What is variable valve timing?

JulesMaximus

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Jul 3, 2003
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Toyota's 1.8-liter engines with cam-shifting, as used in the last Celica GT-S and Lotus's Elise, are notorious for being gutless until they crest 6000 rpm, at which point the secondary cam engages with a violent rush of power.

I can vouch for this. Although in the Elise it's not pushing nearly as much weight around as in the Celica so even below 6000 rpm it is still pretty impressive.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Great article. Must read for everybody.

:thumbsup:

I'm still a little confused on the difference between the technologies. I thought V-TEC had two lobes (one vtec, one not...ya know...when the vtec kicks in yo) and the cam was shifted via a solenoid? If I'm reading this correctly it's just the phase of the cam itself that changes, but it's the same lobes doing the work?
 

natto fire

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Jan 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: spidey07
Great article. Must read for everybody.

:thumbsup:

I'm still a little confused on the difference between the technologies. I thought V-TEC had two lobes (one vtec, one not...ya know...when the vtec kicks in yo) and the cam was shifted via a solenoid? If I'm reading this correctly it's just the phase of the cam itself that changes, but it's the same lobes doing the work?

Yeah, VTEC does have two separate lobes(three if you count the fact that VTEC is only used on their 4 valve per cylinder motors). There are three rocker arms, primary, mid, and secondary. The VTEC is always pushing on the mid rocker arm, which has a lost motion assembly underneath it, to keep the rocker arm loaded. The primary and secondary are connected to a rocker shaft orifice and eventually the valves.

VTEC can only be activated if there is enough oil pressure via a special pressure switch (pretty sure it is around 45-50psi, definitely much higher than what it takes to get the oil warning light on) that is part of the solenoid assembly.

After this check, the solenoid allows oil to flow through the VTEC oil passages, which pushes two pistons that lock the primary and secondary rockers to the mid one, making the valves follow the profile of the mid (VTEC) cam lobe.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Oh, so the cam doesn't linerally along axis shift to move a different set of lobes to the rockers. It's more of activating a different set of rockers that weren't being activated before so that the overall profile of both lobes combined changes the valve timings?

From reading the article it seemed like the actual phase of the cam was being changed which didn't make a whole lot of sense as that would be a mechanical wear nightmare.
 

natto fire

Diamond Member
Jan 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: spidey07
Oh, so the cam doesn't linerally along axis shift to move a different set of lobes to the rockers. It's more of activating a different set of rockers that weren't being activated before so that the overall profile of both lobes combined changes the valve timings?

From reading the article it seemed like the actual phase of the cam was being changed which didn't make a whole lot of sense as that would be a mechanical wear nightmare.

Well VTEC is one of the cam-shifting VVT techs, it changes valve lift and timing, and is either on or off. The newer i-VTEC combines "old-school" VTEC with cam phasing.

The other thing you are thinking of is cam-phasing (Porsche's Vario-cam as well as Nissan's VVT), which is much more variable, but can only alter cam timing, not lift.

 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: Howard
Audi's Valvelift system seems to be the best one out so far.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AQgiAulFcM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7NTP4quytTI

Excellent! Thank you. I thought that's how VTEC worked. The cam, with two sets of lobes is shifted along it's axis. Looks pretty slick and not as mechanically complicated as i once thought.

-edit-
I see. The cam itself isn't shifted, just the lobes. VERY interesting. Makes sense.
 

jagec

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Apr 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Howard
Audi's Valvelift system seems to be the best one out so far.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AQgiAulFcM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7NTP4quytTI

Excellent! Thank you. I thought that's how VTEC worked. The cam, with two sets of lobes is shifted along it's axis. Looks pretty slick and not as mechanically complicated as i once thought.

-edit-
I see. The cam itself isn't shifted, just the lobes. VERY interesting. Makes sense.

That's the Audi system, not the Honda system. IIRC the Honda system doesn't move the lobes at all, it just locks together different rocker arms to transfer the motion of different lobes.

