What is it with Iraqis and kidnappings?

[Genesys]

Has anyone else here become intrigued with the current rash of kidnappings in Iraq? I've read reports on 3 Japanese, 8 Russians, something like 7 Americans, 7 Chineese, and some others that I cant recall atm.

What i'm wondering is, what do the kidnappers hope to accomplish? I hear the 3 Japanese got released [someone correct me if im worng]. The Chineese wont care if their people get killed [most likely anyway], the US military will just crackdown in Iraq if the Americans get killed, and I have no idea how the Russians will take their losses [probably blame America].

Anyway, what do you guys think about all the kidnappings?

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Genesys
Has anyone else here become intrigued with the current rash of kidnappings in Iraq? I've read reports on 3 Japanese, 8 Russians, something like 7 Americans, 7 Chineese, and some others that I cant recall atm.

What i'm wondering is, what do the kidnappers hope to accomplish? I hear the 3 Japanese got released [someone correct me if im worng]. The Chineese wont care if their people get killed [most likely anyway], the US military will just crackdown in Iraq if the Americans get killed, and I have no idea how the Russians will take their losses [probably blame America].

Anyway, what do you guys think about all the kidnappings?

Its a classic guerrilla tactic. The insurgents hope that these kidnappings will put political pressure on the leaders at the various countries to pull their troops out. It may work in some cases, it may not.

The reason the Iraqi insurgents are so active right now isn't because they "hate freedom". Nor is it because they want to wage some sort of jihad. Nor is it because they're loyal to Saddam. They want the foreigners with guns out of their country, plain and simple. And they're willing to resort to geurrilla warfare to reach their goal.

 

[beer]

Maybe they'll learn that killing americans means M1A1 guns firing freely into their homes and cities. I mean these guerillas have family, don't they? It'll make em think twice when we demonstrate a resolve to take out any and all targets as necessary.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Its a classic guerrilla tactic. The insurgents hope that these kidnappings will put political pressure on the leaders at the various countries to pull their troops out. It may work in some cases, it may not.

The reason the Iraqi insurgents are so active right now isn't because they "hate freedom". Nor is it because they want to wage some sort of jihad. Nor is it because they're loyal to Saddam. They want the foreigners with guns out of their country, plain and simple. And they're willing to resort to geurrilla warfare to reach their goal.

and they seem to not understand that the US military is there to keep the peace while their new govt is being established. It seems as though they need a little patience [yeaaaah, just a little patience] because soon enough, they'll be off on their own. Without the troops over there, their country would fall flat on its a$$ due to all the internal chaos [political jockying, looting, random/revenge killings, etc] and external chaos [political jockying and external militant forces trying to establish influence in other non-political arenas].

We're there to help, not hinder, and all these kidnappings and militant punks are hindering their progress.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
Its a classic guerrilla tactic. The insurgents hope that these kidnappings will put political pressure on the leaders at the various countries to pull their troops out. It may work in some cases, it may not.

The reason the Iraqi insurgents are so active right now isn't because they "hate freedom". Nor is it because they want to wage some sort of jihad. Nor is it because they're loyal to Saddam. They want the foreigners with guns out of their country, plain and simple. And they're willing to resort to geurrilla warfare to reach their goal.

and they seem to not understand that the US military is there to keep the peace while their new govt is being established. It seems as though they need a little patience [yeaaaah, just a little patience] because soon enough, they'll be off on their own. Without the troops over there, their country would fall flat on its a$$ due to all the internal chaos [political jockying, looting, random/revenge killings, etc] and external chaos [political jockying and external militant forces trying to establish influence in other non-political arenas].

We're there to help, not hinder, and all these kidnappings and militant punks are hindering their progress.

They don't want our help. To truly understand their mentality, you need to put yourself in their shoes.

