What has happened to the Israeli army?

[GrGr]

What has happened to the Israeli army?

:::

THE COMMON denominator of all the failures is the disdain for Arabs, a contempt that has dire consequences. It has caused total misunderstanding, a kind of blindness of Hizbullah's motives, attitudes, standing in Lebanese society etc.

I am convinced that today's soldiers are in no way inferior to their predecessors. Their motivation is high, they have shown great bravery in the evacuation of the wounded under fire. (I very much appreciate that in particular, since my own life was saved by soldiers who risked theirs to get me out under fire when I was wounded.) But the best soldiers cannot succeed when the command is incompetent.

History teaches that defeat can be a great blessing for an army. A victorious army rests on its laurels, it has no motive for self-criticism, it degenerates, its commanders become careless and lose the next war. (see: the Six-day war leading to the Yom Kippur war). A defeated army, on the other side, knows that it must rehabilitate itself. On one condition: that it admits defeat.

After this war, the Chief-of-Staff must be dismissed and the senior officer corps overhauled. For that, a Minister of Defense is needed who is not a marionette of the Chief- of-Staff. (But that concerns the political leadership, about whose failures and sins we shall speak another time.)

We, as people of peace, have a great interest in changing the military leadership. First, because it has a huge impact on the forming of policy and, as we just saw, irresponsible commanders can easily drag the government into dangerous adventures. And second, because even after achieving peace we shall need an efficient army - at least until the wolf lies down with the lamb, as the prophet Isaiah promised. (And not in the Israeli version: "No problem. One only has to bring a new lamb every day.")

THE MAIN lesson of the war, beyond all military analysis, lies in the five words we inscribed on our banner from the very first day: "There is no military solution!"

Even a strong army cannot defeat a guerilla organization, because the guerilla is a political phenomenon. Perhaps the opposite is true: the stronger the army, the better equipped with advanced technology, the smaller are its chances of winning such a confrontation. Our conflict - in the North, the Center and the South - is a political conflict, and can only be resolved by political means. The army is the instrument worst suited for that.

The war has proved that Hizbullah is a strong opponent, and any political solution in the North must include it. Since Syria is its strong ally, it must also be included. The settlement must be worthwhile for them too, otherwise it will not last.

The price is the return of the Golan Heights.

What is true in the North is also true in the South. The army will not defeat the Palestinians, because such a victory is altogether impossible. For the good of the army, it must be extricated from the quagmire.

If that now enters the consciousness of the Israeli public, something good may yet have come out of this war.

:::


Israel clearly needs to wake up and take a look in the mirror. As the author points out: "There is no military solution".

 

[Red Dawn]

Hezbollah will always be a pain in the ass and a threat to the safety of Israeli Citizens but it will never be a threat to destroy Israel and the Armies of Hezbollahs supporters, Syria and Iran, are a joke and would be no match for Israel.

 

[fallenangel99]

What happened to the U.S. military in Iraq?

 

[Drift3r]

This whole conflict was based around weakening the current anti-Syrian goverment in Lebannon. Hezbollah, Iran and Syria worked Israel and the U.S. like a puppet. Support for Hezbollah is greater now then it was before this conflict. Iran and Syria are shifting the balance of power in the region away from Sunni controlled nations back to Shiite controlled nations and Lebanon along with Iraq are two new nations where they now have a good anchors. This wasn't about destorying Israel as even Hezbollah realizes it can't accomplish this goal. It was about destorying the elements in Lebanon that would prohibt Hezbollah, Syria and Iran from being able to operate in that part of the Middle-East. A strong anti-Syrian, anti-Iran and anti-Hezbollah Lebanese goverment is bigger threat then the state of Israel.

 

[Lemon law]

The fault is not in the Israelie IDF although it badly underestimated this time.

The sea change is that rube of an arab is gone. Replaced now by determined and realistic terrorists who hate Israel for what it has done to among others the Palistinians. No longer is the agressor large Arab States, its now terrorists groups that have long range rockets and short range anti-tank weapons.

