corwin
Diamond Member
Then your "union" isn't doing their job
They are an anachronism that needs to go, they don't serve a valid purpose in the modern world, their time has passed
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What Is Your Experience With Unions?
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They are an anachronism that needs to go, they don't serve a valid purpose in the modern world, their time has passed
Brian Stirling
Diamond Member
And by shear coincidence union membership has declined by a factor of 4 and US companies continue to move factories to Asia.
Trust me, it's just a coincidence...
Brian
JMapleton
Diamond Member
My philosophy is if you want to earn more money, get a better or different job. Or start a business. Don't form an organization whose only purpose is to hold a company's workforce hostage to negotiate higher than market rate wages.
I also think government workers should not be allowed to be in unions. The police force, firefighters, public utilities, etc should not be allowed to ask for a blank check in exchange for holding the public's safety and essential services hostage.
I, JMapleton, personally do not like my job and I am not paid enough. I work in finance. That's my problem, not my company's problem. So I'm going to find a better one.
I also think government workers should not be allowed to be in unions. The police force, firefighters, public utilities, etc should not be allowed to ask for a blank check in exchange for holding the public's safety and essential services hostage.
I, JMapleton, personally do not like my job and I am not paid enough. I work in finance. That's my problem, not my company's problem. So I'm going to find a better one.
Ns1
No Lifer
You should strike! Picket the office door so the workers can't come in in the morning.
JMapleton
Diamond Member
Whenever union advocates face an anti-union person they also resort back to the same thing. They bring up things unions achieved 100 years ago. What does that have to do with now?
The pony express was useful 150 years ago, does that justify it's existence today?
rh71
No Lifer
I can understand the need to protect workers' rights. Protect from being overworked, tossed aside, no benefits, etc. But when they have the ability to negotiate salary across the board, based on experience, etc. disregarding performance, it's simply wrong.
What's worse is teacher's unions are paid by US, the tax payer. $120k kindergarten teachers, $10k/yr school taxes (then you add property taxes). It doesn't matter if you perform like shit in crappy towns - if you're union, you're good. I'm not lying.
F* public sector unions.
What's worse is teacher's unions are paid by US, the tax payer. $120k kindergarten teachers, $10k/yr school taxes (then you add property taxes). It doesn't matter if you perform like shit in crappy towns - if you're union, you're good. I'm not lying.
F* public sector unions.
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IronWing
No Lifer
$120k kindergarten teachers? $10k school taxes? Evidence that you aren't lying?
Ns1
No Lifer
fuck hard work and intelligence, join a union.
<dons giant PROUDLY MADE IN THE USA WITH UNION LABOR flame suit>
IronWing
No Lifer
Selfishness is okay for employers but not employees then?
JMapleton
Diamond Member
Yes, because the employer owns the company. It's their property. You have the right to be selfish about your own house. Your own yard. Your own car.
A factory, office building, or storefront is private property owned by an individual or a group of individuals. You have no ownership. You are only a mechanism for their profit.
Start your own factory and you can be selfish too.
master_shake_
Diamond Member
i belong to something better than a union.
it's called the "ontario college of trades".
it's a sweet deal.
you pay them 3 times what a license used to cost and all they do is fine you.
great use of 100k a year for enforcement officers. don't forget all the government jobs they made.
it's called the "ontario college of trades".
it's a sweet deal.
you pay them 3 times what a license used to cost and all they do is fine you.
great use of 100k a year for enforcement officers. don't forget all the government jobs they made.
Mixolydian
Lifer
JMapleton
Diamond Member
Scare tactics, nice. What politician would take away those things and remain elected? Oh wait, I know, you'll say the politicians will somehow stay in office because corporations would "buy" their way for them.
Then you really don't understand public safety unions. We can't strike
Ns1
No Lifer
just call in sick. today. tomorrow. the day after. the day after that. the day after that.
Engineer
Elite Member
Used to belong to the Kroger union....one that I paid union dues to only to get minimum wage in return. I'm not a big fan of unions but I can see that the downfall of unions (for various reasons) has led to the average worker losing leverage over time in terms of wages, benefits, etc. (not the only reason but part of it).
Once global wages start to rise, I would expect union membership to start to rise worldwide again in attempts to move more money from the haves to the have nots.
Once global wages start to rise, I would expect union membership to start to rise worldwide again in attempts to move more money from the haves to the have nots.
And wait for it, you get fired. It's called a job action and it's also illegal.
Now, I'm aware of some foreign fire services striking, but none in the US that I'm familiar with.
Sick leave abuse (AKA a blue flue) is bogeyman brought out occasionally, but it wouldn't work the way you think it would.
In another job, if you call out sick your spot goes unfilled. But in all of the agencies I have experience with, we have something called minimum staffing. If too many people call out sick, and not enough volunteer to work, you are involuntarily held over at the end of your shift.
So the services are still provided, and the only ones hurt would be your Union Brothers/Sisters being held to fill spots.
JMapleton
Diamond Member
Honest question, how do you have any negotiating power if you cannot strike?
FallenHero
Diamond Member
Binding arbitration. Basically if the city doesn't negotiate in good faith, a federal arbitrator can come in and rule completely against the city and give the union everything it has been asking for. Its rare, but it does happen. Most of the time, the arbitrator will only decide on 1 or 2 issues that neither side can agree on. I've seen rulings go either way. I should say that the ruling has the force of law and cannot be overruled or ignored (im sure there are some odd cases involving the courts, but those are extremely rare)
It does work both ways. Both sides have to play nice or the feds lay the smackdown. Easiest example would be wages...if a union is asking for 2.5% every year for 3 years and the city offers -1% every year despite every surrounding town giving approximately 2.5% raises and has no financial hardship to show that the union needs to take a paycut, the feds get mad. Same goes for Unions asking for 6% when everyone around them is getting 1%. Unless they can show that the 6% is warranted, the feds will rule in the city's favor.
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Until several years ago it was informally termed collective begging, as we really had no recourse if we did not agree with the offer from the employer. We could seek arbitration, but in the end it was up to them to fund it, or just do as they like. Public support campaigns were the only other alternative, (although active negotiations are prohibited from disclosure.)
We do have binding arbitration now, where if no agreement is reached the packages go to a independent arbiter who selects one package as a whole. It's all of this or all of that system deliberately designed to try to force agreement at the table or reasonable offers if it goes to arbitration. If you reach too far, you grant a win to the other party and they get their whole package.
As far as how we got the arbitration, it was done as a referendum amending our County Charter with about a 4 to 1 approval among the voters.
Interesting, these systems vary somewhat across the country.
In ours, it's a private arbitrator from a national organization, selected from a list by process of elimination by both sides. My understanding is many are retired judges or similar backgrounds though.
FallenHero
Diamond Member
We go through the Feds, but there is a selection process. Basically, 3 names are presented to us and each side eliminates one. Never heard of a private party doing it, but I suppose it achieves the same end. This is only my second contract I've been involved in. Still learning a ton.
Mostly about how my Union protects my safety vs. the city I work for wanting to make it so we work 12 hour days 7 days a week for 10 dollars an hour. If it would save them money, they would do it. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.
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