What if God is indeed vengeful and cruel?

[funboy6942]

I have often ponder upon this for I have asked myself if there is a God and he is so wonderful and caring why is it then:

You follow his rules or he punishes you.

He/it supposedly takes away the people you love, you care for that is your family or friends and makes them suffer a cruel and painful death, taking a loved one or 2 or hell in my case everyone I ever cared about leaving me family less other then 2 brothers at a young age all because HE/IT wants them for some other purpose. But puts me, my brothers, and my parents and grandparents through hell killing them and taking them away from us at such young ages when we need parental guidance, or fvck that we need our parents to be part of our lives and have a glimmer hope of a normal childhood.

How can one be so selfish in needing to take and hurt so many people and leaving them to fend for themselves as such a young age? I lost my last parent when I was 20, my younger brother was 17, that means by the time he was 17, not out of high school for him, GOD, took away both our parents and our grandparents and left us with NO one for we didnt have anyone of our mother side for she ran away from her home at her age of 16, and everyone on my stepfathers side (my younger brothers real father) wanted nothing to do with us because our father left them and we were outcasts on his side of the family, so when he died my younger brother and I had NO ONE and fvcking GOD, if there is one, knew this and supposed to be so knowing and godlike and loving in all ways fvcked my brother and I. What Kind of GOD does that?

If you ask me I think it reversed, god is the bad guy and the "devil" is the good. Hell the devil all you hear is you give him your soul and he hooks you up with good sh1t to happen to you, god on the other hand fvcks with you like your his fvcking puppet to kick around and if you dont do what his says to do then he will hurt you, and I have yet to have anything happen in my life to show me GOD is this all nice oh praise me and all your prayers will be answered, so far all I got was the shaft since day one, and since being married have brought my wife and kids down with me.

Anyone I have ever met that has been so in touch with "GOD" and gone to church has been liars and cheats un fvcking real, how can one who says god this and that who is a slut or lies and steals, or fvcks your children can set food on the door way of "god"'s church without bursting into flames in beyond me. And I have yet to meet one person who didnt approach me and say "oh Jason all you need is god and Jesus in your life" do this and that, and then see what they are like out side the church and go "And your in with God and you your doing that, stealing that, fvcking that, cheating on that?" Makes me want to jump on the Jesus bus!

But all I can say is if there is a God or ever was a Jesus I am living prove then that Im its bitch and punching bag I have been fvcked my entire life and nothing screams out and says some supernatural being loves me. No god IMO would put what I have been put through or my family has been put through if one truly does exist.

 

[loic2003]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: loic2003

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: MisterJackson
People who believe in the bible think he can be a vengeful God, no?

He CAN be vengeful at times. Doesn't mean he IS vengeful by nature.

But he's all knowledgable, so knew how things were going to pan out anyway, like the programmer who knows exactly how the code he has written will act. You're destined to hell before you're born.

Well, that's your view. I personally think no one truly knows the future. Not even god, although he has more than enough power to control it to his will.

However, he did give us free will. We can make our own choices in life, and direct our own course to a degree. Only outside events are in god's control.

So he's not all knowledgable? I always figured he was, having created the whole universe and all... It's interesting that a massive part of what he ccreated is a complete mystery to him, it's almost like a massive oversight.

Your god's mentality to me seems like a sick game; like having hamsters (us) walk along a 1 inch wide piece of wood (the righteous path) suspended above boiling water (hell) whilst god has a pea-shooter (temptations he created) that he pelts the unfortunate rodents with as they makes their way across. Hardly the loving feller people make him out to be.

It's a bit more complicated then that.

My view is that yes, god created the Universe, and yes he DOES know the future. However, then he introduced us, and gave us free will. This is where the randomness comes in. God cannot alter human thought directly, and we could in theory change the Universe, and are changing it (although a a very small scale). He has more than enough power to bend the future to his will, but he is merciful, and for the time being lets us go about our business.

