What has happened to the Israeli army?

[Aisengard]

Magomago, you really think that these terrorists want peace? No Arab country, and no Arab leader, wants peace with Israel. This was evident when they started the 1967 war, and it's evident now, with Lebanon tacitly approving of Hezbollah running their country (into the ground), and Palestinian leader after Palestinian leader rejecting any land-for-peace proposal coming their way.

And you really think it's not about religion? Take for example Nasrallah (Nasr-Allah, Allah's aid), claiming jihad against the infidels. It's all about religion, dating back thousands of years. Israelis can live with Arab Muslims as long as they don't blow themselves up in crowded marketplaces. But Arab leaders do not want to live with Israelis. They want them gone. THEY are the ones who most want racial purity, hence their charter of the destruction of Israel.

And if by 'resisting' American culture, you mean repressing women's rights, condoning public execution of people who had sex before marriage, and allowing the religion and clerics to control every single aspect of society, then you are in a sad state. That is what we mean when we say they reject Western principles. And this is what we mean when we say they have a LONG way to go before they're "modernized".

The proposal of a Palestinian state with East Jerusalem as its capital was offered by the Israelis years before. Arafat, under pressure of all the religious fanatics beneath him, flatly rejected it. The Palestinian leaders DO NOT WANT PEACE. THEY HAVE NO POWER WITHOUT CONSTANT WAR WITH ISRAEL. I think you need to understand this, before you go off on your point-by-point BS.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: magomago

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Everything is spin.

Israel is a mighty military machine because.....

Israel has suffered a major defeat because.....

People have faces because they are ashamed of who they are. People need lies and illusions because they do not want to be who they are. When you feel you are worce than sh!t you pretend to be a rose.

What in the h3ll does this mean? LOL speak english, not psychobabble please

He is saying that people on each side talk about their glorious victory. Its the same event, but because take a completely different spin on it and its clearly obvious because those against Israel talk about Israel's humiliating defeat and those for Israel talked about how they did great job and then add in some macho male attitude of "we fought up utmost restraint"

The reason you see two such differences is because BOTH of these people need to maintain their honor and dignity. In Chinese culture, there is a saying that you "need to save your own face"...regardless of what happens to you, to others you need to appear fine. If you ever "lose your face" you lose your dignity...and to the Arabs as well as Israelis their dignity is of utmost importance, and is the reason why they see the event so differently~ the Israelis proclaiming their victory and threatening that they will "kiick more ass" (as if they don't realize they are actually killing innocents) and the Arabs who say they are the ones who came out stronger (as if they don't realize that fighting in Lebanon gave Israel to absolutely destroy lots of Lebanese infrastructure and put another Arab country behind 10-15 years of development)
Both don't want to lose their face...but both have no idea that a Shadow Preist melted their faces LOOONG ago and are now in denial

It seemed straightforeward for a moonbeam post to me

Yes and I only add that which is a mystery to all of humanity, the reason they have, keep, and will die for face, the fact that their face is a pretense that hides from them the fact that they feel worthless. Take a Jew or an Arab, or a person, really from any where and call him a stinking Jew or Arab or a stinking whatever he maintains he is and he will react with hostility and violence almost every time, but call a nylorian pinote and he will just stare? The reason for this is that you can only get to people who have already been gotten to, who already have been insulted and made to feel bad. You have to feel inferior to be insulted. Nobody is bothered by being a nylorian pinote because no feelings of inferiority are triggered by these sounds. We are machines who have been put to sleep by the fact that we don't remember when we were made to feel bad because the experience was all the pain that we could feel since it happened before we had any defense at all and were 100% open to the potential to be hurt. We were all emotionally killed as children to make us as sick as those who surround us. We were forced to become our local version of Jews or Arabs. To end this endless conflict it is necessary to heal, to know that what we really are is human and all the same, all created in the image of God just as we created Him. We are the mirror of God that has been kicked into the mud and what we reflect now is that mud. We who dies to this false face we were forced to adopt is he who will relive his pain and retrieve his original self from the mud, he who actually remembers what happened so that he can actually know it was all a lie he was sold by the terror of others. Only he who dies to what he was made to be can ever really be free. The world is just a battleground of sleeping machines intent that all others should suffer the same delusions as he. This of course means that humanity will go extinct because, so far, humanity would rather die than awaken. We believe we are sh!t so we will not feel that truth because we feel that it is true. We can't know it's a lie because we won't remember.

