What is best way to move this switch? (pics)

[Red Squirrel]

pics

The first one is a double, one switch for outside and one for entrance (door is just behind that wall). The wire seems to come from the top so I guess it's fed through the attic.

The second pic is just on the other side of that wall and it's the kitchen light.

I want to combine them all into one spot so the kitchen one is just going to be flipped over, the other two moved accross. It's the two that will be tricky because of the studs. What is best way to do a move like this? Should I rerun from the attic or is there an easier way?

If I have enough slack I can drill through the stud and pass the wire, but I doubt there will be enough.

I also thought of just running new wire from the old spot and cover the old box, but that's not really a good way of doing things and may even be against code.

 

[Paperdoc]

Before you start, check whether all switches are on the same circuit from the breaker panel. You cannot run wires from separate breakers into one device box unless there are special provisions to ensure ALL power is off in that box with only one breaker shut-off action.

Assuming that part is OK, remember it's not good to leave old wiring running through walls into blanked-over boxes. In fact you must not cover over any box containing live wires. So for code purposes as well as ability to reach, I'd start from the attic. Assuming, of course, that the wiring really does come down from the attic inside that wall.

You're also going to need to remove and change the box in the wall. For this, be sure to check what space is available. Assuming they all are fed by one breaker, you are going to end up with a triple box to mount three switches beside each other. So the single kitchen box comes out and has to have the other two boxes ganged onto it. Then the triple box has to be mounted back in the wall, securely fastened (usually to a stud). Check whether there is space between studs for a triple-wide box right where the single box is now. My thinking is that it is close to a wall edge, and stud spacing may be odd there. Otherwise you'd have to move it across the wall to get between two normally-spaced studs.

Moving the cables may be tricky. Technically the cables running down from the attic to each box are supposed to be stapled to the side faces of the studs for mechanical support. If that is the case, just disconnecting the cables and freeing them from the boxes still does not let you pull them back up into the attic. If that is your situation, what you will need to do is prepare four octagon junction boxes in the attic, one for each cable splice you will need to make. (Well, actually (because all the cables are on the same breaker circuit) this probably could all be done in one larger 4" square box, but it would be tight and messy.) Anyway, with stapled non-movable cables in the wall, you will need to cut off a cable in the attic, run it into an octagon box there, then run from that box a new piece of cable from it down to the relocated switch box. You'll need to do this for one power feed (from the panel), and one output line each for the kitchen light and two door lights. All these new shorter cable pieces can be fished through the wall down through new or existing holes in the wall top plate from the attic. Although anchoring them with staples to the studs is best, it is recognized and acceptable (for code purposes) that you can't always do that inside a closed wall.

Of course, if all the existing cables in the wall are NOT stapled down, your job MIGHT be easier. You might be able to pull the cables from the double box up into the attic, then drill new holes and fish them down to the new triple box. Worst case, they are not long enough to reach and you have to splice new pieces of cable onto them in a box in the attic to reach down to the new switch box.

 

[olds]

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn...-3283A-SP-L&lpage=none

 

[Red Squirrel]

Originally posted by: Paperdoc
Before you start, check whether all switches are on the same circuit from the breaker panel. You cannot run wires from separate breakers into one device box unless there are special provisions to ensure ALL power is off in that box with only one breaker shut-off action.

Assuming that part is OK, remember it's not good to leave old wiring running through walls into blanked-over boxes. In fact you must not cover over any box containing live wires. So for code purposes as well as ability to reach, I'd start from the attic. Assuming, of course, that the wiring really does come down from the attic inside that wall.

You're also going to need to remove and change the box in the wall. For this, be sure to check what space is available. Assuming they all are fed by one breaker, you are going to end up with a triple box to mount three switches beside each other. So the single kitchen box comes out and has to have the other two boxes ganged onto it. Then the triple box has to be mounted back in the wall, securely fastened (usually to a stud). Check whether there is space between studs for a triple-wide box right where the single box is now. My thinking is that it is close to a wall edge, and stud spacing may be odd there. Otherwise you'd have to move it across the wall to get between two normally-spaced studs.