Originally posted by: BouZouki
What about BMW's double VANOS.

They actually managed to eliminate the butterfly, so they get my vote.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: jagec
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: Howard
Audi's Valvelift system seems to be the best one out so far.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=4AQgiAulFcM
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7NTP4quytTI

Excellent! Thank you. I thought that's how VTEC worked. The cam, with two sets of lobes is shifted along it's axis. Looks pretty slick and not as mechanically complicated as i once thought.

-edit-
I see. The cam itself isn't shifted, just the lobes. VERY interesting. Makes sense.

That's the Audi system, not the Honda system. IIRC the Honda system doesn't move the lobes at all, it just locks together different rocker arms to transfer the motion of different lobes.

Originally posted by: BouZouki
What about BMW's double VANOS.

They actually managed to eliminate the butterfly, so they get my vote.

I gotcha that it's Audi's system and that makes perfect sense. For some reason i thought VTEC shifted THE ENTIRE CAMSHAFT AND LOBES. From Captain Howdy's post VTEC makes my understanding of honda's vtec much more clear. Thanks guys.

All different approaches to achieve the same results. From Howard's videos it looks like Audi's system follows the "keep it simple stupid" approach, normally leading to the best results.
 

Fenixgoon

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Jun 30, 2003
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what's up with the ball sitting on top of the spring in the 2nd video? is that for the green cams where the timings are slightly offset from each other?
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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Originally posted by: Fenixgoon
what's up with the ball sitting on top of the spring in the 2nd video? is that for the green cams where the timings are slightly offset from each other?

It's to lock the sliding lobes into place before they need to do work.
 

LTC8K6

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Mar 10, 2004
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How does GM do it on their newer pushrod V6's? Or as they now call them, "cam in block". LZ4,LY7,LZ9...
 

ayabe

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Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Toyota's 1.8-liter engines with cam-shifting, as used in the last Celica GT-S and Lotus's Elise, are notorious for being gutless until they crest 6000 rpm, at which point the secondary cam engages with a violent rush of power.

I can vouch for this. Although in the Elise it's not pushing nearly as much weight around as in the Celica so even below 6000 rpm it is still pretty impressive.

Me too. I actually considered trading in my GSR for a GT-S until I drove one....and I thought my B18C was peaky.
 

Fenixgoon

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Jun 30, 2003
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i really want to buy an engine from a junkyard car just to rip it apart. maybe i'll get around to that some day.
 

imported_Truenofan

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May 6, 2005
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vtec, see sig.
it helps if you stay in the super high rpm ranges but for regular car use i dont see a point in it. dont forget toyotas tvis and i-tvis system. dont know what they've done with that though.
 

overst33r

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Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Truenofan
vtec, see sig.
it helps if you stay in the super high rpm ranges but for regular car use i dont see a point in it. dont forget toyotas tvis and i-tvis system. dont know what they've done with that though.

How can you not see a point in it... that is like saying you don't see a point in variable valve timing itself...
 

imported_Truenofan

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May 6, 2005
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well lets see. you rarely run your car up to redline in stop go traffic. so that means your never getting a chance to let whatever method is used to engage a second set of timing to work. so what is the point then? even if my 6 ports work(kinda like vtec but no valves) they open at 3500rpms. which is very reasonable in regular traffic. tell me then, when do you rev up to whatever rpm it takes to get them to work on a day to day basis. i remember hearing that vtec on hondas only works near the last 1000 or less rpms of the engine. when do you rev it that high? same with some toyota's. i don't want to start a flame war. but for normal day to day driving. nobody really needs a second set of timing for more performance and higher revving engines when you dont really rev them that high to begin with, not unless your racing yourself or something on the street. yes its very handy if you plan on using your car for regular street use and to conduct some type of form of automotive racing. but to have it just to have it, is stupid.
 