The point is the more the neighboring Arab States hate Israel, the more the funding the terrorist will get to buy modern weapons that can hurt the average Israelie man or woman man on the street.

Before, any terror threat was met by Israelie collective punishment---and the resulting hatreds could safely be ignored---now and forever after---any collective punishment will cost the State of Israel.

The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

The fault is not on the state of Israel, but the Arabs. Why would you try to create a better life for a neighbor who plots your death? Would you really want to embrace death so blindly as to help the neighbor who will destroy you? The muslims need to to decide on there own that they want to to join the modern world, and abandon the medevil mindset that they are in right now. Christianity matured (somewhat) I am sure the muslims can as well.

The one thing that is not acceptable though is pacifying the muslims, and comforting them like a mother as they try and kill you.

 

[firewall]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

Nicely said.

 

[Moonbeam]

This notion that the Israeli army is some sort of force created in heaven has seemed for a long time rather absurd to me, like setting the bar to where Bush will give a good speech. The problem with fantasy is that you can get into real trouble if you believe it. The Israeli army, like any army is, was, and will always be a bungling mess in one way or another. I think it would be as stupid to assume otherwise for the Israelis as it would be stupid for the Arabs to now suddenly think defeating Israel will now be some sort of cake walk. The Israelis army is well disciplined, trained, equipped and motivated but they are not magic nor can they be defeated by it.

 

[IrateLeaf]

The easy answer is nothing happenned.
The Israeli army fought with restraint.
Let me tell you no army in history has ever gave advacnced warning to civilians as well as after the fact mind you Hezbollah troops had ample time to move or blend in with the civilians.
You don`t use restraint in a war that you fight to win.
If I may be so bold.
They next time (and we all know that Hezbollah will do something to get a response) I would venture to saty they will fight with a calculated abandonement.
So now we wait and se if possibly suicide bombing start again.
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

 

[Moonbeam]

Everything is spin.

Israel is a mighty military machine because.....

Israel has suffered a major defeat because.....

People have faces because they are ashamed of who they are. People need lies and illusions because they do not want to be who they are. When you feel you are worce than sh!t you pretend to be a rose.

 

[Tequila]

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Tequila

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Tequila

Originally posted by: IrateLeaf
The sad part is nobody won or lost this war.
It was never finished.

The sad part is that it never will end. It's just another brief moment in the two thousand years of years of conflict between Muslims, Jews and Christians in that area.

Balls, we were butchered a few years back by the Japanese and now we are good friends. Every new born child is totally clean and free from hatred.

That was not a war of religion. When you are raised to hate a people because of there god that is different. Every child born in the arab nation to a parent who hates Israel/The west has no chance.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

The problem is that Arabs aren't exactly the calm, peaceful, life loving residents of Colorado. You could dismiss me as a bigot, but then I could dismiss you as ignorant, as I'm the one who's living with them and know them very well.

They are not bad people, just stuck in another age in many regards.
Their mentality is as different from the western mentality as the Asian mentality is, for example, but as opposed to the Asians, they don't really adapt to the western system too well. Of course, there are exceptions, but these often find themselves in the west, as individuals.

The Arab society has no democracy, no human rights, no open dialogue, no free media, no open markets - nothing that constitues a western country.
If you'll look at it closely, they don't want these things too, not yet at least. Look at Iraq, US offered them democracy on a silver plate and they rejected it violently.

For Arabs, honor is the topmost value by which they live. It's common around here, among Israeli Arabs - who live in a Western country for the better half of a century - to murder their sisters due to violation of the family honor (e.g. sleeping with a guy outside marriage). That's just one habit.

It does not make them inferior, it makes them a different culture, a proud culture that DOES NOT WANT that which you offer them. Yes, they don't want to be poor and repressed, but does it mean they are ready for Americanization of their countries? Definitely not.

