What has happened to the Israeli army?

[Moonbeam]

M: I said a close perspective has been shown to produce more bias than one at a distance sometimes, related to the level of previous bias, but I also disagree with your black and white characterization of the Arab. Arabs are like any other people because they ARE people. In the first place we know that we demonize the other to allow ourselves, in good conscience, to kill them, and that we project on others, the unknown, all our hidden psychological fears. Our own intransigence and unwillingness to change that we won't admit to ourselves, we see in the other via the psychological process called projection.

S: Of course they are people, and nowhere have I implied they are genetically inferior. If you took an Arab infant and raised him in a Western culture entirely, he'd become a Westerner...

M: You aren't saying they are genetically inferior. You are saying that their difference from you makes coexistence impossible, that they are too violent and not up to Colorado standards. You are biased in my opinion but it isn't racial. It comes from colorations from your past experience and closeness to bad experiences just like people in the US who live in high crime black areas tend to see all blacks as thugs. There is a contextual truth to what you say but it is blinding to higher realities, namely that we are all the same.
======================

M: What some call different may not be so different as we may have a psychological need to maintain, as I pointed our in the prior point I just made.


S: It's a different culture, and different cultures yield different ethics, values and morals. The scale is so different here you just can't compare them to Westerners.

M: Hehe, no fair saying things twice to make them seem true by repetition. I can and do compare them to Westerners because they are human like me. He who knows who he is, in my opinion, knows everybody and sees himself in others too. We are all the same. We are all the same. Hehe. Know thyself and perhaps you will agree.

===================================
M: Many of these things are all a part of Islamic law, I believe.

S: Correct, but also the result of tribal social arrangement that has been going on... well, forever. It's interesting, but it's different. Arab regimes are based on force and dictatorship for a reason - way before the EXISTANCE of the CIA (for all those who imply US nutured these).

M: This sounds like nothing more than more bias to me. It is the use of force by governments that create monsters of the people and that monstrosity is always used as a convenient reason by dictators to justify their positions. All of humanity once lived in a tribal state and there is much in the way of good that is had thereby and much that can be bad just as in any arrangement humans have so far come to. This is no pretext, in my opinion, for Israel to justify the use of its own force as all such 'low types' will ever understand. It is very difficult for people with implacable enemies not to also lose their own bearings and go off the deep end. Israel has not been totally immune to this in my opinion.

============================

M: It is not just a habit. It is a cultural imperative. You neighbors will hound you to death and your family will lose all respect if you don't follow this tradition. It is, however, illegal in Islamic law and purely tribal in origin, no? Americans used to hold slaves.

S: Correct again. If you want to go on with the comparison to slavery, think what would happen if someone tried to change slavery after 1000 years. As part of this scenario, think that Jesus had a slave of his own. Would it be this easy, like, one civil war and a century or two of struggle for granting equal rights?

I'm not saying a change couldn't happen - it WILL happen - but it's going to take time and it should come from within the Arab nation. You can't enforce such huge changes UNLESS you go for another crusade, or drop the A-bomb Japan style. If you want to remold them, you have to shatter them first, but you can't just change them, not by normal wars and not by stirring like the CIA.

M: No, change will not be easy or instant, but change, information exchange, and the quantity of human knowledge have accelerated at an inconceivable rate and continues to do so. Good grief, I've seen Pong go to World of Warcraft. Hehe. Slavery would die very fast today, but the important point is that it was human conscience, the realization of the essential identical humanity of blacks and all other peoples that ended slavery. The compassion and love in the human soul came out. The stupid and senseless hate between Israel and the Arab world isn't fundamentally different or essentially more intractable. It is in the nature of chimpanzees to empathize with other chimps and to feel for them as they feel for themselves. The golden Rule IS genetic. The point is that consciousness and conscience can only happen in the individual. Nothing can force change, but humanity has a basic human nature, the image of God, toward which it will always evolve regardless of the madness in which it finds itself. In each person there is God who is trying to be known. Only you can hear your own inner voice. You are what you eat, as we like to say, and if you focus on differences, how bad the other guy is and not on your own faults and things that only you yourself can change, that evolution will never happen for you and thus for the rest of the human race. Have you not already come a long way? Change occurs out of need and Israel and Palestine have tremendous need. What is required, I think is focus, the realization, the refusal to focus on difference, but to know that we are all the same. Sadly, what we hate in the other is the part of ourselves we do not wish to see and that can change only by knowing yourself. We are all conditioned to be the way we are and need to study just what and how we came to be what we are. We need, also, I think, to go out and meet the other. The unknown is the playground of the devil and where he likes to pretend to appear.

