What is wrong with the airlines...

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Ok, this is my semi-informed opinion here, so feel free to flame away...

It seems to me that the major airlines have missed the boat completely.

When airlines first started service, they were a royal affair. Red carpet treatment, only the wealthy and government workers could fly.

Back in those days, flying was an adventure, an experience in and of itself. Many flights in the old piston airliners were all day adventures taking up to 14 hours to fly long distances with as many as 60 people on board. Even with the advent of the 707 and jet service, flying was still a "luxury" event that was to be treasured for the experience.

Today, flying is a way to get somewhere, no more and no less. A seat on an airliner today is like a bus seat, a place to put your fanny while you're taken from point A to point B in the least amount of time for the least amount of money possible

Airlines have gone from being luxury transportation to the flying Greyhound Bus service. Someone just forgot to tell the major airlines.

The people who founded Southwest figured this out 30 years ago. Forget first class, fancy meals, in-flight movies, and all that jazz. Just take a bunch of people from Point "A" to Point "B" as quickly, cheaply, and hassle free as possible.

That is what the vast majority of people want today in their airline. Simple, easy, hassle free.

When I need to fly to Oklahoma City, OK from Dallas, TX, American Airlines charges 6 different fares that change all the time, even during the day. I never can tell how much it is going to cost on any given day without searching.

I know Southwest will charge me $92 for a last minute purchase and $63 for a 7 day advance purchase ticket. Doesn't matter what day I fly, doesn't matter when I want to come back. The price is the same all week long, every hour of every day.

BTW, since I've flown this many times, I can tell you that most of the time, American's lowest fare is $109. Not bad, but still $17 more than Southwest. Hmm, let me think here. Same airplanes, same service, same amount of time in the air, one costs more than the other...

Gee, whichever should I pick?

And that is why Southwest makes money year after year while American only makes money when the economy is good.

American Airlines lost $3.5 Billion last year
Southwest made a few tens of millions (not much but hey, all things considered, that ain't bad)

AMRs management should be fired for gross stupidity. They should copy Southwest's business plan using a Xerox machine. Don't get cute, don't try to "tweak it", don't try to personalize it, don't try to "enhance it", just copy the damm business plan and run with it.

It is not rocket science, all short range routes use 737s, medium range routes use 757/767s, long range routes use 777s.

Get rid of all other airplanes. (yes, including the Stupid 80s, you should be flying 737/757s on those routes)

Oh yea, something else you AA pilots won't like... Match Southwest's pay scales. You can't compete on price if you're paying everyone 50% more than Southwest does.

Oh, and that's another point. As long as everyone is flying the same airplanes to the same airports at the same speed, the only thing you have to compete on is price.

These are my own humble opinions, flame away...
 

MaxDSP

Lifer
May 15, 2001
10,056
0
71
only problem with getting rid of F10 and S80 is that youd be wasting a lot of resources to fly everyone on 737+ planes
 

shiner

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
17,112
1
0
Sounds valid to me.

How often are you in OKC? I'm just up the turnpike in Tulsa.
 

amnesiac

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
15,781
1
71
Southwest simply ROCKS.
For me they've always been cheap, fast, and on time.

Too bad they don't service Colorado because I know it'd be at least $50-100 cheaper than the other major carriers and thus I'd be able to fly out and see my girlie more than once a month.

I mean, last month they had $19 from LAX -> LAS (Vegas)!
 

rgwalt

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2000
7,393
0
0
My question is why are you flying from OK City to Dallas? It isn't that far of a drive. Three to four hours depending on which side of the city you start from and which side you are heading to.

Ryan
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Originally posted by: rgwalt
My question is why are you flying from OK City to Dallas? It isn't that far of a drive. Three to four hours depending on which side of the city you start from and which side you are heading to.

Ryan
That's true. Two possible reasons. First, I could be doing business up there during the day. 30 minutes each way on an airliner is better than 3 hours each way driving.