Let us remember that there was *nothing* before god magically appeared. Nothing whatsoever. God therefore created everything, including free will. He 'programmed' it, thus knows exactly how free will works. It's like having a random function, but because you're all knowledgable, you knw exactly what the random function will return upon every call.
That's the beauty of being all powerful and all knowledgable. It's a great place to be.

Sticking with the hamster analogy, we know which peas will hit the beast, and whether the beast will fall into the giant cooking pot before the events even happen.

Poor hamster.

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: funboy42
I have often ponder upon this for I have asked myself if there is a God and he is so wonderful and caring why is it then:

You follow his rules or he punishes you.

He/it supposedly takes away the people you love, you care for that is your family or friends and makes them suffer a cruel and painful death, taking a loved one or 2 or hell in my case everyone I ever cared about leaving me family less other then 2 brothers at a young age all because HE/IT wants them for some other purpose. But puts me, my brothers, and my parents and grandparents through hell killing them and taking them away from us at such young ages when we need parental guidance, or fvck that we need our parents to be part of our lives and have a glimmer hope of a normal childhood.

How can one be so selfish in needing to take and hurt so many people and leaving them to fend for themselves as such a young age? I lost my last parent when I was 20, my younger brother was 17, that means by the time he was 17, not out of high school for him, GOD, took away both our parents and our grandparents and left us with NO one for we didnt have anyone of our mother side for she ran away from her home at her age of 16, and everyone on my stepfathers side (my younger brothers real father) wanted nothing to do with us because our father left them and we were outcasts on his side of the family, so when he died my younger brother and I had NO ONE and fvcking GOD, if there is one, knew this and supposed to be so knowing and godlike and loving in all ways fvcked my brother and I. What Kind of GOD does that?

If you ask me I think it reversed, god is the bad guy and the "devil" is the good. Hell the devil all you hear is you give him your soul and he hooks you up with good sh1t to happen to you, god on the other hand fvcks with you like your his fvcking puppet to kick around and if you dont do what his says to do then he will hurt you, and I have yet to have anything happen in my life to show me GOD is this all nice oh praise me and all your prayers will be answered, so far all I got was the shaft since day one, and since being married have brought my wife and kids down with me.

Anyone I have ever met that has been so in touch with "GOD" and gone to church has been liars and cheats un fvcking real, how can one who says god this and that who is a slut or lies and steals, or fvcks your children can set food on the door way of "god"'s church without bursting into flames in beyond me. And I have yet to meet one person who didnt approach me and say "oh Jason all you need is god and Jesus in your life" do this and that, and then see what they are like out side the church and go "And your in with God and you your doing that, stealing that, fvcking that, cheating on that?" Makes me want to jump on the Jesus bus!

But all I can say is if there is a God or ever was a Jesus I am living prove then that Im its bitch and punching bag I have been fvcked my entire life and nothing screams out and says some supernatural being loves me. No god IMO would put what I have been put through or my family has been put through if one truly does exist.

So you're Satanic? Or in this case, Luciferic?

I personally believe in God through my values. Although I chose them myself, many of my morals are in line with Christianity. I don't try to justify god's existence or geniuses or anything having to do with our Universe. God created our universe. That's where it ends.

I think my views are summed up effectively in a quote form "Kingdom of Heaven"


"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and by what you decide to do everyday, will make you a good man? or not."
-Hospitaler, Kingdom of Heaven.

I admit I am prone to speculation about god's abilities, but that's it. It's just speculation. I don't truly "believe" anything beyond my values. I do not pray every night, I do not go to Church, but I will be as good as I can be over the course of my life, and I believe that god exists, and I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt. If that isn't enough for god, then I'll gladly go to hell.

 

[Gibsons]

Originally posted by: NuroMancer
Does anyone watch boston legal?

If so. Denny Crane has an interesting perspective.


I can't remember exactly how he says it but, it has something to do with how, if you don't believe and he does exist, your screwed. But, if he doesn't exist, and you believe it doesn't hurt ya

Better known as Pascals wager

 

[funboy6942]

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: funboy42
I have often ponder upon this for I have asked myself if there is a God and he is so wonderful and caring why is it then:

You follow his rules or he punishes you.