The Arab leaders that did aspire to join the West were/are perceived as traitors. The Iranian Shah is the best example, but Saddat, Mubarak, Kind Abdullah, the Saud family...
Not that these individuals are otherwise symbols of integrity, but regardless, those actions seem to the Arab nations as humilating.

The point is that Arabs and ANY western nation can't coexist. They can't coexist in France, they can't coexist in Britain and they will surely won't coexist in Israel.

Now, again, you could dismiss all I've written. But then, you could also accept the fact that all of us aren't one universal happy nation on the face of the earth and perhaps, in a very far away place from your neighbourhood there are people who live by different standards - and like it that way.

 

[Lemon law]

Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.

The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.

The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

Then again, the Arabs believe Israel stole all it's land, even what was given by the UN mandate. So you claim Israel's army will never be able to defend it, as long as the Arabs believe Israel has no right to exist? Maybe. But history proves otherwise.

I hope the era of leftist, weak, apologestic goverments is over here. In the next round of this conflict Hizbullah won't have Olmert to play with, but someone serious.
Israel, just like any other Western nation, have grown tired from military casualities over the year. People forgot where they live and who are they neighbours. This is a good wake up call for the Israeli public that for living here, you must also be willing to die here. Just like 30 years ago.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.

The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

When the arabs have publicly proclaimed there goal is the destruction of Israel, and Israel still stands, there army is still superior. I ask you, who would have won if Israel had not held back? Until the Arabs change there tune of "Israel must be destroyed, the west must be destroyed" than peace will not happen. It is not up to them to tell us how to live, they must change. Until that happens, they will continue to die.

The sad part is, you aplogist and sympathisers are the only ones who care if they die, they just see it as a gate to heaven.

Again, I will make the statement that is never responded too.

If Israel were to lay down its weapons, they would be destroyed.

If the Arabs were to lay down there weapons, there would be peace.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Everything is spin.

Israel is a mighty military machine because.....

Israel has suffered a major defeat because.....

People have faces because they are ashamed of who they are. People need lies and illusions because they do not want to be who they are. When you feel you are worce than sh!t you pretend to be a rose.

What in the h3ll does this mean? LOL speak english, not psychobabble please

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Everything is spin.

Israel is a mighty military machine because.....

Israel has suffered a major defeat because.....

People have faces because they are ashamed of who they are. People need lies and illusions because they do not want to be who they are. When you feel you are worce than sh!t you pretend to be a rose.

What in the h3ll does this mean? LOL speak english, not psychobabble please

He is saying people will spin whatever they need to make a point, even when they know the point is wrong.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: SamurAchzar

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

Of course every warmongering fool has to believe in his head that the only alternative to his warmongering stupidity is total surrender in the form of turning the other cheek. Israel has allowed this conflict to fester since its founding in it us against them, Holocaust reactive way, instead of trying to create a better life for its neighbors. The wages of sin is death and he who lives by the sword dies by it. What kind of a democracy is it that demands it be a Jewish state. What is the problem with including everybody with a vote under a declaration of human rights constitution? Why base a system on a particular religion or sect instead of the dignity of all men? Of course as things are is how thay had to be. Awakening from a nightmare can only happen in the now.

The problem is that Arabs aren't exactly the calm, peaceful, life loving residents of Colorado. You could dismiss me as a bigot, but then I could dismiss you as ignorant, as I'm the one who's living with them and know them very well.

They are not bad people, just stuck in another age in many regards.
Their mentality is as different from the western mentality as the Asian mentality is, for example, but as opposed to the Asians, they don't really adapt to the western system too well. Of course, there are exceptions, but these often find themselves in the west, as individuals.

The Arab society has no democracy, no human rights, no open dialogue, no free media, no open markets - nothing that constitues a western country.
If you'll look at it closely, they don't want these things too, not yet at least. Look at Iraq, US offered them democracy on a silver plate and they rejected it violently.

