What happens when focused solar radiation hits radioactive material ?

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May 11, 2008
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Just a silly question to think about how to get rid of nuclear waste.

Something will happen but what ?
Are there any sweet spots when it comes to putting energy in the waste ?
What is the photoelectric effect on radioactive material ?
I know that radiation is something entirely different, but is it not possible to make use of intermediate steps to convert energy from nuclei to electricity by use of scintillation ?


For example and of course hypothetically speaking :

I would build a solar tower in a desert where nobody can live because of the extreme temperatures. As for example the Sahara in Libya or Death valley in the USA(Both locations can reach temperatures in excess of over 55 degrees Celcius). Extremely hot places i have learned. What would happen if i would focus that solar energy on radioactive material non stop ? Would something change to the half life ? During the daytime intense solar irradiation and during the nighttime a bit of processing ? .
 

Mark R

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Oct 9, 1999
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Just a silly question to think about how to get rid of nuclear waste.

Something will happen but what ?
It will get hot.

Are there any sweet spots when it comes to putting energy in the waste ?
No.

Transmutation of atoms requires a heavy particle to enter the nucleus. This can happen in 2 ways:
1. A proton, or other atomic nucleus, which is at extreme relativistic speed, collides with the nucleus. (The extreme electrostatic repulsion of nuclei, means that very high energies are required for nuclei to combine and fuse).

2. A neutron collides with the nucleus. Different materials have different 'cross-sections' to neutrons - some are almost completely transparent to neutrons (e.g. lead, zirconium), some materials are almost completely opaque (e.g. boron, gadolinium) where the nuclei absorb neutrons voraciously. Materials that are almost completely 'neutron transparent' won't absorb enough neutrons to be transmuted in any relevant quantity.

A few compnents of radioactive waste would be amenable to neutron irradiation and transmutation. However, the more important ones, e.g. 99-Tc which is a major fission product with 200kyear half life, is almost totally neutron transparent.

There is also a process of 'photodisintegration' where a X-ray/gamma photon of high energy, can fracture a nucleus, breaking off a neutron or proton.

What is the photoelectric effect on radioactive material ?
Exactly the same as for non-radioactive material.

The photoelectric effect is the ejection of an orbiting electron by absorption of a photon. The excess energy of the photon is converted into kinetic energy of the ejected electron.

For outer shell electrons, the energys are in the range of visible or UV light. For inner shell electrons, they photon energies required are in the X-ray range.

Photons are most effectively absorbed when the just exceed the energy of the electron binding energy. As the photon energy increases, the photoelectric effect becomes less likely. There comes a sudden increase in photoelectric absorbtion when the photon energy becomes sufficient to access a tighter bound electron orbit. The result is that the 'probability of photoelectric absorption' vs. photon energy curve has a 'sawtooth' shape.

There is no difference between radioactive atoms and other atoms in this regard. However, the photoelectric effect can be involved in some types of radioactive decay.

E.g. if a nucleus emits a weak gamma ray, then the gamma ray may, by the photoelectric effect, be absorbed by one of that atom's electrons, destroying the photon and ejecting the electron. This type of decay is called 'internal conversion'.

There are also more complex processes which involve the photoelectric effect, e.g. the generation of Auger electrons. If an internal conversion results in ejection of an inner shell (K-shell) electron, a higher shell electron (usually the next shell, the L-shell) can fall into the void, emitting a photon. This photon can then be absorbed photoelectrically by an outer shell electron - resulting in the ejection of the outer shell electron.

I know that radiation is something entirely different, but is it not possible to make use of intermediate steps to convert energy from nuclei to electricity by use of scintillation ?

I don't understand teh question.
 

CLite

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Dec 6, 2005
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I would build a solar tower in a desert where nobody can live because of the extreme temperatures. As for example the Sahara in Libya or Death valley in the USA(Both locations can reach temperatures in excess of over 55 degrees Celcius). Extremely hot places i have learned. What would happen if i would focus that solar energy on radioactive material non stop ? Would something change to the half life ? During the daytime intense solar irradiation and during the nighttime a bit of processing ? .

This is from a movie, it had an underground facility in Africa that vaporized radioactive/toxic waste with solar power. The name escapes me.

Hint: Don't depend on hollywood flicks for ideas.
 
May 11, 2008
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Interesting, i did expect the answers you both gave but with the exception of the movie plot. Funny that i am viewed as someone who takes his ideas from movies which is not the case at all. Perhaps it is for the best.

Thank you for your detailed reply Mar R. ^_^
But it is most interesting that an photon can be the cause of ejecting an electron. Because what have nuclei as natural tendency when it comes to having electrons ? I wonder what happens in a strong electric field with the radioactive nuclei who start to loose electrons. Does the natural instability not increase ? I would think so for some reason.