Second (and what I'm really doing), I'm flying it one way only. I'll fly a helicoper up there for major inspections, then fly Southwest back. Three or four days later when it is done, I'll fly Southwest back and fly the helicopter home.

Hopper
 

Torghn

Platinum Member
Mar 21, 2001
2,171
0
76
Originally posted by: rgwalt
My question is why are you flying from OK City to Dallas? It isn't that far of a drive. Three to four hours depending on which side of the city you start from and which side you are heading to. Ryan

Well if you count what it actualy cost to drive it ($0.32/mile is a common estamete) It's cheaper to fly. It's at least 200 miles from Dallas to OK city. 200*.32=$64. And a lot faster.
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
only problem with getting rid of F10 and S80 is that youd be wasting a lot of resources to fly everyone on 737+ planes
The purchase price of those airplanes is a minor amount of the overall cost of ownership.

American has offered to give away the F-100 airplanes so long as whoever takes them doesn't fly them on any route that American currently flies.

Yep, that's right, free airplanes, no charge.

If you think that's a good deal, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you. :D

Hopper

Hint: free airplanes get real expensive when you try to fly them and the manafacture is bankrupt. There is a reason American has had no one interested in them for free. They will end up getting parked out in the desert, never to fly again.

BTW, the Super 80s could actually be sold for about a million bucks a plane. Boeing 737-900s would cost about $35 million to buy new, but believe it or not, that's a bargin. The long run cost of ownership of the Super 80 is higher than the 737-900, even taking into account the cost to buy them.
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
I'll still drive before I fly. There would have to be an ocean in between me and where I was going for me to fly. Not that I don't feel safe, but why let someone else drive? I'll pilot my own craft thanks, even if it means I'm stuck on the ground. (Someday though I'll have a nice Piper Cherokee, or maybe I'll go for something more fun and find a Citabria.) :D

ZV
 

MaxDSP

Lifer
May 15, 2001
10,056
0
71
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
only problem with getting rid of F10 and S80 is that youd be wasting a lot of resources to fly everyone on 737+ planes
The purchase price of those airplanes is a minor amount of the overall cost of ownership.

American has offered to give away the F-100 airplanes so long as whoever takes them doesn't fly them on any route that American currently flies.

Yep, that's right, free airplanes, no charge.

If you think that's a good deal, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you. :D

Hopper

Hint: free airplanes get real expensive when you try to fly them and the manafacture is bankrupt. There is a reason American has had no one interested in them for free. They will end up getting parked out in the desert, never to fly again.

BTW, the Super 80s could actually be sold for about a million bucks a plane. Boeing 737-900s would cost about $35 million to buy new, but believe it or not, that's a bargin. The long run cost of ownership of the Super 80 is higher than the 737-900, even taking into account the cost to buy them.


Im talking more about the resources that the larger planes use up, such as fuel, labor hours, etc
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
only problem with getting rid of F10 and S80 is that youd be wasting a lot of resources to fly everyone on 737+ planes
The purchase price of those airplanes is a minor amount of the overall cost of ownership.

American has offered to give away the F-100 airplanes so long as whoever takes them doesn't fly them on any route that American currently flies.

Yep, that's right, free airplanes, no charge.

If you think that's a good deal, I've got some beachfront property in Arizona to sell you. :D

Hopper

Hint: free airplanes get real expensive when you try to fly them and the manafacture is bankrupt. There is a reason American has had no one interested in them for free. They will end up getting parked out in the desert, never to fly again.

BTW, the Super 80s could actually be sold for about a million bucks a plane. Boeing 737-900s would cost about $35 million to buy new, but believe it or not, that's a bargin. The long run cost of ownership of the Super 80 is higher than the 737-900, even taking into account the cost to buy them.
Im talking more about the resources that the larger planes use up, such as fuel, labor hours, etc
New planes cost a _lot_ less in terms of maintenance and labor.