======================

S: Yes, but the fact is that communication is forcing all of us to wake up to the other. We are not inferior and let the best of cultures win, no, in the field of cultural competition?


Again I agree with you, and the Internet and Sattelite TV (the biggest catalyst for a change in the Arab world) do shorten processes that could take centuries before.
But it will still take some time, and we still have this obstacle of Islamic fundamentalism that might direct the reform boat to a very wrong course. Granted, it will correct itself eventually, even on its own, but we have difficult times ahead.

M: Yes, but the war all people should be fighting, in my opinion, is not the war between people, but the war of ideas, the truth that we are all the same and the image of God. We need to find some way to convince humanity that it's demons are the product of our own mind, our self hate projected out there.

=======================

M: They did not get to be perceived as traitors by being paragons of western values, but by being worthless scum, no?

S: As I said, none was a symbol of integrity, and it's easy to see why reverting to "pure" Islamic fundamental values was the chosen solution in many of these cases.
The thing is, Arabs could stand alot of aggression by their rulers, but when it comes to selling their honor to the west, they uproot.

The repeating theme is, they hate each other, but they hate the west more. It's the same with their attitude toward Israel, BTW.

M: I do not understand what you mean by uproot. Arab honor to me is fear of losing face which is fear of being humiliated, which is fear of remembering how being humiliated is how one was conditioned to conform to the insanity of our parents and society. The hate of the other is hate for who we were, angels who used to be God, and were turned by humiliation. Arab humiliation is universal. We are all the same. We fear hate because it killed us and we hate killers so we kill God within us for revenge. We have all strapped on the bomb and blown ourselves up. We have died to love.

==============
M: As I said, they co-exist pretty damn good where I live and all the kids are on the same soccer team. In the US we get lots of practice, have rewarding things to do beside kill each other, and have courts and police to put breaks on trouble. Far from perfect, mind you, but a bit intolerant of those claims it can't be done.

S: I said that some individuals find their ways to the west and integrate well. Others do not. I enjoyed a conversation enroute from NY to San Diego with a former Jordanian who sat next to me. He seemed to have adopted Western values completely, but can that be said on all the Arabs who chose to live in the west? Their majorities?
Look at what happens in Britain, Rome, Madrid, Paris. It's just the beginning. They - objectively - show no will to become true residents of their hosting countries.

M: I look and I see they are humiliated in those places too. But we don't do so much of that here because we are all members of some class or race that somewhere else is worthless and we cut ourselves more slack. Have to, it's competition city here and everybody's money is green and anybody may become a business partner.

====================
M: I will try to change the way you think if I find your thinking is also killing your neighbor and stands in the way of that happy earth. I will seek to bring you before the bar of rational minds.

S: It's the grim reality we have to face here.

Here's a brief summary of the state of coexistance in Israel -
In short, Arabs are mostly left alone. They don't live next to Jews, they don't pay taxes, they don't serve in the army. They enjoy some kind of under-the-table Autonomy. Their leaders, while representing them in the Knesset, show contempt to the state of Israel and some of whom even justify Nassarallah. When Hizbullah rockets hit Arab villages, the Arabs pronounced their dead children martyers, Shaids, just like suicide bombers.
The police doesn't want to deal with them, they are responsible for most of the property related crimes in Israel.

Could you imagine yourself an American town of Chinese with NO police presence, no taxes, nothing? A true no-mans-land?

They have their own ruling system, one that is based on tribes, just like in days of old.

Now tell me, how can you integrate another 2 million of those? What would happen to Israel?

M: Sounds to me like you might want to integrate those 2 million first, no? I would begin with taxes. I notice that people forget their race or color or religion when you put their hand in their wallet. Why the hell are these people not given the same responsibilities as any other citizen. The sound like a bunch of welfare queens. Sounds like they have basically been put on the take. Where's the dignity in that. Pride comes when you shoulder your share of the good work of society.