I love these words from Meher Baba: "I am the divinely beloved who loves you more than you can possibly ever love yourself. Relax and be happy."

But I disagree because I have seen other such lovers. Perhaps one will be you.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

True. But adult humans are not newborn children. Loss of innocence is inevitable. Each new generation is force-fed the ignorance, fear, and hatred of their predecessors.

We're all just primordial slime-mold with big brains. We will continue to butt against one another, usually surviving to butt another day, but eventually committing one final grand butt that will leave what remains to the inheritance of the meek: the cockroaches.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

True. But adult humans are not newborn children. Loss of innocence is inevitable. Each new generation is force-fed the ignorance, fear, and hatred of their predecessors.

We're all just primordial slime-mold with big brains. We will continue to butt against one another, usually surviving to butt another day, but eventually committing one final grand butt that will leave what remains to the inheritance of the meek: the cockroaches.

You were made to feel worse than a cockroach so you think this way. Jesus showed you the way to what you are as your true self. We are not slime and if every adult could not be a child or had a child hidden within him Jesus would not have said that except as you be a child you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That Kingdom is all around you. It's where you go when your ego, your face, your false self dies. All your sins are forgiven because they do not exist. They are only the lies of how you were made to feel.

 

[shira]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

True. But adult humans are not newborn children. Loss of innocence is inevitable. Each new generation is force-fed the ignorance, fear, and hatred of their predecessors.

We're all just primordial slime-mold with big brains. We will continue to butt against one another, usually surviving to butt another day, but eventually committing one final grand butt that will leave what remains to the inheritance of the meek: the cockroaches.

You were made to feel worse than a cockroach so you think this way. Jesus showed you the way to what you are as your true self. We are not slime and if every adult could not be a child or had a child hidden within him Jesus would not have said that except as you be a child you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That Kingdom is all around you. It's where you go when your ego, your face, your false self dies. All your sins are forgiven because they do not exist. They are only the lies of how you were made to feel.

Moonbeam, respectfully:

What is possible and what will actually be are often not the same thing. Whether or not human kind have the potential for enlightenment and universal goodness, the reality seems to be that bulk of humanity behaves like big-brained slime-mold. I may discern dribs and drabs of order amid the rubble, but 3500 years of recorded human history lead to the inescapable conclusion that our conclusion is inescapable.

I wish you well in your lifeboat, but I just don't happen to see any vacant oceans.

 

[zephyrprime]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

Yeah but look at how much strife was needed to get to this point. Only when the prior mindset was violently discredited could the kids turn their blank slates into something different from that of their parents. It seems like every culture that comes into contact with modern western culture cannot accomodate it and it's ideas.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.
The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

You mean over 4000 years ago? Boy are you naive.


From Wiki:
The first historical record of the word "Israel" comes from an Egyptian stele documenting military campaigns in Canaan (The West bank, Palastine, Syria, and Lebonon). Although this stele which referred to a people (the determinative for 'country' was absent) is dated to approximately 1211 BC

This conflict has been going on since biblical days, and wont end in our, or our childrens lifetimes.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No I am not talking 3000-4000 years ago. I am talking about 58 years ago when the Israelies disenfranchised all the Palistinians, stole their land , and marched them into concentration camps. I am talking about the land Israel took in the 1967 war---which must be given back under UN charter---that was only 39 years ago. All that is in living memory.

Its only the Israelies who dredge up that 4000 year old stuff to justify their current occupation.

Nice try at a deflection blackaigst1---that and Israel is 100% right just won't fly anymore.
Not after what we saw of the Israelie collective punishment in Lebanon---go peddle your lies elsewhere.--people here are trying to honestly understand some of the dynamics of what drives this problem---understanding is not possible if we don't understand both sides have some legitimate argumenst for them and against them.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: shira

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

True. But adult humans are not newborn children. Loss of innocence is inevitable. Each new generation is force-fed the ignorance, fear, and hatred of their predecessors.