Here's a thought experiment: Imagine that tomorrow morning an alien race invades our planet. They claim that they just want to make our planet better, but why should we believe them? They easily dismantle our armed forces and overthrow our leaders. Some of us try to organize and fight back, but its futile. We get crushed. We see our friends and neighbors try to rise up and they get killed. All this time, we're being told that our lives will be better. They show us these amazing new technologies they say can help us. Then, more aliens of different races start arriving on our planet. They all have something to sell to us, and tell us how we can help ourselves if we follow what they say. But we just want them to leave our planet because its OURS. We try to fight them off, but they just keep on crushing us, and then they start imposing curfews. They tell us if we leave our houses, we'll be killed, and they mean it. Sure they seem to be nice aliens, because they do treat us with respect when we cooperate, and they even show us how to make better crops and better technology. But they're still on OUR planet.

How would you feel? Would you blindly trust that these aliens really want to make our lives better? Or would you try any tactic you could to get them to leave?

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
They don't want our help. To truly understand their mentality, you need to put yourself in their shoes.

Here's a thought experiment: Imagine that tomorrow morning an alien race invades our planet. They claim that they just want to make our planet better, but why should we believe them? They easily dismantle our armed forces and overthrow our leaders. Some of us try to organize and fight back, but its futile. We get crushed. We see our friends and neighbors try to rise up and they get killed. All this time, we're being told that our lives will be better. They show us these amazing new technologies they say can help us. Then, more aliens of different races start arriving on our planet. They all have something to sell to us, and tell us how we can help ourselves if we follow what they say. But we just want them to leave our planet because its OURS. We try to fight them off, but they just keep on crushing us, and then they start imposing curfews. They tell us if we leave our houses, we'll be killed, and they mean it. Sure they seem to be nice aliens, because they do treat us with respect when we cooperate, and they even show us how to make better crops and better technology. But they're still on OUR planet.

How would you feel? Would you blindly trust that these aliens really want to make our lives better? Or would you try any tactic you could to get them to leave?

Thats kind of different. You forgot to mention that the aliens are there to overthrow a tyrannical dictator who murders his own civilization. You also forgot to mention that the only thing the aliens fight against are those that shoot at them. You also fail to mention that around 10 years ago, there was another war on our planet, and that the invading army was going to overthrow our dictator then, and we even provided support and committed troops to the task, but at the last instant, the invading army left and the tyrant brutally crushed our tiny support force.

Basically, the Iraqis seemed to demonstrate some want to be free of Saddam, and we were willing to provide it, untill the UN said NO! So, Saddam stayed in and crushed his political opponents without mercy. Whats the difference between us wanting to oust Saddam then and now, aside from ~12yrs and far too much partisan politics?

 

[girlgeek]

Plus you've got Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya (please forgive my spelling if I didn't get it right) and a few bully-pulpits telling everyone that we're not there to make their lives better, it's a big lie, and we're only there to steal their oil for Israel. And don't forget Ted Kennedy (!@#!$), telling the unwashed masses it's an election ploy by GWB, that America is almost ready to break and run for cover. They'll try anything to send us over the brink, and after Mogadishu, it's no wonder they are pretty sure it will work. All we need is a few more charred Americans gracing the front page of your local paper, right, Ted?

We've lost almost 600 American heroes over there in the last year. Giving up before the job is done would be like spitting on each and every one of their graves, and on their families and friends, whose pain I can't begin to imagine. :brokenheart:

 

[DaFinn]

Originally posted by: Genesys
Has anyone else here become intrigued with the current rash of kidnappings in Iraq? I've read reports on 3 Japanese, 8 Russians, something like 7 Americans, 7 Chineese, and some others that I cant recall atm.

What i'm wondering is, what do the kidnappers hope to accomplish? I hear the 3 Japanese got released [someone correct me if im worng]. The Chineese wont care if their people get killed [most likely anyway], the US military will just crackdown in Iraq if the Americans get killed, and I have no idea how the Russians will take their losses [probably blame America].

Anyway, what do you guys think about all the kidnappings?