He/it supposedly takes away the people you love, you care for that is your family or friends and makes them suffer a cruel and painful death, taking a loved one or 2 or hell in my case everyone I ever cared about leaving me family less other then 2 brothers at a young age all because HE/IT wants them for some other purpose. But puts me, my brothers, and my parents and grandparents through hell killing them and taking them away from us at such young ages when we need parental guidance, or fvck that we need our parents to be part of our lives and have a glimmer hope of a normal childhood.

How can one be so selfish in needing to take and hurt so many people and leaving them to fend for themselves as such a young age? I lost my last parent when I was 20, my younger brother was 17, that means by the time he was 17, not out of high school for him, GOD, took away both our parents and our grandparents and left us with NO one for we didnt have anyone of our mother side for she ran away from her home at her age of 16, and everyone on my stepfathers side (my younger brothers real father) wanted nothing to do with us because our father left them and we were outcasts on his side of the family, so when he died my younger brother and I had NO ONE and fvcking GOD, if there is one, knew this and supposed to be so knowing and godlike and loving in all ways fvcked my brother and I. What Kind of GOD does that?

If you ask me I think it reversed, god is the bad guy and the "devil" is the good. Hell the devil all you hear is you give him your soul and he hooks you up with good sh1t to happen to you, god on the other hand fvcks with you like your his fvcking puppet to kick around and if you dont do what his says to do then he will hurt you, and I have yet to have anything happen in my life to show me GOD is this all nice oh praise me and all your prayers will be answered, so far all I got was the shaft since day one, and since being married have brought my wife and kids down with me.

Anyone I have ever met that has been so in touch with "GOD" and gone to church has been liars and cheats un fvcking real, how can one who says god this and that who is a slut or lies and steals, or fvcks your children can set food on the door way of "god"'s church without bursting into flames in beyond me. And I have yet to meet one person who didnt approach me and say "oh Jason all you need is god and Jesus in your life" do this and that, and then see what they are like out side the church and go "And your in with God and you your doing that, stealing that, fvcking that, cheating on that?" Makes me want to jump on the Jesus bus!

But all I can say is if there is a God or ever was a Jesus I am living prove then that Im its bitch and punching bag I have been fvcked my entire life and nothing screams out and says some supernatural being loves me. No god IMO would put what I have been put through or my family has been put through if one truly does exist.

So you're Satanic? Or in this case, Luciferic?

I personally believe in God through my values. Although I chose them myself, many of my morals are in line with Christianity. I don't try to justify god's existence or geniuses or anything having to do with our Universe. God created our universe. That's where it ends.

I think my views are summed up effectively in a quote form "Kingdom of Heaven"


"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and by what you decide to do everyday, will make you a good man? or not."
-Hospitaler, Kingdom of Heaven.

I admit I am prone to speculation about god's abilities, but that's it. It's just speculation. I don't truly "believe" anything beyond my values. I do not pray every night, I do not go to Church, but I will be as good as I can be over the course of my life, and I believe that god exists, and I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt. If that isn't enough for god, then I'll gladly go to hell.

No I am neither, but I do follow a set of my own rules, I try to be nice to everyone, dont have nothing much nice to say about another person then I try not to say it. I help out with other fellow humans as I can no matter their race or who they are or come from. I try not to judge a book by its cover before making my opinions about a person. I try my damness to be a good person to my wife and kids and to others the best I can, I even gave my home away to another family for free, no strings attached. They were nice enough to help us move and they had a really crappy trailer, despite he delt in drugs the guy was a really nice man and did everything he could to provide for his family, and when I moved out I handed him the title to my home and told him he could have it for nothing and thanks for the help. Anyone else around here give a family a home, granted it was a trailer worth about $8k, still a home, and asked for nothing in return? This is how I am when I have things and I see other people are down and out.

