what if Sega had patented the idea of using off the shelf components?

Anarchist420

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iirc, the genesis and dreamcast were all off-the-shelf components and the Saturn was mostly off-the-shelf components (i would guess the SCU and the VDPs were custom).

anyway, i was asking because both microsoft and sony are copying sega by not using any custom processors.

so i guess ip wouldve lead to more innovation if sega had patented the idea of using off the shelf components although i still favor abolition of ip.

unfortunately, sega was always better at picking parts... the genesis and saturn aged damn **cking well and the dreamcast wasnt even inferior to its primary competitor.

all of that said, i have to laugh at sony and nintendo for pissing away money on R&D when the Super NES was two years younger and wasnt superior to the genesis overall and when the Dreamcast was almost 2 years older than and not inferior to the ps2.
 

Rakehellion

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all of that said, i have to laugh at sony and nintendo for pissing away money on R&D when the Super NES was two years younger and wasnt superior to the genesis overall and when the Dreamcast was almost 2 years older than and not inferior to the ps2.

The Dreamcast was pretty inferior to the PS2 graphically and the SNES was ahead of the Genesis. And while you're laughing Sony and Nintendo, they're laughing all the way to the bank.
 

Newbian

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all of that said, i have to laugh at sony and nintendo for pissing away money on R&D when the Super NES was two years younger and wasnt superior to the genesis overall and when the Dreamcast was almost 2 years older than and not inferior to the ps2.

Too bad we saw who got the last laugh. ;)

Granted I was never a fan of sega except for the game gear and dreamcast.
 

Anarchist420

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The Dreamcast was pretty inferior to the PS2 graphically and the SNES was ahead of the Genesis.
i dont know about all that now. the dreamcast had superior textures.

ps2 didnt have an audio controller like the DC did and the audio processor of the former was inferior to that of the latter. the genesis had much deeper backgrounds with more scrolling and probably larger sprites while the super nes had mode 7, transparency, and more colors. and the super nes typically ran at a lower res than the genesis typically did. the super nes had a faster audio subsystem and faster graphics co-processors while the genesis had a superior cpu... so they were a draw and most people think the super nes had better graphics simply because the colors are more obvious than the scrolling and background depth.

the genesis and super nes were different to each other in audio, with neither one objectively sounding better than the other... the genesis had FM channels, the super nes had PCM.
 

exdeath

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No. Snes had better everything. 4 hardware layers vs 2, more and bigger sprites 64 vs 128 IIRC, etc. SNES dwarfed Genesis in everything, and the processor clock they made a big deal out of was meaningless because the dedicated ASICs did all the important work.

Genesis only had 2 layers, the "depth" you refer to was extensive use of HDMA effects to scroll the background per scanline, something the SNES did as well (the pseudo 3D ground plane in Street Fighter II is identical in effect to the grass background in Sonic 2, an HDMA table with scroll values sent per scanline)

Oh Genesis ran at 320 dots instead of 256, that's about all it had over SNES. SNES could do 512 x 448 but it was seldom used and severely restricted colors and backgrounds due to video memory and timing constraints.

Where SNES obliterated Genesis and made it look primitive was audio and color. 256-512 colors vs 64, and it was actually thousands of colors in practice due to SNES color addition and subtraction (layer blending) and the SNES PCM sampler was way ahead of its time.
 
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exdeath

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The Dreamcast was pretty inferior to the PS2 graphically and the SNES was ahead of the Genesis. And while you're laughing Sony and Nintendo, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

Dreamcast had superior texturing just because 16MB VRAM vs PS2s 4MB VRAM.

PS2 games have a distinct banded and dithered dull 8 bit look to them due to VRAM constraints while Dreamcast was more vibrant and colorful.

Keep in mind 640 x 480 double buffered plus Z is 2-3MB alone and Dreamcast doesnt need a Z buffer.
 
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Subyman

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You can't patent something that broad. "A system that uses components from other manufactures" would encompass almost anything made.
 

