What If???

the Chase

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2005
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with the "launch" of the 1800Xt. They delayed this whole ball of wax so they could have the top card ready to go at launch. What if they are holding back something with the 1800XT model hoping Nvidia will bite and release their 7800 Ultra and THEN actually release the 1800XT as a higher clocked and/or more piped part(many doubts on the pipes part of it),to beat the 7800Ultra. Maybe just too much coffee and time on my hands...
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
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Originally posted by: the Chase
with the "launch" of the 1800Xt. They delayed this whole ball of wax so they could have the top card ready to go at launch. What if they are holding back something with the 1800XT model hoping Nvidia will bite and release their 7800 Ultra and THEN actually release the 1800XT as a higher clocked and/or more piped part(many doubts on the pipes part of it),to beat the 7800Ultra. Maybe just too much coffee and time on my hands...

Gosh, the possibilities are endless! What if nVidia has their GeForce 98,000,650,XTPEGTXRAGEMAXXIISLICROSSFIREALLINONECARD series waiting to be shipped to stores the minute the Radeon X1800XT is released?!?!!
 

Cooler

Diamond Member
Mar 31, 2005
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Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Originally posted by: the Chase
with the "launch" of the 1800Xt. They delayed this whole ball of wax so they could have the top card ready to go at launch. What if they are holding back something with the 1800XT model hoping Nvidia will bite and release their 7800 Ultra and THEN actually release the 1800XT as a higher clocked and/or more piped part(many doubts on the pipes part of it),to beat the 7800Ultra. Maybe just too much coffee and time on my hands...

Gosh, the possibilities are endless! What if nVidia has their GeForce 98,000,650,XTPEGTXRAGEMAXXIISLICROSSFIREALLINONECARD series waiting to be shipped to stories the minute the Radeon X1800XT is released?!?!!

if they make name like that there is no way people will talk about that card.
 

TStep

Platinum Member
Feb 16, 2003
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unlikely, not when your loosing $$$ financially and just got done spending a ton of R&D $$$ on a late product line.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
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Interesting theory, but while they're busy baiting, the consumers are busy buying Nv cards because the new Ati cards arent available, so they would be loosing big money with such games.
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
61
91
Originally posted by: Cooler
Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Originally posted by: the Chase
with the "launch" of the 1800Xt. They delayed this whole ball of wax so they could have the top card ready to go at launch. What if they are holding back something with the 1800XT model hoping Nvidia will bite and release their 7800 Ultra and THEN actually release the 1800XT as a higher clocked and/or more piped part(many doubts on the pipes part of it),to beat the 7800Ultra. Maybe just too much coffee and time on my hands...

Gosh, the possibilities are endless! What if nVidia has their GeForce 98,000,650,XTPEGTXRAGEMAXXIISLICROSSFIREALLINONECARD series waiting to be shipped to stories the minute the Radeon X1800XT is released?!?!!

if they make name like that there is no way people will talk about that card.

Would be a bit much, wouldn't it? :D

 

jiffylube1024

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2002
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Not to mention they have a responsibility to their shareholders, so they can't really afford to withold that kind of information.
 

DRavisher

Senior member
Aug 3, 2005
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Pretty doubtful yeah. But isn't ATi's product cycle a bit messed up now? If nvidia releases their refresh G72 in jan/feb (about half a year after G70 seems about right) they will again totaly own the high end like they did when they released G70. ATi would have to respond with R580 or take even more losses. But ATi would not have had time to milk R520 for much money then. Seems like a pretty nasty place for ATi to be. Hope they poll through (I have stock), but it seems like nvidia is quite confortable right about now.

Edit: Of course my argument rests on the high end really meaning anything finacially. I know there is much debate about this, but I think it seems pretty likely considering that ATi has increased their low en marketshare lately, and lost lots of money. Nvidia on the other hand has like 70%+ of high end and are making lots of money...
 

Kogan

Golden Member
Mar 21, 2000
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Usually a company's plan would be to launch something that's cheap and far exceeds eveyone's expectations so consumers will stop buying the competitors products and wait for the newly launched products to be available (but then of course they release a lower-clocked version when it's available).

I don't think this is the case with ATI since their new products are overpriced and not particularly spectacular. I think they just want everyone's attention on their top end card since it is a little faster than a GTX (in some games), and they will ask you to pay a premium for that tiny bit of extra speed.

ATI just lost big time this time around. Hopefully they won't have any availablity problems so they'll stay competitive and won't lose much more money..

 

Andres3605

Senior member
Nov 14, 2004
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Originally posted by: TStep
unlikely, not when your loosing $$$ financially and just got done spending a ton of R&D $$$ on a late product line.

But we all forget that the money is in the low and midrange sectors, high end are use as a publicity model with low demand i.e. Mustang cobra
 

eastvillager

Senior member
Mar 27, 2003
519
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What if you're all just a figment of my imagination? THat is probably more likely than what you're proposing.

 

dguy6789

Diamond Member
Dec 9, 2002
8,558
3
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Um, no.

First of all, nVidia has already said that they will NOT release a 7800 Ultra. Just a 512MB 7800GTX.

