What if Trump finds a way to fire Mueller? (legal)

omega3

Senior member
Feb 19, 2015
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In the (unlikely) event Trump would find a way to fire Mueller, what legal measures can Mueller take to protect what he has already investigated? Isn't it so that the district attorney of New York has already been informed by Mueller and they are doing a parallel investigation just in case Trump could stop Mueller?

So I am not talking politics. I am asking what legal steps Mueller can take to protect what he has already found.
 

Yakk

Golden Member
May 28, 2016
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Hmm I'd say it's not in Trump's best interest to have Mueller directly fired and have one or more departments instantly double down on their efforts to target him.
 

tweaker2

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
14,475
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Trump has already got obstruction of justice toe tags and headstone made up for him so he'd have to do it like he does his money laundering services for Putin and his fellow Kremlin oligarchs, or maybe a simple multi-shell corp. three card monte style of firing Mueller will do.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Well, through his lawyer he has tried to limit the scope of the investigation and so far that hasn't been any problem from what I know.

The thing is, the charges brought already includes issues that Trump's lawyer has said are beyond the scope of the investigation so what will be done now remains to be seen.

However, having his lawyer threaten Mueller into limiting the scope of the investigation is tampering from the get go so ... But while I'm sure MANY Americans actually do care, nothing will be done about it.
 

J.Wilkins

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Jun 5, 2017
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It would be the end of his presidency.

LOL, no. It would be the continuence of his presidency just like when he fired Comey for looking into connections between his staff and the Russians.

The man fancies himself king of the world and you'd be surprised of how many that want him to have that title.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
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I hope he does try, that'll get him out quicker, but then we are talking about republicans. They're in a tough spot, they need Trump's base for the midterms, but the writing is starting to appear on the wall.
 

UglyCasanova

Lifer
Mar 25, 2001
19,275
1,361
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LOL, no. It would be the continuence of his presidency just like when he fired Comey for looking into connections between his staff and the Russians.

The man fancies himself king of the world and you'd be surprised of how many that want him to have that title.

Firing Comey is what got him into the mess. Firing Mueller would end him.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Firing Comey is what got him into the mess. Firing Mueller would end him.

The man got elected after cheating on three wives and on tape saying that he enjoys sexually harassing women, if he DOESN'T fire the cuck he'll be in trouble but if he does, he'll be golden.

He'll just say that it was needed for the security of the state and that people are saying that Mueller was a Hillary plant and every single one of his believers will absolutely love it.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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I hope he does try, that'll get him out quicker, but then we are talking about republicans. They're in a tough spot, they need Trump's base for the midterms, but the writing is starting to appear on the wall.

No it won't, why would it? Nothing he has done thus far has even made his supporters flinch or brought his admin under any form of serious questioning.

Don't you know "people are saying, they are talking, Mueller is a Hillary stooge"...
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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The man got elected after cheating on three wives and on tape saying that he enjoys sexually harassing women, if he DOESN'T fire the cuck he'll be in trouble but if he does, he'll be golden.

He'll just say that it was needed for the security of the state and that people are saying that Mueller was a Hillary plant and every single one of his believers will absolutely love it.


Our political system is complex but it has advantages at times. In this case if Mueller were let go then other agencies would kick in over which Trump has no control. I would bet that Mueller is working not only from the perspective of Federal law but in concert with states where crimes may have been committed, sharing between States and his office. In the case of NY there is little doubt that it would be followed up on.

There's no escape.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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Firing Comey is what got him into the mess. Firing Mueller would end him.

End him how exactly? That would require a sufficient number of republicans in the House and Senate to first impeach him, then throw him out of office. While there might be a tipping point where that could happen, we're certainly nowhere near it now and I don't see how you can be so convinced that firing Mueller will be it.
 

J.Wilkins

Platinum Member
Jun 5, 2017
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Our political system is complex but it has advantages at times. In this case if Mueller were let go then other agencies would kick in over which Trump has no control. I would bet that Mueller is working not only from the perspective of Federal law but in concert with states where crimes may have been committed, sharing between States and his office. In the case of NY there is little doubt that it would be followed up on.

There's no escape.