We're all just primordial slime-mold with big brains. We will continue to butt against one another, usually surviving to butt another day, but eventually committing one final grand butt that will leave what remains to the inheritance of the meek: the cockroaches.

You were made to feel worse than a cockroach so you think this way. Jesus showed you the way to what you are as your true self. We are not slime and if every adult could not be a child or had a child hidden within him Jesus would not have said that except as you be a child you will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven. That Kingdom is all around you. It's where you go when your ego, your face, your false self dies. All your sins are forgiven because they do not exist. They are only the lies of how you were made to feel.

Moonbeam, respectfully:

What is possible and what will actually be are often not the same thing. Whether or not human kind have the potential for enlightenment and universal goodness, the reality seems to be that bulk of humanity behaves like big-brained slime-mold. I may discern dribs and drabs of order amid the rubble, but 3500 years of recorded human history lead to the inescapable conclusion that our conclusion is inescapable.

I wish you well in your lifeboat, but I just don't happen to see any vacant oceans.

There are none. The birds hop on the ground and the wind blows through the trees. The sun casts shadows and wonderful colors of light. It is all that's left when all your tears are cried and dried up on your chest. I am not and the universe is. In the infinite silence of being ones heart beats. On the cross there is only life, only forgiveness and compassion. Life is not in the lifeboat but the market place. The 'nothingness' can't take from you what you are. We may be road kill but we can love life. This is a lifeboat with infinite capacity and all are welcome aboard.

PS: This is a lifeboat where none can be kept out who are deserving and deserving means feeling you are, knowing you are when you remember or have profound faith.

Perhaps for the Jew that means living by the Law, for the Christian knowing you are forgiven, and for the Muslim, knowing that what is has to be accepted, surrendered to, as the Will of God. All these things flow from and are facilitated by love and kindness, tenderness and mercy.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: zephyrprime

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

Yeah but look at how much strife was needed to get to this point. Only when the prior mindset was violently discredited could the kids turn their blank slates into something different from that of their parents. It seems like every culture that comes into contact with modern western culture cannot accomodate it and it's ideas.

Well you contradict yourself with Japan, no?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tequila

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

That was not a war of religion. When you are raised to hate a people because of there god that is different. Every child born in the arab nation to a parent who hates Israel/The west has no chance.

Right, the Emperor of Japan was not divine. Geez!

 

[Screech]

Lemon Law, I agree with you that the Palestinians have gotten screwed over (by who, a different debate), but on the issue of Israel stealing land in the 67 war: If the arab nations don't want to lose land, perhaps they shouldn't start wars with the intent of wiping out Israel...novel concept, eh? Regardless, the UN made a resolution following the 67 war (resolution 242, which was later made binding) which stated that Israel had to give back the land in exchange for the arab nations recognizing Israel's right to exist. We all know how well that part about Israel existing went, given that the arabs started yet another war 6 years later....

 

[Moonbeam]

These were some others of my thoughts on your post, SamurAchzar:


S: The problem is that Arabs aren't exactly the calm, peaceful, life loving residents of Colorado. You could dismiss me as a bigot, but then I could dismiss you as ignorant, as I'm the one who's living with them and know them very well.

M: I said a close perspective has been shown to produce more bias than one at a distance sometimes, related to the level of previous bias, but I also disagree with your black and white characterization of the Arab. Arabs are like any other people because they ARE people. In the first place we know that we demonize the other to allow ourselves, in good conscience, to kill them, and that we project on others, the unknown, all our hidden psychological fears. Our own intransigence and unwillingness to change that we won't admit to ourselves, we see in the other via the psychological process called projection.

S: They are not bad people, just stuck in another age in many regards.
Their mentality is as different from the western mentality as the Asian mentality is, for example, but as opposed to the Asians, they don't really adapt to the western system too well. Of course, there are exceptions, but these often find themselves in the west, as individuals.

M: What some call different may not be so different as we may have a psychological need to maintain, as I pointed our in the prior point I just made.