Rakehellion

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I'll have to get a license from Sega if I want to go to Home Depot and buy parts to build an outhouse. They own the rights to making things from other things!
 

mmntech

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No. Snes had better everything.

True, but the Genesis came out two years before the SNES. Which at the time was an eternity hardware wise. Despite the fierce console war, I like to think the two were entirely different beasts.

The Genesis was primarily designed to play Sega's hugely popular arcade titles at home. So it was built using the same hardware, the Motorola 68000, which was already several years old even then. Sega mostly focused on arcade type games pretty much right up until 1990 when the SNES launched. Which is what prompted them to create Sonic the Hedgehog. Yeah, they had Alex Kidd prior to then but I think he was too Japanese for American audiences to really latch on to.

I think it really boiled down to the games though. Genesis had some outstanding titles. So did the SNES. It was a very good generation due to that competition.

The Saturn was where things really fell apart. It was graphically inferior to the PS1 despite the two coming out at around the same time. The Saturn was also notoriously difficult to program for. I don't think I knew a single person growing up that had one.

The Dreamcast was a solid console for sure. However, I get the feeling that Sega execs were already discussing getting out of the hardware business throughout its design process. So it was a last attempt to see if they could repeat the success of the Genesis and beat Sony at their game. The console didn't meet early sales expectations, which is why they were so quick to discontinue it. Piracy was a big contributing factor but I don't think that's ultimately what killed it. As we saw with the DS, a console can still thrive with high piracy rates. The Dreamcast never had much third party support, and first party support was fairly weak. The PS2's ace in the hole was also DVD playback. Something that I think got it into a lot of living rooms.
 

Exophase

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Apr 19, 2012
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Dreamcast most certainly did not use off the shelf parts exclusively. I guess that nonsense is getting repeated simply because they used a standard CD-ROM drive to implement GD-ROM.
 

exdeath

Lifer
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Well 68000 > 65816 for sure on paper, but neither system was fast enough or had enough RAM for any kind of software driven effects, so with both systems limited by what their dedicated ASICs could do, processing power was largely irrelevant.

The irony with SNES is the SPC700 programmable audio DSP had a better instruction set and was more powerful than the 65816 main CPU :awe:
 

exdeath

Lifer
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Damn, exdeath, you know your shit!

I've programmed on NES, SNES, PS2, Dreamcast, GameCube, and GBA in assembly with no libraries or SDKs for fun :awe:

Was writing a VU1 accelerated Open GL miniport on PS2 but had to drop it when I went back to school.
 
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Wreckem

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The Dreamcast was pretty inferior to the PS2 graphically and the SNES was ahead of the Genesis. And while you're laughing Sony and Nintendo, they're laughing all the way to the bank.

I dont know.

Sony took a massive financial hit with the PS3.

Nintendo has/is taking a hit with the WiiU and the WiiU's days could be numbered if it has a second dismal xmas season. Fortunately for them it is unlikely that either will have two failures in a row like Sega.

As someone who had a Saturn, it was utter garbage and the reason why I skipped the Dreamcast.
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
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Didn't stop them from trying. Blast processing makes it almost playable. :)

Lol the CPUs on both systems were useless and basically just glorified hole stuffers that shoved register updates to the graphics and sound ASICs and read controller status.

Genesis could spare a lot more CPU time between vblanks for AI and path finding I guess , probably why sports games were much better on Genesis. That's the only pure CPU software function that is really possible on those systems and SNES definitely struggled with having enough time between updates for game logic, esp with HDMA taking the bus and blocking the cacheless CPU every scanline if enabled.

Neither system was fast enough to completely reload the entire playfield in one vblank to put things into perspective. At most you updated a few columns and scrolled. I can't say for sure on Genesis but SNES you would use up all you vblank time updating maybe 1/3 of the name table (tile map) and still not have done anything else. Typically you do all you game logic and controller polling on vdraw, wait for vblank, then upload 256 bytes of sprite OAM, one or two columns of name table, send sound play lists, and that's it for vblank usually.

I'm going out of memory with NES being my most recent experience so could be remembering wrong. I know NES is slow as hell. If you remember games like Dragon Warrior that did the little animated swirl or black checkerboard wipe/fade to draw and erase dialog boxes or giant monsters (using bg tiles not sprites) over multiple frames its because the CPU wasn't fast enough to update that much of the name table in a single vblank.
 
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Zodiark1593

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Oct 21, 2012
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I've programmed on NES, SNES, PS2, Dreamcast, GameCube, and GBA in assembly with no libraries or SDKs for fun :awe:

Was writing a VU1 accelerated Open GL miniport on PS2 but had to drop it when I went back to school.
Looking at the PS2 specs, I can imagine programming for that thing was quite the nightmare.

Soo, if Sega were able to put through such a patent, anything using memory and storage chips would be royalties paid to Sega. :whiste:
 

exdeath

Lifer
Jan 29, 2004
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Looking at the PS2 specs, I can imagine programming for that thing was quite the nightmare.

Soo, if Sega were able to put through such a patent, anything using memory and storage chips would be royalties paid to Sega. :whiste:

It was fun as hell for someone like me. I absolutely enjoyed the challenge of keeping the DMAC packets going from pipe to pipe without stalls. Had to tripple buffer the VU1s 64k (?) so that the GS could read ready to render vertex data, VU could process the current data packet in place or have enough room for src and dest, then a third section allocated fir incoming DMA for the next packet of data. All happens concurrently in a heavily pipelined organization. The packet size and workload had to be experimented with such that by the time the current incoming DMA completed and it kicked off a VU1 execute on it it would stall for minimal time because GS would have JUST finished, as would the VU1 program currently running to xgkick another GS draw just in time, and go idle to accept the next VU1 execute request on the new data, and the stalled DMA would start uploading the next packet again to the new floating destination buffer. It was all about avoiding stalls just in time.

Btw EE (the R5900 MIPS main CPU) and VU0 were both idle and free to do their own thing simultaneously because the entire chain of events I just described is commanded entirely by the very intelligent DMA controller. You chain together packets with DMA headers and once you kick it off, the DMA just hops from DMA header to DMA header however many are chained, until its all done. So powerful. DMAC ruled the show, the CPU was just a resource. You could build an entire frame in sorted draw order in a DMA display list, including synchronized texture swaps and VU1 program changes and constants uploads all at once, and just send it off, meanwhile EE and VU0 are doing AI and physics and prepairing the next display list.

Then throw texture synchronization into the mix which bypassed VIF1 and went straight to GIF in parallel synchronized with dependent geometry by tags that stalled the VIF if the texture upload at the GIF wasn't completed by the time that geometry stream came up to bat.

Optimally you allocated remaining video memory for two textures: the one currently rendering , and the next one in sorted draw order being uploaded before its needed. PS2 was a streaming architecture, it was MADE to utilize GOBS of bus bandwidth to stream data as needed rather than keep things in memory at all times. And with 1MB of texture memory left after front, rear, and z buffers, you had no choice. If you tried to hoard memory and keep textures resident, you'd have low res 8 bit textures and an idle bus.

It was my favorite system to program for.

The first time you get a transformed, perspective projected clipped triangle on your TV and double check that your code only uploaded to VIF/VU1 and you didn't touch GS directly or perform ANY geometry processing on EE and confirm your VU1 transform and clip program is working, its straight up orgasmic :awe:

And VU programming in and of itself with its dual side by side scalar and SIMD instruction pairs executed simultaneously and having to pipeline vertex processing around the 4 cycle load/store and 7 cycle perspective divide was an art all of its own. God I love that system.

I used a DMS3 mod chip to boot from memory card into Pukklink IP loader and had Visual Studio configured to run gcc and send the elf to the IP client on the PC to reboot the PS2 and run the program over the LAN on hitting F5 and print back debug messages to the PC. VU programs I just organized in excel to work out my dual instruction dependencies, paste to notepad and assembled, and just included the output as raw block data in .h files in the main program.
 
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