You do realize that Trumps lawyer has already established the scope of the investigation and what can and cannot be examined and has forwarded that information, right?

I think Mueller will go beyond that scope, get fired and not a god damn thing will come of this.

I'm absolutely certain that the states cannot make a case against Trump. He's basically bulletproof.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
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You do realize that Trumps lawyer has already established the scope of the investigation and what can and cannot be examined and has forwarded that information, right?

I think Mueller will go beyond that scope, get fired and not a god damn thing will come of this.

I'm absolutely certain that the states cannot make a case against Trump. He's basically bulletproof.

Not in NY he hasn't. Any shared information can be used for any legal purpose in the individual States. If Trump broke the law they can judge him guilty and present all evidence against him as they see fit. I assure you that the NY Justice system would very much like to do so.

Let's go with NY as the example since that's where there are many ties to Trump. If he committed fraud, he's liable. If he cheated on tax he's on the hook (we have our own taxes too). Anything that is a crime in NY that has been committed by himself or by his partners or business is fair game. NY cannot impeach a President, nor try him on Federal matters. That does not mean he cannot be tried once out of office for anything which isn't a Federal matter. NY can try him and toss away the key if the crime and evidence so warrants. He can't pardon, order, threaten his way out of any of that.

As a hypothetical let's say that contrary to state law Trump had illegal dealings with whomever and in the course of discovery it was found that Russia was complicit in aiding Trump in the situation. NY can't try Trump but they sure can be published on the front page of every news outlet. Now Trump has been found legal grounds for the arrest and trial of Trump. Since he's a sitting President a state can't touch him until after and then they can flay him alive if the law permits, which it doesn't of course.

Now back to the Feds. Trump can still be brought up on Federal charges related to NY discovery, he would have been exposed as a wanted criminal, and the basis for charges laid.

I'm thinking even the Republicans aren't going to have much choice here and if he does survive he can serve out his next "term" in jail with nothing for it.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,188
14,090
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Would more than likely happen.

Since re-electoon is the only thing that matters to the GOP in Congress, not impeaching Trump would have to be a political liability or they won't do it. Trump only lost 2 points of approval when he fired Comey. It's going to have to be a lot more than that for them to drop him. They have to worry over being primaried out.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,613
13,296
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Our political system is complex but it has advantages at times. In this case if Mueller were let go then other agencies would kick in over which Trump has no control. I would bet that Mueller is working not only from the perspective of Federal law but in concert with states where crimes may have been committed, sharing between States and his office. In the case of NY there is little doubt that it would be followed up on.

There's no escape.
According to this article that’s pretty accurate. He’s specifically not charging certain crimes, despite indications he has more than enough evidence, so that the NY attorney general can pursue separate charges if Trump pardons them or fires Mueller.


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...trategy_for_outmaneuvering_trump_pardons.html

This keeps pressure on Manfort, and Popa to cooperate.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,200
14,875
136
My guess is that trump will be speaking to Putin about his problem and Putin will be happy to solve it for him just like Putin solves all his problems with political opponents.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
110,511
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You do realize that Trumps lawyer has already established the scope of the investigation and what can and cannot be examined and has forwarded that information, right?

I think Mueller will go beyond that scope, get fired and not a god damn thing will come of this.

I'm absolutely certain that the states cannot make a case against Trump. He's basically bulletproof.

No lawyer and certainly not Trump's lawyers can tell the FBI or special counsel what they can or can not investigate wrg to federal and state crimes. They can posture all they want, but it meaningless in the real world. Let the Trump fluffers mew all they want about the constitution that they clearly don't understand and MAGA and all that noise.
 

Sunburn74

Diamond Member
Oct 5, 2009
5,025
2,593
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But while I'm sure MANY Americans actually do care, nothing will be done about it.
Actually I suspect there'd be rioting in the streets.