For Arabs, honor is the topmost value by which they live. It's common around here, among Israeli Arabs - who live in a Western country for the better half of a century - to murder their sisters due to violation of the family honor (e.g. sleeping with a guy outside marriage). That's just one habit.

It does not make them inferior, it makes them a different culture, a proud culture that DOES NOT WANT that which you offer them. Yes, they don't want to be poor and repressed, but does it mean they are ready for Americanization of their countries? Definitely not.

The Arab leaders that did aspire to join the West were/are perceived as traitors. The Iranian Shah is the best example, but Saddat, Mubarak, Kind Abdullah, the Saud family...
Not that these individuals are otherwise symbols of integrity, but regardless, those actions seem to the Arab nations as humilating.

The point is that Arabs and ANY western nation can't coexist. They can't coexist in France, they can't coexist in Britain and they will surely won't coexist in Israel.

Now, again, you could dismiss all I've written. But then, you could also accept the fact that all of us aren't one universal happy nation on the face of the earth and perhaps, in a very far away place from your neighbourhood there are people who live by different standards - and like it that way.

Yes, I am very far away from your neighborhoos and live by different standards and like it that way. Next door is a Jordanian, behind me Chinese and white, across the street and Indian, Chinese, and Japanese family. On the other side is a red neck and a black family. On weekends we all get into our jousting gear and ride our horses up and down the street.

I do like the manner and tone of your post though. I got the impression of a sincere person who has given matters some thought. Yes though, I do think you are blind in some ways. Studies show that familiarity with a problem, having a bias that grows out of acculturation, does not make people more objective because they have closer and more intense observations and experience. It makes them less objective and more partisan. Have more to say but gotta go for now.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Richard E. is the one who most starkly poses the question by saying the fault is all 100% on the arab side. Even if the fault is only 5% Israelie--there is room for improvement.
But on that 100% thing-----Richard E. is really deep into self delusion bordering on dangerous stupidy that makes him a danger to himself and others. Are you sure
Richard E. is not actually the secret anand tech personna of none other than GWB?

Actually the problem is mainly the Israelies who still ignore the right to return.---or equal rights for all---which was the UN intent when Israel was established.
The world has now changed----its only the Israelies who delude themselves into thinking their army will forever protect them from giving back what they stole.

You mean over 4000 years ago? Boy are you naive.

From Wiki:
The first historical record of the word "Israel" comes from an Egyptian stele documenting military campaigns in Canaan (The West bank, Palastine, Syria, and Lebonon). Although this stele which referred to a people (the determinative for 'country' was absent) is dated to approximately 1211 BC

This conflict has been going on since biblical days, and wont end in our, or our childrens lifetimes.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Everything is spin.

Israel is a mighty military machine because.....

Israel has suffered a major defeat because.....

People have faces because they are ashamed of who they are. People need lies and illusions because they do not want to be who they are. When you feel you are worce than sh!t you pretend to be a rose.

What in the h3ll does this mean? LOL speak english, not psychobabble please

He is saying that people on each side talk about their glorious victory. Its the same event, but because take a completely different spin on it and its clearly obvious because those against Israel talk about Israel's humiliating defeat and those for Israel talked about how they did great job and then add in some macho male attitude of "we fought up utmost restraint"

The reason you see two such differences is because BOTH of these people need to maintain their honor and dignity. In Chinese culture, there is a saying that you "need to save your own face"...regardless of what happens to you, to others you need to appear fine. If you ever "lose your face" you lose your dignity...and to the Arabs as well as Israelis their dignity is of utmost importance, and is the reason why they see the event so differently~ the Israelis proclaiming their victory and threatening that they will "kiick more ass" (as if they don't realize they are actually killing innocents) and the Arabs who say they are the ones who came out stronger (as if they don't realize that fighting in Lebanon gave Israel to absolutely destroy lots of Lebanese infrastructure and put another Arab country behind 10-15 years of development)
Both don't want to lose their face...but both have no idea that a Shadow Preist melted their faces LOOONG ago and are now in denial

It seemed straightforeward for a moonbeam post to me

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: Astaroth33

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The lesson Israel will hopefully learn here is that they better start racheting the hatreds down.