 

[Willoughbyva]

Moonbeam I agree with you. I could never write it out the way you have, it is good to see you post here. In order to come to the conclusions you have wouldn't the people in those countries need some type of counseling? That is how I learned to accept myself and those around me. For me it was a very personal thing. Not somethng I found in religion, though the gospels helped a great deal. I guess it was more of sperituality. Anyway I think it would take some time and introspection. Some tearing down of old walls and building on a different foundation. All of which takes time and introspection.

Perry

 

[Aisengard]

I agree, that was well thought-out Moonbeam. Are you schizophrenic or something? Who is "M" and who is "S"?

What I like the most about your posts is that they are hopeful, if not a little idealist, and they totally lack hate. I respect that.

 

[Lemon law]

No, the moonbeam position is exactly that---a moonbeam and not of this earth.

What we have is an idealistic experiment---an attempt to correct an injustive of the holcaust by a fledgling UN--only two years old at the time--as it sought bold new experiment to grant
a set of jewish refugees nationhood and dominion over what was part of the then mortibund British mandate in 1948. The first wrong was 100% on the part of the surrounding Arab States
as they angryly decided to push this newly formed State into the Sea---and found out they were dealing with a new State that was the real deal---able to fend off their armies, kick their arab asses, and make the arid land that is now Israel yield crops unseen in the area for thousands of years. If that east met west example had stood on that just that basis, a superior culture showing a more decadent one how things can be done with a little bit of smarts, we would not be in the mess we are today.

Instead the new State of Israel then decided to meet wrong with wrong, by disenfranchising all Palistinians under their dominion, stealing their land, and forever losing a chance to prove themselves morally superior to an equally immoral arab dominated region.

As they say, all else is just history and follows from a two wrongs make a right thinking. Now we have a situation where the Isaelies will never give back the land that they stole from the arabs and the arabs are determined to get both their fair share of the land back and to also exterminate all the jews. While the Israelie position is that they stole it fair and square---now you and whose army will compel them to grant equal human rights to the culterally inferior arabs. Which is where this crisis has stuck for 58 years as it gets closer and closer to the trigger to a new world war.

And now an old State sponsored technology of rockets jumps the shark into terrorists hands---leveling forever the playing field---and dangerously escalating a current crisis. And now Israel, for the first time in 58 years, faces the same terror they have visitited on their suppressed Palistinian populatioin without the inpunity they formely enjoyed.

There remains the old tale of the wisdom of Solomon---who was confronted with two females--both claiming to be the rightful mother of the same child---and Solomon then proposed that the child be cut in two--so both could have an equal share of a resulting dead child---and counted on the real mother to deny her claim so her child could live rather than die.

Where is the current world wisdom of Solomon---to fairly share a holy land sacred to three religions?---its now its the three little pigs with all the players playing the part of the big bad wolf. Any that side with any given pig is an idiot---they are all pigs---remember that---I have somewhat taken the Arab side to show its not just one sided---once we establish all sides are wrong---we can progress towards a fair solution.--and not until then.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
No, the moonbeam position is exactly that---a moonbeam and not of this earth.

What we have is an idealistic experiment---an attempt to correct an injustive of the holcaust by a fledgling UN--only two years old at the time--as it sought bold new experiment to grant
a set of jewish refugees nationhood and dominion over what was part of the then mortibund British mandate in 1948. The first wrong was 100% on the part of the surrounding Arab States
as they angryly decided to push this newly formed State into the Sea---and found out they were dealing with a new State that was the real deal---able to fend off their armies, kick their arab asses, and make the arid land that is now Israel yield crops unseen in the area for thousands of years. If that east met west example had stood on that just that basis, a superior culture showing a more decadent one how things can be done with a little bit of smarts, we would not be in the mess we are today.

Instead the new State of Israel then decided to meet wrong with wrong, by disenfranchising all Palistinians under their dominion, stealing their land, and forever losing a chance to prove themselves morally superior to an equally immoral arab dominated region.

As they say, all else is just history and follows from a two wrongs make a right thinking. Now we have a situation where the Isaelies will never give back the land that they stole from the arabs and the arabs are determined to get both their fair share of the land back and to also exterminate all the jews. While the Israelie position is that they stole it fair and square---now you and whose army will compel them to grant equal human rights to the culterally inferior arabs. Which is where this crisis has stuck for 58 years as it gets closer and closer to the trigger to a new world war.