ZV
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Originally posted by: MaxDSP
Im talking more about the resources that the larger planes use up, such as fuel, labor hours, etc
A 737-900 carries the same number of people and the same amount of freight as a Super 80 while flying just as far.

It costs about half as much to maintain and burns 1/3 less fuel. It also has a higher dispatch reliability rate which means they can keep fewer airplanes on standby to replace those that break down (this happens often enough to be a concern to the airlines).

Hopper
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I'll still drive before I fly. There would have to be an ocean in between me and where I was going for me to fly. Not that I don't feel safe, but why let someone else drive? I'll pilot my own craft thanks, even if it means I'm stuck on the ground. (Someday though I'll have a nice Piper Cherokee, or maybe I'll go for something more fun and find a Citabria.)

Citabria's are nice, a friend of mine owns one and I've been up in it several times. Not a very good cross country airplane, but a fun airplane to go punch some holes in the sky with.

Driving to OKC doesn't work if you then have to fly a helicopter back. How do you get your car back? :D

Hopper
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
I'll still drive before I fly. There would have to be an ocean in between me and where I was going for me to fly. Not that I don't feel safe, but why let someone else drive? I'll pilot my own craft thanks, even if it means I'm stuck on the ground. (Someday though I'll have a nice Piper Cherokee, or maybe I'll go for something more fun and find a Citabria.)

Citabria's are nice, a friend of mine owns one and I've been up in it several times. Not a very good cross country airplane, but a fun airplane to go punch some holes in the sky with.

Driving to OKC doesn't work if you then have to fly a helicopter back. How do you get your car back? :D

Hopper
Even better! Rental beater! :D :D

ZV
 

Grasshopper27

Banned
Sep 11, 2002
7,013
1
0
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Hopper
Even better! Rental beater! :D :D

ZV[/quote]

Huh? You mean rent a car? You do know it is more expensive to rent a car for that drive than it is to fly on Southwest, right?

Hopper
 

Zenmervolt

Elite member
Oct 22, 2000
24,514
36
91
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Even better! Rental beater! :D :D

ZV
Huh? You mean rent a car? You do know it is more expensive to rent a car for that drive than it is to fly on Southwest, right?

Hopper
I know, I'm just joking about being able to drive the crap out of a rented car.

ZV
 

Steve819

Senior member
Jul 29, 2001
459
0
0
Thank you for validating my honors thesis.

I argued that the airline industry became a commodity industry as a result of 9/11 which accelerated trends in the industry - namely financial trends, and business travel trends. Full fare travel (business travel) collapsed 50% in 2000 from about 7B to 3.5B. September 11th only made that worse. Business travelers have always paid five to ten times the cost of leisure travelers - effectively subsidizing their leisure brethren. Airline management thought has refused the recognize the fact, that as Southwest become more successful, business travelers became more price-conscious. The thinking in the industry is that business travel goes up and down depending on the economy performance and demand is relatively inelastic, but surveys have shown that business travelers are indeed very price-sensitive, and when they do cut back on air travel - the cutback is permanent.

Matching Southwest's business model won't result in AA becoming a success. For one thing, Southwest is too far along the experience curve, and has a huge advantage both in terms of customer loyalty and strategic strength. What company can overcome a 30 year head-start? The other problem lies in the hub and spoke model. AA cannot replicate Southwest's business model without shifting to the point-to-point model, which would cause mass unemployment in fringe airports and small communities, which serve as feeder airports to the main hub. The large costs in maintaining the model would be too much for AA to overcome as well.

The labor issues is not quite as simple as it first appears. The airline industry is one of two industries to be governed by the Railroad Labor Act. To save me a lot of typing, the act does not set down a set deadline for unions and management to finish negotiations. It instead allows both sides to prolong the entire affair until one side finally caves in. Trying to manage a business with annoyed employees who can be bitter over any amount of grievances is a difficult task as strikes can happen, causing airlines to lose millions, or management can make a foolish mistake and give in to the unions and cost the airline industry billions in labor costs. One of my proposed solutions was to remove the airline industry from the RLA and place it under the National Labor Relations Act, which sets down a hard deadline for settlement, and would over time improve airline unions/management relations.