Second, ATi has had all this time just to make a gpu as fast as the X1800XT, and still they can't produce it well enough to have it launch with the rest of their gpus. What makes you think they are holding back a gpu that is significantly faster when they can't even produce what they say is their flagship in sufficient quantities?
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
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Originally posted by: the Chase
with the "launch" of the 1800Xt. They delayed this whole ball of wax so they could have the top card ready to go at launch. What if they are holding back something with the 1800XT model hoping Nvidia will bite and release their 7800 Ultra and THEN actually release the 1800XT as a higher clocked and/or more piped part(many doubts on the pipes part of it),to beat the 7800Ultra. Maybe just too much coffee and time on my hands...

Nvidia has little reason to release an ultra version. They have a card that is on par with the competition and the price advantage + availability advantage. By the time the X1800XT becomes a factor it will be Dec or later. At that point all ATI can hope for is parity in sales. If the R580 shows up on the scene I would expect a response. But right now against the R520 it isnt needed.
 

fishbits

Senior member
Apr 18, 2005
286
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What if ATI is "baiting" Nvidia?
What if we just bought the best performing graphics cards that fit our budget and are actually purchasable, without giving a rat's a$$ about the name of the company on the GPU?

Staggering, outlandish concept I know.

Last I checked, ATI was a hardware company, not a human being I was in a long-term committed relationship with. Don't remember ATI giving me a thrilling night in the sack, cooking me an awesome dinner, or sending me a greeting card with x's and o's inside. Yet some people keep trying to convince me to be more devoted to this non-existant relationship. "Just wait around for 520. Just wait for Crossfire. Just wait some more for the 520. Just wait for the 1800xt. Just wait for better drivers. Just wait for better OGL support. Just wait for the 580... Just don't give into tempation and see what's going on over at that hussy Nvidia's house!"

Dubya Tee Eff people?!?! Don't you buy stuff based on reality? If I want to get a card now or in the future, it's going to be one that's out that I can see benches and pricing on. I don't lose a minutes sleep about what will be in the next card or generation, much less who's going to be making it. Seriously, this is getting creepy.
 

ArchAngel777

Diamond Member
Dec 24, 2000
5,223
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Originally posted by: fishbits
What if ATI is "baiting" Nvidia?
What if we just bought the best performing graphics cards that fit our budget and are actually purchasable, without giving a rat's a$$ about the name of the company on the GPU?

Staggering, outlandish concept I know.

Last I checked, ATI was a hardware company, not a human being I was in a long-term committed relationship with. Don't remember ATI giving me a thrilling night in the sack, cooking me an awesome dinner, or sending me a greeting card with x's and o's inside. Yet some people keep trying to convince me to be more devoted to this non-existant relationship. "Just wait around for 520. Just wait for Crossfire. Just wait some more for the 520. Just wait for the 1800xt. Just wait for better drivers. Just wait for better OGL support. Just wait for the 580... Just don't give into tempation and see what's going on over at that hussy Nvidia's house!"

Dubya Tee Eff people?!?! Don't you buy stuff based on reality? If I want to get a card now or in the future, it's going to be one that's out that I can see benches and pricing on. I don't lose a minutes sleep about what will be in the next card or generation, much less who's going to be making it. Seriously, this is getting creepy.

Wow, I completely agree.

 

hooflung

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2004
1,190
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unlikely, not when your loosing $$$ financially and just got done spending a ton of R&D $$$ on a late product line.

They didn't spend much R&D. They have been using the same basic arch since the 9700 series. They have been closely following DX3D of DX9a guild lines for features for quite some time with SM3.0 just recently added, which is SM2.0 with better control structures. Memory Arch. that they implemented is a decades old idea that applied to their cross-bar controller.

All in all Nvidia and ATi both could hardly be called innovators. Nvidia is throwing pipes at the problem ( that memory bandwith and cpu are the limiting factors of gaming ) and ATI is tuning their memory routines. All in all the 7 series and X1000's are yawns at best. This X1000 series imho is a waste.
 

hooflung

Golden Member
Dec 31, 2004
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Originally posted by: ArchAngel777
Originally posted by: fishbits
What if ATI is "baiting" Nvidia?
What if we just bought the best performing graphics cards that fit our budget and are actually purchasable, without giving a rat's a$$ about the name of the company on the GPU?

Staggering, outlandish concept I know.

Last I checked, ATI was a hardware company, not a human being I was in a long-term committed relationship with. Don't remember ATI giving me a thrilling night in the sack, cooking me an awesome dinner, or sending me a greeting card with x's and o's inside. Yet some people keep trying to convince me to be more devoted to this non-existant relationship. "Just wait around for 520. Just wait for Crossfire. Just wait some more for the 520. Just wait for the 1800xt. Just wait for better drivers. Just wait for better OGL support. Just wait for the 580... Just don't give into tempation and see what's going on over at that hussy Nvidia's house!"

Dubya Tee Eff people?!?! Don't you buy stuff based on reality? If I want to get a card now or in the future, it's going to be one that's out that I can see benches and pricing on. I don't lose a minutes sleep about what will be in the next card or generation, much less who's going to be making it. Seriously, this is getting creepy.