And now an old State sponsored technology of rockets jumps the shark into terrorists hands---leveling forever the playing field---and dangerously escalating a current crisis. And now Israel, for the first time in 58 years, faces the same terror they have visitited on their suppressed Palistinian populatioin without the inpunity they formely enjoyed.

There remains the old tale of the wisdom of Solomon---who was confronted with two females--both claiming to be the rightful mother of the same child---and Solomon then proposed that the child be cut in two--so both could have an equal share of a resulting dead child---and counted on the real mother to deny her claim so her child could live rather than die.

Where is the current world wisdom of Solomon---to fairly share a holy land sacred to three religions?---its now its the three little pigs with all the players playing the part of the big bad wolf. Any that side with any given pig is an idiot---they are all pigs---remember that---I have somewhat taken the Arab side to show its not just one sided---once we establish all sides are wrong---we can progress towards a fair solution.--and not until then.

Hehe, not of this earth...........

The earthly solution is to kill the two mothers and put the baby up for adoption. I suggest a few tens of neutron bombs to protect the oil rigs.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tequila

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

That was not a war of religion. When you are raised to hate a people because of there god that is different. Every child born in the arab nation to a parent who hates Israel/The west has no chance.

So.. the clear solution to the problem is for all the Israeli to convert to Islam.. then they will all share a common bond and live in peace...
So there is hope... there is a means by which peace can occur.. and that is a starting point...
Focus on the similarities with the intention of moving closer together..
I wonder if anyone would sit at the same table as their enemy and see just what they have in common...
They'd end up hating us, probably.. heheh

 

[Lemon law]

Ah Lunar Ray,

If you were but right some sense might come---but your theory is confronted by a powerful white house dogma of the rapture--as each white house staffer is instructed to cary their bible so they can follow that clear path to the enfolding rapure that is the destiny of our end times. While I don't believe a word of it, its some mumbo jumbo about the Isrealies being a necessary but unloved people who will blunder into the necessary precusors to the second coming of Jesus Christ. First they must fufil certain conditions, among which is the destruction of the temple on the rock, at which point Jesus himself will lead the forces of good---and the jews will convert in mass to Christianity. At which point the world will end as a final melding of the worlds only two true religions.---and GWB himself will be mankinds champion as this glorious senario enfolds.---don't be left behind with me when the rapture comes.

Now you come along with this wack job theory that jews will convert to Islam---please don't confuse GWB---you would not like him when he is confused.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

No, they and the UN demand far worse from Israel. They demand "Peace for our time". The exact repeat of what Europe did in 1938 after it appeased an aggressor. Millions of lives were lost due to in part, the unwillingness of good men to confront evil.

Now we have it on a global scale. World wide condemnation against a nation fighting for its life against groups which are not held accountable for their war. The world will take action against Israel to make peace, but what will it do against groups such as Hizbollah? Nothing.

Israel was taking action, the UN demands no action. They demand their troops are in place so they can protect Hizbollah. If they had to fight Hizbollah to stop its attacks they?d have to do the very things they condemned Israel of doing.

The flaw is not lack of military superiority. All of Lebanon could be carpet bombed if Israel wanted to do what it took to win. They held their forces back at the cost of their own lives to try to achieve victory in light of UN demands for no action. The IDF could fight a real war anytime it wants; the problem is a lack of determination to win.

That was Israel?s problem from the beginning. In the tactic of human shields, Hizbollah has taken all of Lebanon hostage with their war and is willing to see every last man, woman, and child die. For Hizbollah?s crimes, the UN grants them sanctuary, thereby validating such tactics. Israel fears what the world would do to them if they fought through the human shields to reach their enemy. It would cost Lebanon hundreds of thousands of lives to stop Hizbollah and no one is willing to do it.

Thus even if we manage a ?Peace for our time? Hizbollah remains able to wage war at a later date, at the time of its choosing, and after Iran develops the nuclear technology they so greatly desire.

 

[Lemon law]

To Jackalas,

You speak of the arabs as if they had a single mind and a single voice---when they are human and do not think alike---just like the Isrealies. But take Lebanon---you came into this latest conflict with only 25% of the Lebanese people supporting Hezbollah---and have emerged from this crisis with 75% of the people supporting Hezbolalh---which resulted from Israel managing this crisis stupidly and racheting the hatreds up. When Israel could have reached out to the international community, could have confined their actions to just taking out the launch sites, and could have been more willing to work with a basketcase Lebanese government.