S: The Arab society has no democracy, no human rights, no open dialog, no free media, no open markets - nothing that constitutes a western country.
If you'll look at it closely, they don't want these things too, not yet at least. Look at Iraq, US offered them democracy on a silver plate and they rejected it violently.

M: Many of these things are all a part of Islamic law, I believe.

S: For Arabs, honor is the topmost value by which they live. It's common around here, among Israeli Arabs - who live in a Western country for the better half of a century - to murder their sisters due to violation of the family honor (e.g. sleeping with a guy outside marriage). That's just one habit.

M: It is not just a habit. It is a cultural imperative. You neighbors will hound you to death and your family will lose all respect if you don't follow this tradition. It is, however, illegal in Islamic law and purely tribal in origin, no? Americans used to hold slaves.

S: It does not make them inferior, it makes them a different culture, a proud culture that DOES NOT WANT that which you offer them. Yes, they don't want to be poor and repressed, but does it mean they are ready for Americanization of their countries? Definitely not.

M: Yes, but the fact is that communication is forcing all of us to wake up to the other. We are not inferior and let the best of cultures win, no, in the field of cultural competition?

S: The Arab leaders that did aspire to join the West were/are perceived as traitors. The Iranian Shah is the best example, but Saddat, Mubarak, Kind Abdullah, the Saud family...
Not that these individuals are otherwise symbols of integrity, but regardless, those actions seem to the Arab nations as humilating.

M: They did not get to be perceived as traitors by being paragons of western values, but by being worthless scum, no?

S: The point is that Arabs and ANY western nation can't coexist. They can't coexist in France, they can't coexist in Britain and they will surely won't coexist in Israel.

M: As I said, they co-exist pretty damn good where I live and all the kids are on the same soccer team. In the US we get lots of practice, have rewarding things to do beside kill each other, and have courts and police to put breaks on trouble. Far from perfect, mind you, but a bit intolerant of those claims it can't be done.

S: Now, again, you could dismiss all I've written. But then, you could also accept the fact that all of us aren't one universal happy nation on the face of the earth and perhaps, in a very far away place from your neighbourhood there are people who live by different standards - and like it that way.

M: I will try to change the way you think if I find your thinking is also killing your neighbor and stands in the way of that happy earth. I will seek to bring you before the bar of rational minds.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: screech
Lemon Law, I agree with you that the Palestinians have gotten screwed over (by who, a different debate), but on the issue of Israel stealing land in the 67 war: If the arab nations don't want to lose land, perhaps they shouldn't start wars with the intent of wiping out Israel...novel concept, eh? Regardless, the UN made a resolution following the 67 war (resolution 242, which was later made binding) which stated that Israel had to give back the land in exchange for the arab nations recognizing Israel's right to exist. We all know how well that part about Israel existing went, given that the arabs started yet another war 6 years later....

You wont get a respopnse from Lemon Law on this one.
Lemon law has a habit of ignoring posts where he gets taken to the cleaners.

Nice post btw!

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tequila

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

I understand what you are saying. Yet the Japanese didn`t want nor did they annouce they wanted our total destruction as a race of people.

I believe the circumstances are way different!
Always enjoy your responses though.

 

[IrateLeaf]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.

The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

I actually agree with almost everything Richard says. Almost all his responses come accross as being thought out and well prepared.

But at the same time I find many many aspect to what Moonbeam has to say thought provoking and at the very least good reading compared to most other peoples posts on these forums!

 

[Lemon law]

To Samur---of course you think Richard E's position is well thought out--because its exactly your position---but its the Arabs are 100% wrong here---come on--don't be idiotic.
Lots of wrongs on both sides.

In terms of the Moselems not co-existing in France and England---somewhat correct as they were treated like second class citizens.

But in the USA they do quite well---and Islam is our countries fastest growing religion--just don't count me as a convert.

But if you want a interesting historical perspective---look how America treated the Irish when they immegrated in mass to escape the potato famine---as a hated minority, political cartoons of the day portrayed them as subhuman apes only one cut above the black man---and less useful because they could not be usefully employed or enslaved.

Now the Irish are as American as apple pie and St. Patty's day---they dye the chicago river green and hold parades across the country. Catholics and jews were the boogey man decried from pulpits all across the American South before ww2. The point is people and cultures change over time---especially when they must co-operate in common goals.

Hate and prejeduce is learned---not inate---there are always those that will feed the hatreds---and those that hope that hatred can be defused---but those that pretend the other group is 100% wrong---only fool themselves.

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: GrGr


What has happened to the Israeli army?

:::

THE COMMON denominator of all the failures is the disdain for Arabs, a contempt that has dire consequences. It has caused total misunderstanding, a kind of blindness of Hizbullah's motives, attitudes, standing in Lebanese society etc.

I am convinced that today's soldiers are in no way inferior to their predecessors. Their motivation is high, they have shown great bravery in the evacuation of the wounded under fire. (I very much appreciate that in particular, since my own life was saved by soldiers who risked theirs to get me out under fire when I was wounded.) But the best soldiers cannot succeed when the command is incompetent.

History teaches that defeat can be a great blessing for an army. A victorious army rests on its laurels, it has no motive for self-criticism, it degenerates, its commanders become careless and lose the next war. (see: the Six-day war leading to the Yom Kippur war). A defeated army, on the other side, knows that it must rehabilitate itself. On one condition: that it admits defeat.

After this war, the Chief-of-Staff must be dismissed and the senior officer corps overhauled. For that, a Minister of Defense is needed who is not a marionette of the Chief- of-Staff. (But that concerns the political leadership, about whose failures and sins we shall speak another time.)

We, as people of peace, have a great interest in changing the military leadership. First, because it has a huge impact on the forming of policy and, as we just saw, irresponsible commanders can easily drag the government into dangerous adventures. And second, because even after achieving peace we shall need an efficient army - at least until the wolf lies down with the lamb, as the prophet Isaiah promised. (And not in the Israeli version: "No problem. One only has to bring a new lamb every day.")

THE MAIN lesson of the war, beyond all military analysis, lies in the five words we inscribed on our banner from the very first day: "There is no military solution!"

Even a strong army cannot defeat a guerilla organization, because the guerilla is a political phenomenon. Perhaps the opposite is true: the stronger the army, the better equipped with advanced technology, the smaller are its chances of winning such a confrontation. Our conflict - in the North, the Center and the South - is a political conflict, and can only be resolved by political means. The army is the instrument worst suited for that.

The war has proved that Hizbullah is a strong opponent, and any political solution in the North must include it. Since Syria is its strong ally, it must also be included. The settlement must be worthwhile for them too, otherwise it will not last.

The price is the return of the Golan Heights.

What is true in the North is also true in the South. The army will not defeat the Palestinians, because such a victory is altogether impossible. For the good of the army, it must be extricated from the quagmire.

If that now enters the consciousness of the Israeli public, something good may yet have come out of this war.

:::


Israel clearly needs to wake up and take a look in the mirror. As the author points out: "There is no military solution".

It appears to me the problem is trying to fight a politicaly correct war with unanimous world approval is a big share of the problem.
You send the soldier in and then don't let him do his job.

If his purpose for going in is not to totaly engage, kill, and destroy the enemy he cannot and will not achieve the objective.

He is not a policeman, he is not a diplomat, he is not a humanities professor, he/she is a soldier.

This is whats happening in Iraq and Lebanon.

Send the soldiers in.
Wait thats too much blood. stop the soldiers.

take out enemy sites.
Wait we are hurting thier infastructure.

Demand compliance or else.
Oh nevermind we'll give you another chance.

Launch an offensive.
Ok, hold up the offensive lets check the polls and see if there are to many casulties for public opinion.

If your going to send an army in. then go in and kick thier butt and don't stop till they are begging you for mercy.
Otherwise don't send them in at all.

I know it sounds terrible, but war should sound terrible.
War is terrible.
Thats what should make it undesirable to all.

Of course diplomacy would be a much better course in 99% of these types of actions, but the UN has never shown the guts and wisdom to get the job done. Because its membership and leadership is largely corrupt, self serving, and united on nothing.