The airline industry has numerous problems - both in high and unsustainable costs, and an overly-complex pricing structure. Both costs and pricing needs to be simplified, which then can allows airlines to make a profit with lower prices, which might entice back business travelers. This could take a considerable amount of time, with an enormous amount of pain and bankruptcies. I think recovery estimates by 2005 are optimistic. The airline industry needs to be purged of poor practices, and face the facts - change or die.
 

AnyMal

Lifer
Nov 21, 2001
15,780
0
76
Originally posted by: Torghn
Originally posted by: rgwalt
My question is why are you flying from OK City to Dallas? It isn't that far of a drive. Three to four hours depending on which side of the city you start from and which side you are heading to. Ryan

Well if you count what it actualy cost to drive it ($0.32/mile is a common estamete) It's cheaper to fly. It's at least 200 miles from Dallas to OK city. 200*.32=$64. And a lot faster.

I disagree with your math. The actual flight time will be roughly 30-40 minutes depending on the plane type and weather conditions. For example's sake, we'll say it's 30 minutes. Add 5 minutes at each destination for taxi time, plus at least two hours advance arrival time that is now requierd. You should be able to cover 200 miles in a car in rougly 3 hours at a cost of $10-15 for gas. Bottom line, I'd rather drive not only because it's cheaper, but because it will take appx the same amount of time.
 

rgwalt

Diamond Member
Apr 22, 2000
7,393
0
0
Originally posted by: Grasshopper27
Originally posted by: rgwalt
My question is why are you flying from OK City to Dallas? It isn't that far of a drive. Three to four hours depending on which side of the city you start from and which side you are heading to.

Ryan
That's true. Two possible reasons. First, I could be doing business up there during the day. 30 minutes each way on an airliner is better than 3 hours each way driving.

Second (and what I'm really doing), I'm flying it one way only. I'll fly a helicoper up there for major inspections, then fly Southwest back. Three or four days later when it is done, I'll fly Southwest back and fly the helicopter home.

Hopper

Ah, OK, that makes perfect sense.

Ryan
 

KokomoGST

Diamond Member
Nov 13, 2001
3,758
0
0
Well, airlines being pretty much da suck... due to crying babies, hyperactive kids, bad food, bad service, tiny cramped seats, etcetc...
rolleye.gif


I hate traveling on planes, esp after experiencing how wonderful high speed trains are... too bad Accela (Amtrak's high speed service) is so limted and crappy at the moment. You have big ol seats... quiet and smooth ride and you can get up and go to a dining car or a leisure car if that baby won't stop crying. Heck you can even get a sleeper and not worry about that.
 

melly

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2002
3,612
0
0
My biggest beef is with Air Canada. They are basically monopolizing the Canadian airline industry, run other airlines out of business. They cut many flight paths in Eastern Canada leaving people in remote areas without many alternatives. Their customer service stinks. They charge phenominal prices for airfare as it is, then wonder why they are losing customers. They blame it all on Sept 11. Funny that; this has been going on for years. They recently laid off 300 baggage handlers, and now Onex Corp has bought 30 % of the company because Air Canada is in trouble. Big shock there.
 

Freejack2

Diamond Member
Dec 31, 2000
7,751
8
91
I'll stick with Northwest.
We fly generally to one location in southern Indiana, but it still has applied to when we've flow elsewhere.
Northwest has always been about the same price as Southwest. Oftentimes they beat Southwest's so called bargain prices.
Northwest isn't a flying cattle car where I have to take a number and pray I get to sit next to my wife. We get assigned seats that we pick.
Northwest flies into the city we are going to. We don't have to fly into some distant airport that Southwest flies into and then rent a car driving 3 hours, or having to have someone drive 6 hours round trip to pick us up.

Just because I'm a cow doesn't mean I want to fly in a Southwest cattle car. :p