Wow, I completely agree.


Indeed!
 

the Chase

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2005
1,403
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^^^ Didn't seem that creepy with my head buzzing after a whole pot of coffee-but now with the lights off in this dark, quiet, basement.......

But seriously-posted this on a lark and everyone here has good reasons as to why there is no way- a lot of people here have a very good business sense!
 

TStep

Platinum Member
Feb 16, 2003
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Originally posted by: Andres3605
Originally posted by: TStep
unlikely, not when your loosing $$$ financially and just got done spending a ton of R&D $$$ on a late product line.

But we all forget that the money is in the low and midrange sectors, high end are use as a publicity model with low demand i.e. Mustang cobra
Absolutely, I agree with that, but that has no bearing on the following:
-sales may be there, but at lower margins
-availability across the board is 6-8 months out of cycle, for all classes of card
-gen to gen comparison is: high end equal, mid and low favoring nVidia
-6 month delay plus millions of tapeouts, unanticipated
-coming off of a fair showing against 6800 series, but availablity was an issue there
-just moved to 90nm who everyone had problems with
-working on XBox, so that has got to be costing a ton in R&D

Now, throw all the other factors away and remember business is business. Cost v. Revenue, plain and simple. ATI, responsible to shareholders, which has the sole purpose for selling widgets to increase the bottom line. Investors are not interested in playing cat-and-mouse to lose months worth of sales.

If you are two product generations ahead of the competition, and make the financial decision to slow down R&D thereby saving money or milking your current line for additional $$$/unit sold right up to the point of your competion's release of a comparable product, yes it feasible ATI is holding back.

ATI is losing money, scrambling to make product available, moving there line across a known 90nm hurdle, having to provide a future XBox product to a monster that will not play nice if ATI does not deliver, and only matching a product line already available for 6 months now. You decide.


 

TStep

Platinum Member
Feb 16, 2003
2,460
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Originally posted by: hooflung
unlikely, not when your loosing $$$ financially and just got done spending a ton of R&D $$$ on a late product line.

They didn't spend much R&D. They have been using the same basic arch since the 9700 series. They have been closely following DX3D of DX9a guild lines for features for quite some time with SM3.0 just recently added, which is SM2.0 with better control structures. Memory Arch. that they implemented is a decades old idea that applied to their cross-bar controller.

All in all Nvidia and ATi both could hardly be called innovators. Nvidia is throwing pipes at the problem ( that memory bandwith and cpu are the limiting factors of gaming ) and ATI is tuning their memory routines. All in all the 7 series and X1000's are yawns at best. This X1000 series imho is a waste.
-ATI has had to deal with the 90nm hurdle that historically has caused some problems (IBM, Intel)
-ATI will have to financially deal with MS over tremendous lost profits if they don't deliver

I'm not in that business, so I can only speculate on the complexity of those tasks, but I guarantee it has/will continue to take a few pennies worth of R&D.

 

fishbits

Senior member
Apr 18, 2005
286
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Bah, don't take it personally the Chase. I'm just beyond fed up after this round of fanboyism and the ugly stupidness (and stupid ugliness) it's brought out in so many people. People swallowing and regurgitating pure BS. Rumors, lies, attacks etc, all because, well, "Red has to beat Green!!!!!" or the other way around. Crazy, when everyone knows that gfx cards will only continue to get better and we'll be able to chose the best among them (within our budgets) for ourselves.

Anyhow, your idea was interesting, I'm just at the point where I don't want to hear another word about "Yeah, but in the future...!" because the fanbois have abused the concept so much it's ruined the fun of goodnatured reality-based geeky speculation. And ATI, to their discredit, have encouraged this. However were positions reversed, can picture Nvidia having done the same thing. "Spread the word, my fanboi minions! Believe that the Savior Chip is coming sooooooon!" Show me the benches, the availability and the price, or STFU :p
 

Topweasel

Diamond Member
Oct 19, 2000
5,437
1,659
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Originally posted by: fishbits
What if ATI is "baiting" Nvidia?
What if we just bought the best performing graphics cards that fit our budget and are actually purchasable, without giving a rat's a$$ about the name of the company on the GPU?

Staggering, outlandish concept I know.

Last I checked, ATI was a hardware company, not a human being I was in a long-term committed relationship with. Don't remember ATI giving me a thrilling night in the sack, cooking me an awesome dinner, or sending me a greeting card with x's and o's inside. Yet some people keep trying to convince me to be more devoted to this non-existant relationship. "Just wait around for 520. Just wait for Crossfire. Just wait some more for the 520. Just wait for the 1800xt. Just wait for better drivers. Just wait for better OGL support. Just wait for the 580... Just don't give into tempation and see what's going on over at that hussy Nvidia's house!"

Dubya Tee Eff people?!?! Don't you buy stuff based on reality? If I want to get a card now or in the future, it's going to be one that's out that I can see benches and pricing on. I don't lose a minutes sleep about what will be in the next card or generation, much less who's going to be making it. Seriously, this is getting creepy.

Wait... so I am the only one to get a Birthday card with X's and O's from ATI? Now I feal special.