The neighboring Islamic countries in the region would like (and have always wanted) nothing more than the utter destruction of Israel. What should Israel respond with? Rainbows, peace, love, and fluffy bunnies?

I think people don't understand how pragmatic these countries can be.

Wasn't it less than three years ago that Saudi Arabia, a country that all of us would expect to provide the most resistence considering how much anti semitic material the government produces/ed, said a full peace treaty should be offered?
What was the "price"? Going back to 1967 lines with East Jersusalem as its capital.

I personally prefer one Israel/Palestine for all, but there are too many racist people who think Israel has to be "racially pure" as if they are echoing eugenics of a 100 years ago

Originally posted by: RichardE

That was not a war of religion. When you are raised to hate a people because of there god that is different. Every child born in the arab nation to a parent who hates Israel/The west has no chance.

Okay, now you are SORELY out of the loop. The hatred towards Israel that comes from Arabs isn't because of religion. If you really beleive it is, then you need to put on a different set of glasses.

The Arab society has no democracy, no human rights, no open dialogue, no free media, no open markets - nothing that constitues a western country.
If you'll look at it closely, they don't want these things too, not yet at least. Look at Iraq, US offered them democracy on a silver plate and they rejected it violently.

Oh BS. Look at the worst country in terms of violations and you have American support propping up that government. Hard for a population to do anything when the oppressive government is gaining weaponry and torture tactics from our CIA.

US didn't offer Iraq anything. "Democracy on a Silver Platter?" HA! Democracy is not something that is handled, and I would think even the Israelis know what America's real goal in Iraq is. You guys are closer to the coflict and not as far removed and emotionless as many people are here in the US

For Arabs, honor is the topmost value by which they live. It's common around here, among Israeli Arabs - who live in a Western country for the better half of a century - to murder their sisters due to violation of the family honor (e.g. sleeping with a guy outside marriage). That's just one habit. [/b]
Every group of people values honor like crazy, this isn't strictly an Arab thing.

It does not make them inferior, it makes them a different culture, a proud culture that DOES NOT WANT that which you offer them. Yes, they don't want to be poor and repressed, but does it mean they are ready for Americanization of their countries? Definitely not.

Is Americanized the way to go? Think about that. There are many ways. Don't assume American culture fixes all. Hell, I've lived here my life and there are many things in American culture I resist. People will find their own way to Modernize, and just because they choose not to Americanize does not make them "not ready" at all. Yes I'm sure there are Arabs that want to Purely Americanize, and there are Arabs that want to go strictly to their own pure culture and work from there. But just like the Chinese eventually went: they will eventually pick and choose the positives and mix it with the positives of their own culture.

The Arab leaders that did aspire to join the West were/are perceived as traitors. The Iranian Shah is the best example, but Saddat, Mubarak, Kind Abdullah, the Saud family...
Not that these individuals are otherwise symbols of integrity, but regardless, those actions seem to the Arab nations as humilating.

The Saud family oppress their country. They let themselves indulge in conspicuous consumption, while beating down on their population. And you tell me they have joined the ranks of the West? Jordan is similar to the Sauds in terms of disparity between the elites and the have-nots. The closest example that I would agree with would be Sadat because he took what was considered good of the West and he was insanely popular.

But yes, The Sauds, the King of Jordan, etc are all traitors. They swim in their money while simultaneously oppressing their population and having the force to do it from the good ol USA.

The point is that Arabs and ANY western nation can't coexist. They can't coexist in France, they can't coexist in Britain and they will surely won't coexist in Israel.

:roll: