn't think so, it's all out of your delusional little mind...

It's just my theory. I think that more will be revealed in the future. Such was the case with France's organization of the Rwanda genocide. I believe the bombing was organized in a campaign to drum up support for a new genocide.
 

chcarnage

Golden Member
May 11, 2005
1,751
0
0
Originally posted by: CanOWorms
Originally posted by: ntdz
Who controls the Spanish intelligence agencies? Last I checked it was THE GOVERNMENT IN POWER AT THE TIME, holy ******. You didn't say it because it's obvious.

Don't be so naive.

ntdz you forgot that CanOWorms is a specialist in Spanish secret services. He's also a specialist for the far right in the EU. Too bad he won't answer that topic anymore and prefers to throw in some short and smug remarks elsewhere.

CanOWorms: Why do you believe the statements from the secret service in this article when in your opinion they pulled the strings in the attacks?
Why did the secret service order or tolerate the attacks? Because they wanted genocide in Europe, or do you have something more creative for us?

Ontopic: I can't completely judge the performance of the police and the secret service. But I have to say that I was surprised when they circumvented a house with some of the criminals inside briefly after the attack.

Not only relatives of victimes like Gabriel Moris want to know who was behind the attackers. But there is not always the kind of "easy" answers those people would like to hear, or a part of this information is lost forever because some of the criminals took them with them to the grave when they killed themselves.

Edit :D Well it required me no transcendental power to guess the genocide thing. Although the motive for genocide and the proofs for the idea have to remain in the dark, as always.