Remember the response to a 3 month travel ban? Or the response to trump being elected at all. I think doing something overtly criminal would result in quite a backlash and would also pretty much gift the Democrats the senate and house in the upcoming election.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,047
12,715
136
well, the more he fcks up the more its on the backs of the repubs that dont stand up to him/impeach.. I imagine that midterms will be hell either way but more hell with Trump at the helm... now they gonna foo tax reform as well and after that what use do they have for him? He has delivered absolutly nothing.. thats not true he has deliverede alot of negative.. After failed tax reform theyre going for removal one way or the other to save face come midterm.
Or so I predict :)
 
Jul 9, 2009
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https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/03/could-trump-fire-mueller-its-complicated-215453

"
Can Trump fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller directly?


Probably not, although some disagree.

So who can? Department of Justice regulations make clear that Mueller may be fired by the attorney general only for “good cause.” Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who serves as the acting attorney general for Mueller-related issues due to Jeff Sessions’ recusal, has made clear in congressional testimony that he’s seen nothing of the sort.

If Sessions is replaced as attorney general, then his successor would not be recused, and could either gin up good cause to fire Mueller or (more likely) rescind the good-cause requirement and then terminate him.

Various senators have publicly warned Trump not to fire Sessions, which suggests that if he’s inclined to do so, he’d prefer a method that lets him sidestep the Senate.

If Trump fires Sessions, can he install a replacement without going through the Senate confirmation process?

Almost definitely.
While many (including me) have fretted about the possibility of a recess appointment, that door is likely to shut, even though the Senate is expected to break on Thursday for its August vacation. Under the Constitution, “The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.” In other words, if the Senate skips town, he doesn’t need their vote, and the new person would serve until the end of the next congressional session, i.e. the end of 2018.

In recent years, however, the Senate has tried to clamp down on attempts to sidestep its authority through recess appointments. Starting in 2007, the Senate began convening “pro forma sessions” during what would otherwise be a recess. No actual work transpired at these sessions, just a quick gavel-in and gavel-out. President Barack Obama tried to call the Senate’s bluff by making recess appointments during these times, on the theory that a recess interspersed with meaningless kabuki is still a recess. The Supreme Court disagreed, and invalidated those recess appointments in 2014. The court held that it’s for the Senate to decide what is and isn’t a recess, and that even if it walks and talks like a duck, the Senate can still call it a chicken.
....................

Of course the left would be really angry and he'd get bad press.
 
  • Like
Reactions: VirtualLarry
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
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https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/08/03/could-trump-fire-mueller-its-complicated-215453

"
Can Trump fire Special Counsel Robert Mueller directly?


Probably not, although some disagree.

So who can? Department of Justice regulations make clear that Mueller may be fired by the attorney general only for “good cause.” Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein, who serves as the acting attorney general for Mueller-related issues due to Jeff Sessions’ recusal, has made clear in congressional testimony that he’s seen nothing of the sort.

If Sessions is replaced as attorney general, then his successor would not be recused, and could either gin up good cause to fire Mueller or (more likely) rescind the good-cause requirement and then terminate him.

Various senators have publicly warned Trump not to fire Sessions, which suggests that if he’s inclined to do so, he’d prefer a method that lets him sidestep the Senate.

If Trump fires Sessions, can he install a replacement without going through the Senate confirmation process?

Almost definitely.
While many (including me) have fretted about the possibility of a recess appointment, that door is likely to shut, even though the Senate is expected to break on Thursday for its August vacation. Under the Constitution, “The President shall have Power to fill up all Vacancies that may happen during the Recess of the Senate, by granting Commissions which shall expire at the End of their next Session.” In other words, if the Senate skips town, he doesn’t need their vote, and the new person would serve until the end of the next congressional session, i.e. the end of 2018.

In recent years, however, the Senate has tried to clamp down on attempts to sidestep its authority through recess appointments. Starting in 2007, the Senate began convening “pro forma sessions” during what would otherwise be a recess. No actual work transpired at these sessions, just a quick gavel-in and gavel-out. President Barack Obama tried to call the Senate’s bluff by making recess appointments during these times, on the theory that a recess interspersed with meaningless kabuki is still a recess. The Supreme Court disagreed, and invalidated those recess appointments in 2014. The court held that it’s for the Senate to decide what is and isn’t a recess, and that even if it walks and talks like a duck, the Senate can still call it a chicken.
....................

Of course the left would be really angry and he'd get bad press.

fascista