It seems, that the kidnappings are accomplishing something... Russia is also joining the group of nations that have pulled out their civilian workforce, helping to rebuild Iraq. This makes things worse for the average Iraqi people, as the rebuilding of infrastructure comes to a halt. The average people get frustrated as the electricity won't work, water is not running... and they get angry at who??? That's right...

 

[girlgeek]

One more reason why we have to do whatever it takes to get this problem solved. No one's going to help us pull our chestnuts out of the fire, so we'd better be damn sure they don't get there to begin with.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: beer
Maybe they'll learn that killing americans means M1A1 guns firing freely into their homes and cities. I mean these guerillas have family, don't they? It'll make em think twice when we demonstrate a resolve to take out any and all targets as necessary.

So you are saying:

Americans killing Iraqi's = OK
Iraqi's Killing Americans = Kill their families

you get the ten foot tall

 

[conjur]

I just want to know who fed them Cheney's travel itinerary?

The people who were kidnapped were from countries Cheney just visited.

 

[smashp]

The Real Thing Going on in Iraq is just an example Of how Bremer, Yet again screwed the Pooch. Remember him Disbanding the Army, but Letting them Keep their Weapons. WTF?


What do you think Would happen.

This Chaos In Iraq Will Probely "Prevent" the Handover on June 30.

Iraq is on the verge of civil War, The Sooner they hand over the country, The sooner it begins. The Handover will somehow, Someway Be postponed Six months.


Do you Know that after WW2 in Germany and Japan the First thing we made them do is Destroy Their Arms and Ammo.

I would Like To bring that up to all those that cite our Two successes At nation building.

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
They don't want our help. To truly understand their mentality, you need to put yourself in their shoes.

Here's a thought experiment: Imagine that tomorrow morning an alien race invades our planet. They claim that they just want to make our planet better, but why should we believe them? They easily dismantle our armed forces and overthrow our leaders. Some of us try to organize and fight back, but its futile. We get crushed. We see our friends and neighbors try to rise up and they get killed. All this time, we're being told that our lives will be better. They show us these amazing new technologies they say can help us. Then, more aliens of different races start arriving on our planet. They all have something to sell to us, and tell us how we can help ourselves if we follow what they say. But we just want them to leave our planet because its OURS. We try to fight them off, but they just keep on crushing us, and then they start imposing curfews. They tell us if we leave our houses, we'll be killed, and they mean it. Sure they seem to be nice aliens, because they do treat us with respect when we cooperate, and they even show us how to make better crops and better technology. But they're still on OUR planet.

How would you feel? Would you blindly trust that these aliens really want to make our lives better? Or would you try any tactic you could to get them to leave?

Thats kind of different. You forgot to mention that the aliens are there to overthrow a tyrannical dictator who murders his own civilization. You also forgot to mention that the only thing the aliens fight against are those that shoot at them. You also fail to mention that around 10 years ago, there was another war on our planet, and that the invading army was going to overthrow our dictator then, and we even provided support and committed troops to the task, but at the last instant, the invading army left and the tyrant brutally crushed our tiny support force.

Basically, the Iraqis seemed to demonstrate some want to be free of Saddam, and we were willing to provide it, untill the UN said NO! So, Saddam stayed in and crushed his political opponents without mercy. Whats the difference between us wanting to oust Saddam then and now, aside from ~12yrs and far too much partisan politics?

You're missing the little fact that WE ALREADY OUSTED HIM! You're also not realizing simple psychology behind all this. Put simply, people don't like other people fvcking with their shit. Its the same in anywhere. Its one of the founding principles of our country (put more eloquently of course) and its as strong a part of human nature as free will is.

I guess there's no way I can have you see this objectionably. You asked a question, I'm trying to give you the answer, but you refuse to accept it for the same partisan political reasons you complain about.