Now Hezbollah is the new boogie man---and it can't be exterminated as Israel wishes---and even if you can get Hezbollah to sit at a peace table and be a totally honest group---the tactics of Hezbollah will just pass to other arab terrorist groups who will break any cease fires.---but the rocket technology has not yet passed to these other groups. Which means that Israel has that limited time yet to really engage in talks---and get the hatreds down.---maybe Israel may discover that most rational arabs are not dedicated to the destruction of the jewish state---and living together and sharing is possible---but Israel must meet them half way.---and gasp---confront the right to return.

But if the world grants your oil and water hypothesis---and either the Israelies must exterminate all arabs or arabs must exterminate all Israelies---and peace is only possible that way---for the world it would be a no brainer---the groups can't co-exist---so one group must be moved away from the other---and its far easier to remove the less numerous Israelies than the more numerous arabs---and the noble experiment of a jewish state must be tried somewhere else.---a simple solution to a complex problem.

But there are the two choices Israel now has---and Israelie collective punishment will no longer be permitted by a shocked and angry world.

CHOOSE.

 

[Aisengard]

The other choice for Israel is to up and move? Completely remove 6 million+ people from their rightful land that they were born on? AGAIN? I'm beginning to understand the mindset of those who allowed the forced movements of Jews out of Russia, and Austria and Germany, and eventually turned a blind eye to the Holocaust. That you are considering forcing it upon these people once again, without any recollection of history at all...it makes me sick.

Anyway, sorry Lemon Law, it's hardly a choice. This 'problem' is at least two generations removed from its initial conception. There are MUCH worse injustices in history that have been completely ignored, and so there was peace.

It's time for the Palestinians to finally get over it. It's not their land anymore, please focus on building up the land you've had for 80 years instead of focusing all your resources on destroying Israel.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

I think it's time for the Palestinians to finally move on. Accept that your land is lost and start anew. The problem is they would rather die than do that.

 

[LunarRay]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ah Lunar Ray,

If you were but right some sense might come---but your theory is confronted by a powerful white house dogma of the rapture--as each white house staffer is instructed to cary their bible so they can follow that clear path to the enfolding rapure that is the destiny of our end times. While I don't believe a word of it, its some mumbo jumbo about the Isrealies being a necessary but unloved people who will blunder into the necessary precusors to the second coming of Jesus Christ. First they must fufil certain conditions, among which is the destruction of the temple on the rock, at which point Jesus himself will lead the forces of good---and the jews will convert in mass to Christianity. At which point the world will end as a final melding of the worlds only two true religions.---and GWB himself will be mankinds champion as this glorious senario enfolds.---don't be left behind with me when the rapture comes.

Now you come along with this wack job theory that jews will convert to Islam---please don't confuse GWB---you would not like him when he is confused.

Well... it is rebuild the temple which has as its historical site on an edge of the Muslim Dome of the Rock grounds.. not the Muslim temple itself...

And hehehhe there are three rapture possibilites... pre, mid and post tribulation.. take your pick... heheh

IF all what is written and believed by many is true then what will be will be.. but I'm sure we have some place we can move Israel ... but they won't move cuz they too know about the rebuilding of the temple and have Levi priests all ready and waiting to take up their role...

I actually heard a 'preacher' say... "This Israeli / Muslim et al issue is what must happen and both or all the parties know this so they act accordingly.. The President knows this too so we must pray for him to complete his mission so the Lord can come and take us all up to heaven"....
I am really worried that folks take their belief in that regard and go to extremes...
I know that there are but two commandments issued from Jesus (Matt: 23) and nothing about going to war is in that.. quite to the contrary... it seems to me.

 

[Lemon law]

You misunderstand Aisengard,

Its only if you pre-decide that arabs and Israelies can't make peace that this draconiam measure of moving 6+ million people becomes NECESSARY.---or do you prefer moving many many many more times that many arabs. If one or the other group has to go----which group----one or the other---choose wisely---choose pragmatically. Its would be a giant injustice either way.

But this can't go on and on and on forever----rocket technology has raised the stakes----and now the buffer zone Isreal needs to assure their safety has just increased by at least 60 miles in every direction with todays technology---soon that zone will have to be far bigger----can't you think ahead to a future based on present trend lines?

Of course their is that other radical solution----Israel getting real and starting to acknowledge their faults also---and its actually possible for an Israelie and an Arab to work side by side in building a better mid-east for all.-------and yes Israel will have to finally acknowledge the right to return----and I ask you Aisengard---what to you say to the millions of living Palistinians-----is your line its just not your land anymore----wander off into the desert and die---your death is necessary so Israel can enjoy the basic human rights they deny you?

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
You misunderstand Aisengard,

Its only if you pre-decide that arabs and Israelies can't make peace- they will never make peace! Peace is invumbent on the arabs recognizing israels right to the land that is currently israel! that this draconiam measure of moving 6+ million people becomes NECESSARY. that so called draconian measure will never happen. Just more of your conjecture.---or do you prefer moving many many many more times that many arabs. If one or the other group has to go----which group----one or the other---choose wisely---choose pragmatically. Its would be a giant injustice either way. Niether group will move. PERIOD!! They will keep on fighting.

But this can't go on and on and on forever- oh Yes it can and it will----rocket technology has raised the stakes----and now the buffer zone Isreal needs to assure their safety has just increased by at least 60 miles in every direction with todays technology---soon that zone will have to be far bigger----can't you think ahead to a future based on present trend lines?Don`t need to think ahead. We all know even those of you who claim to want or know whats best, we all know peace will never happen. Until such time as one person comes on the scene who can unify the world. Even then if you believe in what the bible calls the end times that peace will be short lived.

Of course their is that other radical solution----Israel getting real and starting to acknowledge their faults also---and its actually possible for an Israelie and an Arab to work side by side in building a better mid-east for all.
No it is not possible for them to work side by side. Only foolish people are blind to the fact that its NOT Israel that has to make all the right moves. if the arabs would recognize israels right to exist--which they do not, then all would be well. That will never happen thus nothing will change!!-------and yes Israel will have to finally acknowledge the right to return----and I ask you Aisengard---what to you say to the millions of living Palistinians-----is your line its just not your land anymore----wander off into the desert and die---your death is necessary so Israel can enjoy the basic human rights they deny you?

I am sorry the millions living in palestine have nothing whatsoever to do with the arabs acknowledging Israels right to exist. Keep dreaming and putting your various spins on this...nothing will change!

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: LunarRay

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ah Lunar Ray,

If you were but right some sense might come---but your theory is confronted by a powerful white house dogma of the rapture--as each white house staffer is instructed to cary their bible so they can follow that clear path to the enfolding rapure that is the destiny of our end times. While I don't believe a word of it, its some mumbo jumbo about the Isrealies being a necessary but unloved people who will blunder into the necessary precusors to the second coming of Jesus Christ. First they must fufil certain conditions, among which is the destruction of the temple on the rock, at which point Jesus himself will lead the forces of good---and the jews will convert in mass to Christianity. At which point the world will end as a final melding of the worlds only two true religions.---and GWB himself will be mankinds champion as this glorious senario enfolds.---don't be left behind with me when the rapture comes.

Now you come along with this wack job theory that jews will convert to Islam---please don't confuse GWB---you would not like him when he is confused.

Well... it is rebuild the temple which has as its historical site on an edge of the Muslim Dome of the Rock grounds.. not the Muslim temple itself...

And hehehhe there are three rapture possibilites... pre, mid and post tribulation.. take your pick... heheh

IF all what is written and believed by many is true then what will be will be.. but I'm sure we have some place we can move Israel ... but they won't move cuz they too know about the rebuilding of the temple and have Levi priests all ready and waiting to take up their role...

I actually heard a 'preacher' say... "This Israeli / Muslim et al issue is what must happen and both or all the parties know this so they act accordingly.. The President knows this too so we must pray for him to complete his mission so the Lord can come and take us all up to heaven"....
I am really worried that folks take their belief in that regard and go to extremes...
I know that there are but two commandments issued from Jesus (Matt: 23) and nothing about going to war is in that.. quite to the contrary... it seems to me.

We wish and unconsciously seek to bring about the End because it is what we feel we deserve. We all feel the worst in the world and would rather die than know it. So we walk backward to our deaths. But there will be no resurrection and second life for us because the Kingdom of Heaven is within us and we will all be gone as well as all the children who know the Kingdom too.

 

[Aisengard]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
You misunderstand Aisengard,

Its only if you pre-decide that arabs and Israelies can't make peace that this draconiam measure of moving 6+ million people becomes NECESSARY.---or do you prefer moving many many many more times that many arabs. If one or the other group has to go----which group----one or the other---choose wisely---choose pragmatically. Its would be a giant injustice either way.

But this can't go on and on and on forever----rocket technology has raised the stakes----and now the buffer zone Isreal needs to assure their safety has just increased by at least 60 miles in every direction with todays technology---soon that zone will have to be far bigger----can't you think ahead to a future based on present trend lines?

Of course their is that other radical solution----Israel getting real and starting to acknowledge their faults also---and its actually possible for an Israelie and an Arab to work side by side in building a better mid-east for all.-------and yes Israel will have to finally acknowledge the right to return----and I ask you Aisengard---what to you say to the millions of living Palistinians-----is your line its just not your land anymore----wander off into the desert and die---your death is necessary so Israel can enjoy the basic human rights they deny you?

Many thought that it was "necessary" to move the Jews because the Russians and the Germans couldn't live with them. So it was in the Jews' best interest to move somewhere else. We ALL know full well how that turned out.

That you are even considering this possibility, without any respect to history, sickens me.

And the "right of return" is pure, unadulterated BS. Okay, the British should let all those dead Palestinians whose land they gave to the Jews back on the land. What's that you say? They're DEAD? Oh well.

That's pretty much the end of it. The Israelis own that land, have owned it for 80+ years, and Israel can do whatever the ****** they want in their immigration policies. Any other country has that right. The Palestinians are allowed to be greedy. They don't 'deserve' that land any more than you do. They were born on the land of Palestine...that's their land. Israelis have shown that if you really try, you can make a spectacular country out of a desert. Instead, the Palestinians allowed themselves to be lead by maniacs who even rejected a plan to let them have their own country, taking land AWAY from the original charter of Israeli borders(!) I'm sorry, but today's Palestinians have no claim to Israel. And until people can start realizing that, then yes, there will continue to be war.

Just because the Palestinians are greedy does not mean Israel should be moved. You're talking about moving an established country, 60+ years old (with certain towns and villages more than 100+ years) to a completely different place. Please, tell me when that's been done before. And please, try to differentiate this scenario to the one that involved the greedy Germans and Russians (among others).

I really cannot understand how you can think this way and not be sickened by the prospects of your thoughts.

 

[Lemon law]

Well Irate Leaf----who says NOTHING WILL CHANGE.

Guess what----something has ALREADY changed----you had rockets----and now the TERRORISTS HAVE ROCKETS ALSO.

I don't know about you-----but I think thats a BIG change.-----and a huge escalalation.

But to get your peace it will be on two terms-----Israel must finally recognize the right to return and the arab must recognize the right for Israel to exist----both are necessary!

If Israel does not recognize the right to return---the next question is where in the world does the nation of Israel intend to pack up and move to?

 

[Screech]

Ok, here's how you solve it: Any palestinian older than 58 years old can return to israel, arabs recognize Israel's right to exist, problem solved.

And yes, things have escalated, but i don't think it is THAT much of an escalation. Hizbullah has rockets because Iran and syria finance it/arm it. Hamas, AFAIK, isn't there yet in terms of technology.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: screech
Ok, here's how you solve it: Any palestinian older than 58 years old can return to israel, arabs recognize Israel's right to exist, problem solved.

Is that the plan backed by Florida's Cubans?

 

[Aisengard]

The Florida Cubans are seen as very radical. Even when Cuba regains independence from the Castro regime, and the US recognizes them again, and they are not exiled anymore, they won't be granted immediate compensation.

This is understood to be pretty fair. So why do the Palestinians get away with their BS?

 

[Lemon law]

Because the Palastinians never really left---they only abandoned their homes to seek temporary safety from the fighting---as they were caught between two armies.
As would any other rational person----including their then jewish neighbors they had been living next to in comparative peace and harmony. When the jew returned--it was
welcome back, we will help you rebuild your home---when the Palistinian returned it was off to the refugee camp---land stolen---you have no rights in the land of your birth.

That is the dirty secret Israel conceals---it could have been a government that granted equals rights to all of its citizens in 1948---but because SOME Palistinians fought against them,
ALL Palistinians were punished. It did not have to be this way---Israel could have been a government that granted equality to all.----and to this day, that theft can only be defended by a strong army. And now we have millions of people being held in bondage----its just amasing to me that any can champion Israelie rights while totally ignoring the rights of the Palistinians. You either realise that all men are created equal---have equal rights---or you are a bigot---simple as that----and as we can see---the Israelies just flat out refuse to work with or grant equal rights to Palistinians or arabs-----and then blame arabs for being angry and bigoted-----anyone notice a wee might of hypocracy here?---maybe they hate for a reason now.

Everywhere else on this planet we see hatreds being defused---christians and Moslems are living together once again in the Balkins---South Africa has remade itself---the Irish and English have patched up their differences---------but not in Israel?-----and no one can see that the Israelies are even in the slightest to blame???

For you to compare that to Cuba is just totally false---they were not exciled---they left volentarily and were the upper strata of Cubans who were doing quite well under Batista--and many were just Batista hired thugs---while everyone else in Cuba were being really exploited----some of the upper strata choose to leave figuring their favored status was over---the rest stayed and did much better under Castro.

Not saying Castro was without faults---but compared to Batista---its just no contest.

 

[MadRat]

I don't think your argument is well supported, LL. In fact its all pretty much FUD. You've completely mischaracterized the existence of Isreal - just as the radical Muslims trying to destroy it! So basically you are seeing things from an ignorant point of view. The Isreali government has repeatedly asserted their right to their homeland. They will continue to fight for it. Just because the action in southern Lebanon has been unpopular with Isrealis after their losses, don't think their cease fire wasn't a calculated risk. If Hezbollah lights up more rockets on them you will see a new offensive, only this time much more prepared for and carried out with precision. Isreal always wins the rematches.

 

[Aisengard]

It's funny Lemon Law, because Israeli Arabs technically are BETTER OFF rights-wise than other Israelis. They don't pay taxes, and there's no compulsory army service, yet they have significant representation in the government. If that's discrimination, hell, sign me up!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Arabs#Legal_and_political_status

 

[Lemon law]

Face it---the Israelies are the bigots----if the shoe fits wear it.

Well wow---they don't have to pay any taxes on all the money they don't make---how generous.---they are held in bondage in the land of their birth.---if they don't serve in the IDF,
no decent job is available to them----so how many Palistinian millionares are there in Isreal?---what is the average Palaistinian income compared to the average Israelie?---these are just some of the other measures of an equality test.

bigot bigot bigot bigot---thy name is Israel.-----------shame on you.---you no longer fool us in the United States---we in the US will just kick the underpinning out from the bigoted State
Israel has become.----it is the beginning of the end---now Isreal must get real on the right to return or its days are numbered.---one year left---maybe five---we will indeed see as the events play out.

A State based on bigotism cannot long endure.

 

[Aisengard]

Just because you repeat it three times doesn't make it so, Lemon Law. I don't see Palestinians claiming "injustices" to their people when they kidnap journalists, or make their soapbox arguments against Israel's existence.

Face it, your 'discrimination' arguments, while somewhat valid in some cases, are VASTLY overblown, and does not in ANY way excuse the terrorist actions of these Arabs against Israel. If you actually read the wikipedia article, it says there's actually a pretty well-off Arab Israeli middle class, and they have several high-ups in the government, INCLUDING a supreme court justice. Plus, the Supreme Court is telling Israel to stop whatever minor acts of injustices may occur here and there. Hardly proof for a so-called 'bigoted' state.

I don't see why you can't face it - Israel is the most progressive democracy in the entire Middle East. When compared to any other Middle Eastern country in terms of most anything, Israel comes out on top. Is it because they aren't dedicated to the destruction of a people and/or a country? You decide!

EDIT: Also, if you want to play the 'income' card, let's compare. What is the average income of Mexican immigrants compared to whites in America? Or black people for that matter? Does that prove America is a horrifically bigoted state and is not long for this world?

Your arguments are BS. I'm calling you on it now.