spidey07

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Aug 4, 2000
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If you read the article it is explained very clearly. It is for better OVERALL performance - at low and high RPMs. Allowing better performance and fuel economy with smaller motors with better low end torque and broader powerband.
 

ayabe

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Aug 10, 2005
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Originally posted by: Truenofan
well lets see. you rarely run your car up to redline in stop go traffic. so that means your never getting a chance to let whatever method is used to engage a second set of timing to work. so what is the point then? even if my 6 ports work(kinda like vtec but no valves) they open at 3500rpms. which is very reasonable in regular traffic. tell me then, when do you rev up to whatever rpm it takes to get them to work on a day to day basis. i remember hearing that vtec on hondas only works near the last 1000 or less rpms of the engine. when do you rev it that high? same with some toyota's. i don't want to start a flame war. but for normal day to day driving. nobody really needs a second set of timing for more performance and higher revving engines when you dont really rev them that high to begin with, not unless your racing yourself or something on the street. yes its very handy if you plan on using your car for regular street use and to conduct some type of form of automotive racing. but to have it just to have it, is stupid.

In a B18C (Integra GSR motor) the VTEC comes on in stages, beginning at 4400 RPM and coming on full force at around 5800 RPM if memory serves, red line is 8000RPM.

So yeah it's still peaky as hell but there is still a benefit without having to rev all the way up.

 

exdeath

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Jan 29, 2004
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Originally posted by: Truenofan
well lets see. you rarely run your car up to redline in stop go traffic. so that means your never getting a chance to let whatever method is used to engage a second set of timing to work. so what is the point then? even if my 6 ports work(kinda like vtec but no valves) they open at 3500rpms. which is very reasonable in regular traffic. tell me then, when do you rev up to whatever rpm it takes to get them to work on a day to day basis. i remember hearing that vtec on hondas only works near the last 1000 or less rpms of the engine. when do you rev it that high? same with some toyota's. i don't want to start a flame war. but for normal day to day driving. nobody really needs a second set of timing for more performance and higher revving engines when you dont really rev them that high to begin with, not unless your racing yourself or something on the street. yes its very handy if you plan on using your car for regular street use and to conduct some type of form of automotive racing. but to have it just to have it, is stupid.

Well take your pick. You can have your economy cam and not have any passing power, or your power cam and stall every time you time you take off from a light and also dump raw fuel out of your exhaust.

It's really only useful on smaller engines. If you have a bigger engine, you have enough raw power and not really wanting more unless you are en enthusiast and are most likely going to want a big set of cams to maximize it and want the lopey idle for aesthetics. Naturally you'll also have no aspirations for fuel economy, thus don't care about things like VVT.

VVT (variable valve technology, and not timing, which means any aspect of valve control)...

helps to create a very flat torque curve in a smaller multi valve engine that is traditionally peaky and:

a) lacks bottom end torque
b) lacks overall power
c) problem b) and a) worsen each other when you try to tune the cam profile and ultimately you have to comprimise, leaving some power or torque on the table.

As for VTEC it's programmable and not always the last 1000 RPM. You dyno tune the engine with VTEC disabled (by setting the activation point as high or low as possible) and using only the low end cam for the whole RPM range. You do the same with only the high end cam through the whole RPM range. Then you overlay the two dyno charts and where they cross is where you set the VTEC activation RPM.

Contrary to popular belief VTEC was developed for economy, not performance. You can stick a higher performance cam in any engine, but without VVT your cruise and idle fuel economy and emissions will suffer as a result. Something like VTEC allows you to have that high performance cam, which an enthusiast would have anyway regardless, but VVT allows you to keep your fuel economy and emissions while doing so.

It would benefit a bigger engine also, but by it's very nature of being performance oriented, its already optimized for power so VVT won't see much in the way of power, and going from 16 to 18 mpg isn't as big an impact as it is on a car going from 28 mpg to 35 mpg.
 

LTC8K6

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Mar 10, 2004
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GM's blurb on the VVT in their newer pushrod V6 engines, which can hardly be called small and which were introduced when the G6 came out. 3.5,3.6,and 3.9 liter engines.