 

[Genesys]

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
You're missing the little fact that WE ALREADY OUSTED HIM! You're also not realizing simple psychology behind all this. Put simply, people don't like other people fvcking with their shit. Its the same in anywhere. Its one of the founding principles of our country (put more eloquently of course) and its as strong a part of human nature as free will is.

I guess there's no way I can have you see this objectionably. You asked a question, I'm trying to give you the answer, but you refuse to accept it for the same partisan political reasons you complain about.

No, I see where youre coming from, but you DONT see where i'm coming from. They need to exercise patience and trust us. They need to hold their tempers and just go along with it. I know they cannot be naiive enough to think that they could just pick up the pieces of Iraq and start governing themselves right off the bat! They need someone to hold their hand at this stage in the game, show them how its done. But they keep biting at the hand. Remember, we had to occupy 2 countries after WW II, we had to rebuild their infrastructure and government. Im pretty sure the Japanese and Germans had much the same feelings as Iraqis, but hey, they accepted what they got, and now their better off for their trust. The Iraqis just need to settle the fvck down and take a page from history.

 

[smashp]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
You're missing the little fact that WE ALREADY OUSTED HIM! You're also not realizing simple psychology behind all this. Put simply, people don't like other people fvcking with their shit. Its the same in anywhere. Its one of the founding principles of our country (put more eloquently of course) and its as strong a part of human nature as free will is.

I guess there's no way I can have you see this objectionably. You asked a question, I'm trying to give you the answer, but you refuse to accept it for the same partisan political reasons you complain about.

No, I see where youre coming from, but you DONT see where i'm coming from. They need to exercise patience and trust us. They need to hold their tempers and just go along with it. I know they cannot be naiive enough to think that they could just pick up the pieces of Iraq and start governing themselves right off the bat! They need someone to hold their hand at this stage in the game, show them how its done. But they keep biting at the hand. Remember, we had to occupy 2 countries after WW II, we had to rebuild their infrastructure and government. Im pretty sure the Japanese and Germans had much the same feelings as Iraqis, but hey, they accepted what they got, and now their better off for their trust. The Iraqis just need to settle the fvck down and take a page from history.

Except Japan and Germany Were Broken. Losers in a long War, With No economy, No industry. Plus We took away their GUNS. In Iraq, we let them keep them.

 

[lozina]

It's interesting to note these insurgency groups kidnapping people have never been heard of before, suggesting they are completely new. Are our actions creating new terrorists? Cause and effect?

 

[cumhail]

"They'd rather be alive than free, I guess. Poor dumb bastards." - Private Eightball, in Full Metal Jacket

 

[MonstaThrilla]

Originally posted by: Genesys

Originally posted by: MonstaThrilla
You're missing the little fact that WE ALREADY OUSTED HIM! You're also not realizing simple psychology behind all this. Put simply, people don't like other people fvcking with their shit. Its the same in anywhere. Its one of the founding principles of our country (put more eloquently of course) and its as strong a part of human nature as free will is.

I guess there's no way I can have you see this objectionably. You asked a question, I'm trying to give you the answer, but you refuse to accept it for the same partisan political reasons you complain about.

No, I see where youre coming from, but you DONT see where i'm coming from. They need to exercise patience and trust us. They need to hold their tempers and just go along with it. I know they cannot be naiive enough to think that they could just pick up the pieces of Iraq and start governing themselves right off the bat! They need someone to hold their hand at this stage in the game, show them how its done. But they keep biting at the hand. Remember, we had to occupy 2 countries after WW II, we had to rebuild their infrastructure and government. Im pretty sure the Japanese and Germans had much the same feelings as Iraqis, but hey, they accepted what they got, and now their better off for their trust. The Iraqis just need to settle the fvck down and take a page from history.

Then why ask the question "what is it with Iraqis and kidnappings" if you already have your answer? Yes it would be great if they understood the benefits a democracy and free society will bring them, and it would be great if they trusted that we were there for good. But they don't. And I was explaining why they don't.

You can accept it or reject it.

*shrugs*