Moving the cables may be tricky. Technically the cables running down from the attic to each box are supposed to be stapled to the side faces of the studs for mechanical support. If that is the case, just disconnecting the cables and freeing them from the boxes still does not let you pull them back up into the attic. If that is your situation, what you will need to do is prepare four octagon junction boxes in the attic, one for each cable splice you will need to make. (Well, actually (because all the cables are on the same breaker circuit) this probably could all be done in one larger 4" square box, but it would be tight and messy.) Anyway, with stapled non-movable cables in the wall, you will need to cut off a cable in the attic, run it into an octagon box there, then run from that box a new piece of cable from it down to the relocated switch box. You'll need to do this for one power feed (from the panel), and one output line each for the kitchen light and two door lights. All these new shorter cable pieces can be fished through the wall down through new or existing holes in the wall top plate from the attic. Although anchoring them with staples to the studs is best, it is recognized and acceptable (for code purposes) that you can't always do that inside a closed wall.

Of course, if all the existing cables in the wall are NOT stapled down, your job MIGHT be easier. You might be able to pull the cables from the double box up into the attic, then drill new holes and fish them down to the new triple box. Worst case, they are not long enough to reach and you have to splice new pieces of cable onto them in a box in the attic to reach down to the new switch box.

Thanks, that's pretty much what I had figured, though I never even considered the staples so yeah that old cable may be harder to remove. At worse I may just put holes in the drywall to work in, as I will be plastering and repainting anyway.

Though, are junction boxes in the attic ok by code? I always thought they were not ok. I may not need one though as if I go up there I'll have full access to the entrance light fixture box.

 

[Paperdoc]

I live in Ontario, Canada, so what I know of electrical codes here is probably similar to yours, but I cannot be sure. Certainly here it is acceptable to place junction boxes with closed covers in place in an attic, as long as there is an access route to get into the attic and access the boxes. What is never acceptable is placing boxes in some inaccessible location, like inside a wall that is subsequently covered over and closed.

In looking closely at your photos, I would guess that both switch boxes are wired in a similar manner. Look at the single kitchen box first. I appears there is only one cable entering the box with black, white and bare Ground wires. This is NOT a box with a power supply cable directly from the breaker panel, and a second cable leaving to carry power to the light fixture. Instead, the cable supplying power from the panel goes to the light fixture box. There the Ground goes to the metal box, the white Neutral lead goes to the shell terminal on the light fixture, and the black Hot lead is joined to the black wire in a second cable. This latter goes out to the switch box.

In the switch box the cable that enters probably (not guaranteed) has the black wire as Hot connected to one switch terminal, and a white wire connected to the other terminal. In this case the white is NOT Neutral. It takes on the role of Switched Hot, taking power output from the switch back to the light fixture box. In that box, this white Switched Hot will be connected to the center terminal of the light socket. It MAY be identified by wrapping it in black electrical tape to indicate that it really is not a white Neutral wire.

A similar layout likely is involved in the two-switch box controlling an interior entrance fixture and an exterior fixture. My guess is that the power cable from the panel enters the interior fixture's box. The trick is that the switches control two light fixtures. So the cable from interior fixture box to double switch box contains THREE current carriers - it is a "14/3" cable with white, black, red and bare wires - in which one wire (maybe black, maybe not - you'll have to look) is the Hot feed to the switch box. It will be connected to one terminal each of BOTH switches. The "output" terminals of each switch will be connected to one of the other colors and each is a Switched Hot, one for each controlled light. Back in the interior fixture box, I expect one of these two is connected to the center terminal of that fixture, and the other is spliced to the Hot wire of a third cable that leaves to take power to the exterior fixture box.

Again PROVIDED that both circuits actually do come off the same panel breaker, you can combine the three switches into one triple box with virtually the same wire and cable layout you already have in place. If you have to splice in new pieces of cable, though, just pay attention to which type you need to buy 14/2 or 14/3.

 

[Red Squirrel]

Yes both switches appear to simply be two wires per switch with no direct AC feed and are wired as you describe. The single switch is a 14/2 and the double is 14/3. I have a roll of both types if I do need to rewire.

I'm not sure if they're on the same breaker but I'll find out, if not I will just not combine the circuits, I'll leave them separate. Would make sense that the AC feed is going straight to the socket box then, so that will make it easy enough if I go up in the attic.

I also badly need to label the panel, there is zero labels on there lol.

Anyway thanks for the help, think I'll be good to go from here. My best bet is to probably just rerun from the attic, but I will be getting an electrician just to give me a pointer of how to go about doing it. Good to know that it's ok to have a junction box in the attic though, I was really not sure about that one, but don't think I'll need to set one up.