"For all the advanced systems in the 3.5L V6, perhaps the most significant?certainly the one that has garnered the most attention?is variable valve timing (VVT). GM?s new generation V6s were the first cam-in-block engines with VVT?an accomplishment engineers considered extremely difficult, if not impossible, just a few years ago. The 3.5L?s dual-equal VVT uses a hydraulically operated vane-type cam phaser that turns the camshaft relative to its drive sprocket.

The advantages of cam-in-block VVT are pronounced. The cam phaser changes valve timing on the fly, maximizing engine performance for given demands and conditions. At idle, for example, the cam is at the full advanced position. That allows exceptionally smooth idling. Under other operating demands, the phaser adjusts to deliver optimal valve timing for performance, drivability and fuel economy. At high rpm it might retard timing to maximize airflow through the engine and increase horsepower. At low rpm it advances timing to increase torque. Under a light load (say, casual everyday driving), it can retard timing at all engine speeds to improve fuel economy. Without cam phasing, a cam design must be biased toward one strength or another?high-end horsepower or low-end torque, for example?or profiled at some median level that maximizes neither.
Variable valve timing allows linear delivery of torque, with near-peak levels over a broad rpm range, and high specific output (horsepower per liter of displacement) without sacrificing overall engine response, or drivability. It also provides another effective tool for controlling exhaust emissions. Because it manages valve overlap at optimum levels, it eliminates the need for an Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) system. "
 

overst33r

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Truenofan
well lets see. you rarely run your car up to redline in stop go traffic. so that means your never getting a chance to let whatever method is used to engage a second set of timing to work. so what is the point then? even if my 6 ports work(kinda like vtec but no valves) they open at 3500rpms. which is very reasonable in regular traffic. tell me then, when do you rev up to whatever rpm it takes to get them to work on a day to day basis. i remember hearing that vtec on hondas only works near the last 1000 or less rpms of the engine. when do you rev it that high? same with some toyota's. i don't want to start a flame war. but for normal day to day driving. nobody really needs a second set of timing for more performance and higher revving engines when you dont really rev them that high to begin with, not unless your racing yourself or something on the street. yes its very handy if you plan on using your car for regular street use and to conduct some type of form of automotive racing. but to have it just to have it, is stupid.

because you are assuming it only engages at high rpm, in some cases that is true (5-6k rpm, with a 7-9k redline)

You are not considering the other cam that is optimized for low rpm driving, without it, the car would get horrible gas mileage and performance, as explained by the article.
 

Nyati13

Senior member
Jan 2, 2003
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Originally posted by: mariok2006
Originally posted by: Truenofan
well lets see. you rarely run your car up to redline in stop go traffic. so that means your never getting a chance to let whatever method is used to engage a second set of timing to work. so what is the point then? even if my 6 ports work(kinda like vtec but no valves) they open at 3500rpms. which is very reasonable in regular traffic. tell me then, when do you rev up to whatever rpm it takes to get them to work on a day to day basis. i remember hearing that vtec on hondas only works near the last 1000 or less rpms of the engine. when do you rev it that high? same with some toyota's. i don't want to start a flame war. but for normal day to day driving. nobody really needs a second set of timing for more performance and higher revving engines when you dont really rev them that high to begin with, not unless your racing yourself or something on the street. yes its very handy if you plan on using your car for regular street use and to conduct some type of form of automotive racing. but to have it just to have it, is stupid.

because you are assuming it only engages at high rpm, in some cases that is true (5-6k rpm, with a 7-9k redline)

You are not considering the other cam that is optimized for low rpm driving, without it, the car would get horrible gas mileage and performance, as explained by the article.

He's also assuming that all VVT setups only engage at high RPMs, which is completely false. Subaru runs a mild form of VVT (for better lowend torque) that has it's changeover at 3000 to 3500 RPMs depending on throttle position.