What if middle-class jobs disappear?

[Jhhnn]

Yeah but we're not there yet and the main issue now is outsourcing of jobs and to a lesser extent the depression of wages by immigrants. That's why the industrialized countries are not growing anymore. Of course, we can do something about it but nobody seems to want to. Instead we're really racing to the bottom with the third world.

Educating everyone to be an IT workers is not the answer. We still need people to build things. If Americans did these things, they would spend their money in the American economy. When we have Chinese do these things, the money rarely comes back to the US economy.

Thse aren't the issues at all, other than peripherally. The issue is that we've failed to demand fair compensation for job loss via offshoring & automation from our capitalists. When we should have demanded higher taxes for the privilege of doing that, we cut top tier taxes instead. When we should have been spending that money on more socialism- medicine, education, child care & so forth, we borrowed it instead & spent it on the military to protect our Capitalists' offshore interests and to attempt to expand their markets, as in Iraq.

 

[Infohawk]

Thse aren't the issues at all, other than peripherally. The issue is that we've failed to demand fair compensation for job loss via offshoring & automation from our capitalists. When we should have demanded higher taxes for the privilege of doing that, we cut top tier taxes instead. When we should have been spending that money on more socialism- medicine, education, child care & so forth, we borrowed it instead & spent it on the military to protect our Capitalists' offshore interests and to attempt to expand their markets, as in Iraq.

I'm probably making a mistake by indulging you but please tell me exactly what kind of tax you are thinking of. I'm guessing you want to tax American corporations? Guess what you can't tax Chinese corporations doing business in China, regardless of whether Americans own them or not. If you tax their imports then you are advocating trade barriers, which is what I advocate for.

 

[Jhhnn]

I'm probably making a mistake by indulging you but please tell me exactly what kind of tax you are thinking of. I'm guessing you want to tax American corporations? Guess what you can't tax Chinese corporations doing business in China, regardless of whether Americans own them or not. If you tax their imports then you are advocating trade barriers, which is what I advocate for.

Income taxes, to include capital gains & dividends, also estate taxes.

 

[Steeplerot]

Total employment is 100% and that's not possible.


And why not? I could figure out useful work easily for everyone unemployed. Problem is the so-called free market depends on a underclass. What needs to change is Americans warped 18th cemtury view of work itself.

I do not even see why in this age of automation why full employment is even desireable.

Let the highly motivated work, reward them for doing so. Leave the common man to do something worthwhile they enjoy instead of being wage slaves. We all know how unhappy folks just get in the way.

What right wing libertarian just do not get is that most people have lives and no interest in kissing ass, sucking up to a boss who is perfectly happy with replacing you with someone who kisses ass better and accepts lower pay longer hours, they work so they do not starve. This is not economic freedom, you have no choice of opting out. It is what was known since the industrial revoloution as chattel slavery. In other words, serfdom with a more palatable face. The "freedom" to buy into a explotitative system or else that everyone knows is gamed in the wealthys favor or die on the streets is not freedom nor liberty. If you ever have to work to survive you will rethink your childish positions quickly. Or become another paranoid asshole bitter overworked thinking everyone is out to get you instead of looking at the big picturew, the trap your average conservative falls into. This is defeat of the obediant slave accepting of his shitty lot in life. Not a free man living up to their potential.
Sure, you can excuse the system by saying "that's just the way it is" but that has been the excuses for just about everything shitty throughout history until people wake up and take action to improve their lot in life through direct positive action. As some dude said long ago about capitalism: workers have nothing to lose in the face of such dismal options of kiss ass or starve but the very chains they willingly let themselves be burdened by.

Big problem is Americans have been brainwashed by the establishment since birth being told that obsessive wealth accumulation and greed is the default position of humanity, this is not true. People work to survive, playing the one up each other over who has nicer shit is another mindfuck lie put on us like the endless lies of advertising we are bombarded with that tell you dumb stuff like X brand of deodarant or car will make you sexy. Think for yourself, it cannot hurt anything, it may even make the world a bit of a more tolerable place if people did it more often.

Remember, the. General consensus of southern whites afterthe civil ear was that slaves knew nothing but a life of subservience, thus would come right back to the plantations, low and behold the former slaves left in droves and started getting elected to Congress and such to improve their lot. This is the dame arrogant propaganda that capitalists feed us today really. One day they will realize they have far overreached once again and they need us, not the over way around.

 

[Infohawk]

Income taxes, to include capital gains & dividends, also estate taxes.

Yeah, so you just want to redistribute the pie differently and ignore the fact that the pie is shrinking (at best staying constant while the population increases). Why is the pie shrinking? Because Americans are working less and making less money. Why are they working less? Because of outsourcing. Why are they making less? Because of outsourcing and in some cases too much immigration from poor countries. How do you stop outsourcing? Tariffs.

 

[Jhhnn]

Yeah, so you just want to redistribute the pie differently and ignore the fact that the pie is shrinking (at best staying constant while the population increases). Why is the pie shrinking? Because Americans are working less and making less money. Why are they working less? Because of outsourcing. Why are they making less? Because of outsourcing and in some cases too much immigration from poor countries. How do you stop outsourcing? Tariffs.

Try looking past that. Really.

The pie isn't actually shrinking at all. The share of it that goes to working people is just diminishing. We just need to adopt more advanced concepts of ownership & standing to cope with the changes.

Automation & offshoring should mean that people in this country work less, but it doesn't mean we should be poorer as a consequence. We need a new New Deal.

 

[blackangst1]

Try looking past that. Really.

The pie isn't actually shrinking at all. The share of it that goes to working people is just diminishing. We just need to adopt more advanced concepts of ownership & standing to cope with the changes.

Automation & offshoring should mean that people in this country work less, but it doesn't mean we should be poorer as a consequence. We need a new New Deal.

Incorrect. It wasnt just the middle and lower class that lost wealth (not that most middle class have wealth to begin with). I can link alll kinds of articles talking about how much the wealthy have lost since 2008 as well. But, sadly, those types of articles are usually met with "Fuck him he still is rich" so why bother? Infohawk's post is correct. Both about the size of the pie getting smaller and how to solve outsourcing.

 

[Jhhnn]

Incorrect. It wasnt just the middle and lower class that lost wealth (not that most middle class have wealth to begin with). I can link alll kinds of articles talking about how much the wealthy have lost since 2008 as well. But, sadly, those types of articles are usually met with "Fuck him he still is rich" so why bother? Infohawk's post is correct. Both about the size of the pie getting smaller and how to solve outsourcing.

Please. The wealthy have merely lost paper value & income share. It still takes a taxable income of $343K to enter the top 1%, and $1.4M to enter the top .1%. It's not like they've lost their homes, savings, retirements & jobs like a lot of working & middle class families.

The lifestyles of the truly wealthy have been unaffected, because they spend only a small portion of income even living lavish lifestyles.

Put it in perspective, OK?

Truly wealthy people have the luxury of buying low & selling high, and that last part is what they did as both the stock market & real estate market peaked in 2006-2007. They sold & got liquid both for profit taking and in anticipation of the obvious decline. Their incomes behaved the same way in the previous peaks of 1988-1989 & 1999-2000.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The things that have recovered handsomely are corporate profits & cash reserves, which are currently near all time highs.

Notice how income *shares* have shifted inexorably to the top over time. If the income distribution of 1980 had been maintained, the median decile would be earning ~40% more than at present.

Offshoring & automation? We won't reverse that- it's politically impossible, not to mention actually undesirable. What we can change is the *after tax* share of income of the people at the top, use that to serve the population in much the same way that a larger share of income did in the past. Even that won't be possible with Repubs in a blocking position- their initiatives are just more of the same offshoring & tax reductions at the top, shamelessly so.

Yes, that's greater socialism. It's what other first world societies have figured out to be the best of what they'll get from their own financial elites, and we're really no different, just better indoctrinated against positive change for ourselves.

 

[Doppel]

The fact is that technology will eventually render most of us obsolete. It's the domain of sci-fi authors to imagine what such a society would look like. It will be the domain of politicians to actually implement social policy in such a future to meet the needs of the people as best possible. Given the track record of our politicians I'm gonna guess most of us will die hungry and cold.

Agree with this totally.

 

[Franz316]

Agree with this totally.

Agreed, an alternative is that we use technology to create an abundance to raise the quality of life for everyone.

 

[Paul98]

I have been thinking on this for quite a while, and the more I do the more I see how complex this problem actually is. There are some obvious problems, where some common sense solutions could be put into place. The problem is that the average person along with many other are blinded by ideology. Thus they cannot see the problem, because they will see it as right just because that's what their ideology says.