 

[Lemon law]

Suppose some space Alien comes in and decrees that the US is the greatest threat to world peace---and tells us if there even one murder in the USA, one act of domestic terrorism within the USA, even one robbery within the USA, a new type of bomb wille exterminate all human life in all of the 50 states.

If this ultimatum were real---their would be someone within the USA who would doom us all---even if 99.999% of us were cowed into total slavish obediance.

Now tell me more about how collective punishment is effective.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I kinda like this debate -

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
M: I said a close perspective has been shown to produce more bias than one at a distance sometimes, related to the level of previous bias, but I also disagree with your black and white characterization of the Arab. Arabs are like any other people because they ARE people. In the first place we know that we demonize the other to allow ourselves, in good conscience, to kill them, and that we project on others, the unknown, all our hidden psychological fears. Our own intransigence and unwillingness to change that we won't admit to ourselves, we see in the other via the psychological process called projection.

Of course they are people, and nowhere have I implied they are genetically inferior. If you took an Arab infant and raised him in a Western culture entirely, he'd become a Westerner...

M: What some call different may not be so different as we may have a psychological need to maintain, as I pointed our in the prior point I just made.

It's a different culture, and different cultures yield different ethics, values and morals. The scale is so different here you just can't compare them to Westerners.

M: Many of these things are all a part of Islamic law, I believe.

Correct, but also the result of tribal social arrangement that has been going on... well, forever. It's interesting, but it's different. Arab regimes are based on force and dictatorship for a reason - way before the EXISTANCE of the CIA (for all those who imply US nutured these).

M: It is not just a habit. It is a cultural imperative. You neighbors will hound you to death and your family will lose all respect if you don't follow this tradition. It is, however, illegal in Islamic law and purely tribal in origin, no? Americans used to hold slaves.

Correct again. If you want to go on with the comparison to slavery, think what would happen if someone tried to change slavery after 1000 years. As part of this scenario, think that Jesus had a slave of his own. Would it be this easy, like, one civil war and a century or two of struggle for granting equal rights?

I'm not saying a change couldn't happen - it WILL happen - but it's going to take time and it should come from within the Arab nation. You can't enforce such huge changes UNLESS you go for another crusade, or drop the A-bomb Japan style. If you want to remold them, you have to shatter them first, but you can't just change them, not by normal wars and not by stirring like the CIA.

Yes, but the fact is that communication is forcing all of us to wake up to the other. We are not inferior and let the best of cultures win, no, in the field of cultural competition?

Again I agree with you, and the Internet and Sattelite TV (the biggest catalyst for a change in the Arab world) do shorten processes that could take centuries before.
But it will still take some time, and we still have this obstacle of Islamic fundamentalism that might direct the reform boat to a very wrong course. Granted, it will correct itself eventually, even on its own, but we have difficult times ahead.

M: They did not get to be perceived as traitors by being paragons of western values, but by being worthless scum, no?

As I said, none was a symbol of integrity, and it's easy to see why reverting to "pure" Islamic fundamental values was the chosen solution in many of these cases.
The thing is, Arabs could stand alot of aggression by their rulers, but when it comes to selling their honor to the west, they uproot.

The repeating theme is, they hate each other, but they hate the west more. It's the same with their attitude towards Israel, BTW.

M: As I said, they co-exist pretty damn good where I live and all the kids are on the same soccer team. In the US we get lots of practice, have rewarding things to do beside kill each other, and have courts and police to put breaks on trouble. Far from perfect, mind you, but a bit intolerant of those claims it can't be done.

I said that some individuals find their ways to the west and integrate well. Others do not. I enjoyed a conversation enroute from NY to San Diego with a former Jordanian who sat next to me. He seemed to have adopted Western values completely, but can that be said on all the Arabs who chose to live in the west? Their majorities?
Look at what happens in Britain, Rome, Madrid, Paris. It's just the beginning. They - objectively - show no will to become true residents of their hosting countries.

I will try to change the way you think if I find your thinking is also killing your neighbor and stands in the way of that happy earth. I will seek to bring you before the bar of rational minds.

It's the grim reality we have to face here.

Here's a brief summary of the state of coexistance in Israel -
In short, Arabs are mostly left alone. They don't live next to Jews, they don't pay taxes, they don't serve in the army. They enjoy some kind of under-the-table Autonomy. Their leaders, while representing them in the Knesset, show contempt to the state of Israel and some of whom even justify Nassarallah. When Hizbullah rockets hit Arab villages, the Arabs pronounced their dead children martyers, Shaids, just like suicide bombers.
The police doesn't want to deal with them, they are responsible for most of the property related crimes in Israel.

Could you imagine yourself an American town of Chinese with NO police presence, no taxes, nothing? A true no-mans-land?

They have their own ruling system, one that is based on tribes, just like in days of old.

Now tell me, how can you integrate another 2 million of those? What would happen to Israel?

 

[Doboji]

As far as I'm concerned... IF THE UN RESOLUTION IS FOLLOWED.... Israel has won this battle.

-Max

 

[daniel49]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Suppose some space Alien comes in and decrees that the US is the greatest threat to world peace---and tells us if there even one murder in the USA, one act of domestic terrorism within the USA, even one robbery within the USA, a new type of bomb wille exterminate all human life in all of the 50 states.

If this ultimatum were real---their would be someone within the USA who would doom us all---even if 99.999% of us were cowed into total slavish obediance.

Now tell me more about how collective punishment is effective.

space aliens?
Disconnect your cable for a couple of months, Your having trouble distinguishing reality from fiction.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Suppose some space Alien comes in and decrees that the US is the greatest threat to world peace---and tells us if there even one murder in the USA, one act of domestic terrorism within the USA, even one robbery within the USA, a new type of bomb wille exterminate all human life in all of the 50 states.

If this ultimatum were real---their would be someone within the USA who would doom us all---even if 99.999% of us were cowed into total slavish obediance.

Now tell me more about how collective punishment is effective.

Israel did not attack Lebanon because one Lebanese suicide bomber blew himself up in Tel Aviv. It attacked Lebanon for allowing Hizbullah to control its southern border and conduct any hostile activity it likes. And you know this just as much as I do.
It's not a case of one loon, it's a very well trained and armed group with thousand of members operating with the silent consent of Lebanon.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Suppose some space Alien comes in and decrees that the US is the greatest threat to world peace---and tells us if there even one murder in the USA, one act of domestic terrorism within the USA, even one robbery within the USA, a new type of bomb wille exterminate all human life in all of the 50 states.

If this ultimatum were real---their would be someone within the USA who would doom us all---even if 99.999% of us were cowed into total slavish obediance.

Now tell me more about how collective punishment is effective.

Israel did not attack Lebanon because one Lebanese suicide bomber blew himself up in Tel Aviv. It attacked Lebanon for allowing Hizbullah to control its southern border and conduct any hostile activity it likes. And you know this just as much as I do.
It's not a case of one loon, it's a very well trained and armed group with thousand of members operating with the silent consent of Lebanon.

QFT

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

The fault is not on the state of Israel, but the Arabs. Why would you try to create a better life for a neighbor who plots your death?

you are saying the exact same thing you did the first time, that there are only two choices, and secondly i do think that sometimes you have to try to make a better life for he who plots your death, maybe he is being made insane by some external source ..it reminds me of some types of criminals in our society who deserve a 2nd chance at life, not just a 2nd chance after committing a crime, but a true chance of having a REAL life not full of fear and misery....you have to think about this stuff in terms of future generations as well, every single time one of these conflicts erupts the terrorists multiply because their families are killed etc, the evil people they may morph into are a poor reflection of what was there before it happened

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. {deleted}

The fault is not on the state of Israel, but the Arabs. Why would you try to create a better life for a neighbor who plots your death?

Worked well as part of the Marshall Plan...didn't it? After WWII, there was no shortage of reactive German and Japanese elements that wanted to re-consititute the war as soon as they could rebuild. That is EXACTLY what happened after WWI, and allowed the Nazis to rise to power. But the munificence of the Marshall Plan eliminated the platform of reactionism, and allowed moderate elements to win the political battle for the people.

Somehow, we keep forgetting about how to best establish legitimacy for those that would assist us...

Future Shock