I need no god to tell me to do these things its how I am as a person. Just wish that if there is a god that he would lay off me for a bit and let a little light come into my life for once then to keep hounding me with bad sh1t all the time and making my life a living hell.

 

[Braznor]

Originally posted by: Gibsons

Originally posted by: NuroMancer
Does anyone watch boston legal?

If so. Denny Crane has an interesting perspective.


I can't remember exactly how he says it but, it has something to do with how, if you don't believe and he does exist, your screwed. But, if he doesn't exist, and you believe it doesn't hurt ya

Better known as Pascals wager

That was another thread of mine. It was quite sometime ago and got locked by the mods for unexplained reasons.

Even after the thread was locked, I was getting flames through PM.

 

[theprodigalrebel]

I think pretty much every religion says God is Merciful to those who follow his path and unleashes wrath like no other upon those who don't. And I think it mostly applies in the after-life. If it were true in this life, the world would be run by saints and there would be no hatred or corruption.

It's not about 'cruelty' - it's his brand of justice. He created us and ordered us to do as he told us - and he can do whatever the hell he wants to with us after our time here is down. Basic principle of every religion.

 

[MercenaryForHire]

Everyone would be screwed in the afterlife, but at least the "Heathens" would have had a ball on earth.

- M4H

 

[Gamingphreek]

Why in the world do we keep having these "What if God was _______" threads? If you are going to ask an educated question, I'm sure Atheists and Theists would be happy to answer. These threads; however, are ridiculous!!

For us Christians (I can't speak for anyone else) it is impossible to answer because the question is flawed to begin with. We KNOW that God is not vengeful and cruel, so it would be impossible for us to speculate.

For atheists, they believe that there is no God, so how do you expect them to speculate on something that they believe they know (<Sorry I know full well my religious bias gets in the way here).

Again, enough of these crappy speculating "What if?" questions. If you have a real question, I'm sure anyone here would be more than happy to answer it.

-Kevin

 

[irishScott]

Originally posted by: funboy42

Originally posted by: irishScott

Originally posted by: funboy42
I have often ponder upon this for I have asked myself if there is a God and he is so wonderful and caring why is it then:

You follow his rules or he punishes you.

He/it supposedly takes away the people you love, you care for that is your family or friends and makes them suffer a cruel and painful death, taking a loved one or 2 or hell in my case everyone I ever cared about leaving me family less other then 2 brothers at a young age all because HE/IT wants them for some other purpose. But puts me, my brothers, and my parents and grandparents through hell killing them and taking them away from us at such young ages when we need parental guidance, or fvck that we need our parents to be part of our lives and have a glimmer hope of a normal childhood.

How can one be so selfish in needing to take and hurt so many people and leaving them to fend for themselves as such a young age? I lost my last parent when I was 20, my younger brother was 17, that means by the time he was 17, not out of high school for him, GOD, took away both our parents and our grandparents and left us with NO one for we didnt have anyone of our mother side for she ran away from her home at her age of 16, and everyone on my stepfathers side (my younger brothers real father) wanted nothing to do with us because our father left them and we were outcasts on his side of the family, so when he died my younger brother and I had NO ONE and fvcking GOD, if there is one, knew this and supposed to be so knowing and godlike and loving in all ways fvcked my brother and I. What Kind of GOD does that?

If you ask me I think it reversed, god is the bad guy and the "devil" is the good. Hell the devil all you hear is you give him your soul and he hooks you up with good sh1t to happen to you, god on the other hand fvcks with you like your his fvcking puppet to kick around and if you dont do what his says to do then he will hurt you, and I have yet to have anything happen in my life to show me GOD is this all nice oh praise me and all your prayers will be answered, so far all I got was the shaft since day one, and since being married have brought my wife and kids down with me.

Anyone I have ever met that has been so in touch with "GOD" and gone to church has been liars and cheats un fvcking real, how can one who says god this and that who is a slut or lies and steals, or fvcks your children can set food on the door way of "god"'s church without bursting into flames in beyond me. And I have yet to meet one person who didnt approach me and say "oh Jason all you need is god and Jesus in your life" do this and that, and then see what they are like out side the church and go "And your in with God and you your doing that, stealing that, fvcking that, cheating on that?" Makes me want to jump on the Jesus bus!

But all I can say is if there is a God or ever was a Jesus I am living prove then that Im its bitch and punching bag I have been fvcked my entire life and nothing screams out and says some supernatural being loves me. No god IMO would put what I have been put through or my family has been put through if one truly does exist.

So you're Satanic? Or in this case, Luciferic?

I personally believe in God through my values. Although I chose them myself, many of my morals are in line with Christianity. I don't try to justify god's existence or geniuses or anything having to do with our Universe. God created our universe. That's where it ends.

I think my views are summed up effectively in a quote form "Kingdom of Heaven"


"I put no stock in religion. By the word religion I have seen the lunacy of fanatics of every denomination be called the will of god. Holiness is in right action, and courage on behalf of those who cannot defend themselves, and goodness. What god desires is here [points to head] and here [points to heart] and by what you decide to do everyday, will make you a good man? or not."
-Hospitaler, Kingdom of Heaven.

I admit I am prone to speculation about god's abilities, but that's it. It's just speculation. I don't truly "believe" anything beyond my values. I do not pray every night, I do not go to Church, but I will be as good as I can be over the course of my life, and I believe that god exists, and I'm willing to give Jesus the benefit of the doubt. If that isn't enough for god, then I'll gladly go to hell.

No I am neither, but I do follow a set of my own rules, I try to be nice to everyone, dont have nothing much nice to say about another person then I try not to say it. I help out with other fellow humans as I can no matter their race or who they are or come from. I try not to judge a book by its cover before making my opinions about a person. I try my damness to be a good person to my wife and kids and to others the best I can, I even gave my home away to another family for free, no strings attached. They were nice enough to help us move and they had a really crappy trailer, despite he delt in drugs the guy was a really nice man and did everything he could to provide for his family, and when I moved out I handed him the title to my home and told him he could have it for nothing and thanks for the help. Anyone else around here give a family a home, granted it was a trailer worth about $8k, still a home, and asked for nothing in return? This is how I am when I have things and I see other people are down and out.

I need no god to tell me to do these things its how I am as a person. Just wish that if there is a god that he would lay off me for a bit and let a little light come into my life for once then to keep hounding me with bad sh1t all the time and making my life a living hell.

God may or may not be at work there (according to my beliefs). My life is currently sh!t too, proof but I don't go blaming god. There's no point in doing so. Won't dig me out my holes. I just focus on what I can control. I'll adapt to anything else.

My personal philosophy is enlightened optimism. Things will always work out in some form or other if I try to do something about it.

 

[CountZero]

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
I think pretty much every religion says God is Merciful to those who follow his path and unleashes wrath like no other upon those who don't. And I think it mostly applies in the after-life. If it were true in this life, the world would be run by saints and there would be no hatred or corruption.

It's not about 'cruelty' - it's his brand of justice. He created us and ordered us to do as he told us - and he can do whatever the hell he wants to with us after our time here is down. Basic principle of every religion.

That does seem to be an underlying principle of most religions. But I don't see how an omnipotent being that created everything around us set everything in motion is so flawed as to have an ego problem and in essence saying "worship me or suffer the consequences" is just saying "stroke my ego, I own you!". If thats what god truly is then I think everyone is screwed no matter what religous books or leaders say an entity with such an ego will never be pleased.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: CountZero

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
I think pretty much every religion says God is Merciful to those who follow his path and unleashes wrath like no other upon those who don't. And I think it mostly applies in the after-life. If it were true in this life, the world would be run by saints and there would be no hatred or corruption.

It's not about 'cruelty' - it's his brand of justice. He created us and ordered us to do as he told us - and he can do whatever the hell he wants to with us after our time here is down. Basic principle of every religion.

That does seem to be an underlying principle of most religions. But I don't see how an omnipotent being that created everything around us set everything in motion is so flawed as to have an ego problem and in essence saying "worship me or suffer the consequences" is just saying "stroke my ego, I own you!". If thats what god truly is then I think everyone is screwed no matter what religous books or leaders say an entity with such an ego will never be pleased.

Not with Christianity. I don't ever recall reading a Bible passage that says if you aren't a Christian you will burn in the deepest darkest hole of hell. I DO recall reading that if you merely ask for forgiveness (and truly mean it) then you are thus forgiven.

-Kevin

 

[CountZero]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: CountZero

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
I think pretty much every religion says God is Merciful to those who follow his path and unleashes wrath like no other upon those who don't. And I think it mostly applies in the after-life. If it were true in this life, the world would be run by saints and there would be no hatred or corruption.

It's not about 'cruelty' - it's his brand of justice. He created us and ordered us to do as he told us - and he can do whatever the hell he wants to with us after our time here is down. Basic principle of every religion.

That does seem to be an underlying principle of most religions. But I don't see how an omnipotent being that created everything around us set everything in motion is so flawed as to have an ego problem and in essence saying "worship me or suffer the consequences" is just saying "stroke my ego, I own you!". If thats what god truly is then I think everyone is screwed no matter what religous books or leaders say an entity with such an ego will never be pleased.

Not with Christianity. I don't ever recall reading a Bible passage that says if you aren't a Christian you will burn in the deepest darkest hole of hell. I DO recall reading that if you merely ask for forgiveness (and truly mean it) then you are thus forgiven.

-Kevin

True but that makes the christian god as described by the bible not entirely vengeful and cruel. A vengeful and cruel god would make it impossible to be in its good graces. While the christian god can act cruel at times this is part of a master plan and while it can act vengeful you can ask for forgiveness and be relieved of this act of vengence.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: CountZero

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: CountZero

Originally posted by: theprodigalrebel
I think pretty much every religion says God is Merciful to those who follow his path and unleashes wrath like no other upon those who don't. And I think it mostly applies in the after-life. If it were true in this life, the world would be run by saints and there would be no hatred or corruption.

It's not about 'cruelty' - it's his brand of justice. He created us and ordered us to do as he told us - and he can do whatever the hell he wants to with us after our time here is down. Basic principle of every religion.

That does seem to be an underlying principle of most religions. But I don't see how an omnipotent being that created everything around us set everything in motion is so flawed as to have an ego problem and in essence saying "worship me or suffer the consequences" is just saying "stroke my ego, I own you!". If thats what god truly is then I think everyone is screwed no matter what religous books or leaders say an entity with such an ego will never be pleased.

Not with Christianity. I don't ever recall reading a Bible passage that says if you aren't a Christian you will burn in the deepest darkest hole of hell. I DO recall reading that if you merely ask for forgiveness (and truly mean it) then you are thus forgiven.

-Kevin

True but that makes the christian god as described by the bible not entirely vengeful and cruel. A vengeful and cruel god would make it impossible to be in its good graces. While the christian god can act cruel at times this is part of a master plan and while it can act vengeful you can ask for forgiveness and be relieved of this act of vengence.

I'm terribly sorry but I don't quite understand what you are trying to say. If you could clarify it that would be awesome. Sorry.

-Kevin

 

[Kadarin]

What if God is indeed vengeful and cruel?

Such a God, all-powerful or otherwise, would not be worthy of worship.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Braznor
First things first.

I'am a theist myself, though I'm a deist. And I believe god cannot be cruel or vengeful.

This question is purely for academic curiosity.

So how would you react since both the camps are fvcked anyway?

/puts on flamesuit

How would I react? I'd look forward to Hell. Satan probably tired of torturing people thousands of years ago. Sure, they've still got a section for folks like Hitler, but for the most part, it's all just a big party there. All the fun and interesting people go there.

Really, if God's vengeful, everyone's kind of screwed.