I mean, if we need hydrogen, why not start thinking about how to create it from waste we have to dispose of anyway.
 

Mark R

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Thank you for your detailed reply Mar R. ^_^
But it is most interesting that an photon can be the cause of ejecting an electron. Because what have nuclei as natural tendency when it comes to having electrons ? I wonder what happens in a strong electric field with the radioactive nuclei who start to loose electrons. Does the natural instability not increase ? I would think so for some reason.

I wouldn't necessarily think it surprising that a photon can eject an electron. When one considers the wave-partical duality principle of classical physics, perhaps it seems 'obvious'.

If one considers a photon as a particle (after all, a photon unquestionably has momentum), why shouldn't it be able to knock an electron out of position in its orbital? Don't forget that the photoelectric effect is for a 'direct' impact, where all the energy of the photon is transferred into the electron (in much teh same way as a 'direct' impact of 2 billiard balls transfers all the kinetic energy of the first into the 2nd, leaving the 1st ball stationary).

Glancing impacts are different, and the equivalent process is Compton scattering. If a high energy photon strikes an electron, then some of the energy of the photon gets transferred to the electron, and the photon emerges with reduced energy at a different angle (think of it as a billiard ball hitting another at a glancing angle - the energy of the first ball is shared amongst both, and the first ball is deflected). As the photoelectric effect becomes less frequent as photon energy goes up (PE effect is most important in the <100 keV range) - in part, because electron binding energies are mostly in teh < 100 keV range - this means Compton scattering becomes more important as photon energy increases.

Nuclei only have a natural tendency to 'collect' electrons because they are small, heavy and positively charged, and electrons are light and negatively charged. Take a postiviely charged subatomic particle, that is more massive than an electron, and it too will hold electron(s) in orbit. An example is an anti-muon, which is a positively charged particle with a mass of about 10% of a proton. It can bind an electron in an orbit, and is virtually indistinguishable for hydrogen, apart from being only 10% of the atomic mass (and the fact that an anti-muon only has a half life of a few microseconds). Even a positron and electron can orbit each other in a 'sort of atom' - but even from the naive perspective of Newtonian mechanics, one can see that this system isn't really comparable because it doesn't have a massive nucleus. The other issue is the prompt positron-electron annihilation reaction.

As it is the electrostatic force holding the electrons in their orbitals, any electrical field can remove the electrons. This is what happens in a spark or electrical arc. The electrical field pulls electrons out of outer orbitals, and attracts them to the anode. The positively charged ion (consisting of nucleus and any remaining electrons) is attracted to the cathode. With the presence of the applied electric field - you actually get a 'chain reaction' type effect. Electrons and ions get attracted by the electodes, and accelerate - colliding with other atoms, and knocking more electrons off. This is why electric arcs have the unusual property of reducing their electrical resistance as you increase the current - more current, gives more collisions, which gives more particles able to participate in current flow. To start the arc you just need an electric field strong enough to pull some electrons off the atoms in the gas.

For weakly bound electrons in the outer orbitals (e.g. metals - which are metallic by virtue of the very loosely bound outer electrons) can if heated 'evaporate' electrons off the surface, purely by virtue of the vibrational kinetic energy. They fall back promptly, attracted by the electric field, as they leave the metal with a positive charge. Of course, if you manipulate the electric field by adding a very highly positively charged anode, you can capture these evaporated electrons and direct them somewhere else - and this is how cathode ray tubes, thermionic valves, X-ray tubes, etc. work.

When you get radioactive decay, the net result, regardless of the decay type, is stirring up and the removal of electrons from atoms. We've already discsussed photon emission. But beta particles (electrons) can collide with other electrons and knock them out of their orbitals (so effectively beta and gamma radiation are virtually identical in their effects on atoms). They repeatedly hit electrons, gradually dissipating their energy - and of course, the electrons they knock out of their orbits, collide, or create other photons, as a result, a single particle, can disrupt hundreds or thousands of electrons. Alpha particles do exactly the same thing - they are big and heavy, and can knock electrons out of their orbits. As they are slow, and heavy and highly charged, they tend to be very effective at this, so release their energy via thousands of electron collisions during a journey of only a few micrometers.

During the early development of thermionic tubes/CRTs/X-ray tubes, it was quite common to add some radioactive materials to the heated cathode filament. The problem was that heating alone, wouldn't always get enough electrons off the surface to permit a decent current. By mixing in a radioactive material, the radioactive decay would stir up the electrons, giving them a boost of kinetic energy, and help them 'evaporate'. Alpha emitters (like thorium) were used because they only needed a very short range of action.

Going back to the electric arc issue, Interestingly, many arc lamps actually contain trace amounts of radioactive materials - e.g. I have some halide arc lamps, that contain traces of 85-Kr (beta emitter). The radioactive decay keeps a small number of electrons smashed off their atoms. This makes the lamp easier to start, because there are already a few electrons and ions free to be attracted by the electric field - the field doesn't necessarily have to be strong enough to rip the electrons off.

As to the nuclear stability - that's really very different to the orbiting of electrons. By and large, the nucleus is its own system, bound together by its own forces (of extremely high binding energy and strength), whereas electrons are loosely bound to the nucleus by the relatively weak electromagnetic force. The traditional teaching of classical physics is that the presence of electrons doesn't affect nuclear stability: an isolated nucleus has the same half life as a nucleus in a neutral atom, or a slightly charged ion. This is essentially true. Although, quantum mechanical models in fact predict that there can be an extremely marginal effect on nuclear stability from electron binding, where the nuclear energy level is of a similar level to electron energy levels. As you would expect, this has only been observed in a very few isotopes which are low-energy pure gamma emitters (e.g. 99m-Tc), where changing the electron configuration (e.g. by chemical reaction) can have minute effects on nuclear half life (e.g. decreasing by 0.01%). However, for all practical purposes, it can be assumed that nuclear half life is totally independent of chemcial or electron state.

I mean, if we need hydrogen, why not start thinking about how to create it from waste we have to dispose of anyway.

Regrettably, I can see no plausible way of doing that. Hydrogen is hyperabundant on earth in the form of water - and the hydrogen is easily and efficiently separated by breaking the chemical bonds. Far better to do this, than try to make hydrogen from heavier nuclei, where the energy gradient you have to work against is 10s of thousands of times higher.
 
May 11, 2008
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My main point is that we need to get rid of radioactive waste. If that may not be efficiently done, that is of no concern because comparing with storing highly radioactive waste over thousands of years, it is a non issue. Storing over thousands of years hazardous materials is a costly procedure. And more expensive then even a low efficient transmutation process. But since it cannot be done easily, reducing of radioactive waste is not going to happen anytime soon. Even though it is only small amounts compared to the billions of tons of CO2 that is created by artificial means every year and not removed. Perspective is important when looking at efficiency. I should add that i am not digging as deep into the matter as usual. I apologize for that. I am busy with programming and testing in my spare free time.
 
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Phil L

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Hello all, long time lurker but registered today to make this post. Nuclear power is something I have an interest in and would like to clarify and add a few things regarding nuclear waste and nuclear power.

My main point is that we need to get rid of radioactive waste.

When we talk about nuclear "wastes", a great deal of it is actually unused fuels. This may sound counter-intuitive, but current generation (so called Gen III) nuclear reactors, which is virtually all the existing reactors, are rather inefficient.

Here is a borrowed image from bravenewclimate.com for the fuel cycle of a 1GW Light Water Reactor (LWR)
mass_flow_lwr.jpg


As you can see, there is initially about 20 tons of enriched (3.5~5.0% U235) uranium used as "fuel" (note of course, it doesn't mean all 20 tons are radioactive initially). After 1 year, there is about 18.73 tons left, so only ~6.4% used. Reprocessing can recover a bit more materials for use, but in the end you are still left with more than 90% unspent fuel (you can only reprocess once or twice).

There are various reasons why these reactors are so inefficient, but I wont go into details here for the sake of brevity. Nevertheless, in the end, you are left with a lot of materials (both radioactive and non-radioactive) that must be disposed, which are the nuclear wastes that are troublesome to deal with. To make matter worse, radioactive plutonium 239 (made in appreciable quantities in any Gen III reactor from U-238) in the waste have half life of ~2.4e4 years, thus mandating extremely long disposal site stability requirement.

In light of the fact that most "wastes" are untapped energy sources, you may rightly think why can't we find ways to improve our fuel usage efficiency, or make the waste consisted mostly of shorter half-life isotopes? In fact that is doable, and is one of the goals of Gen IV reactors, an example of which is the proposed Integrated Fast Reactors (IFR).

In a nutshell, IFR uses fast neutrons (i.e. high energy) instead of thermal neutrons (nuclear fission naturally produces fast neutrons, which are moderated in water to "slow" down to be used in Gen III thermal reactors). At the higher energy, actinides that don't easily fission in thermal range can be made to fission (e.g. Pu-239), resulting in more fuel "burning" if you will. The waste produced by IFR consisted of mainly shorter half-life isotopes, and mandates only 300 yrs storage (10 half-life decay) as opposed to several thousand years for plutonium.

An alternative design to improve efficiency and reduce waste (but doesn't get rid of existing waste however), is the thorium reactor route. Thorium is abundant (about as common as lead), is essentially non-radioactive (all but traces of Thorium are Th-232, which has half life of 1.4e10 years), and has limited industrial uses. It is naturally mined along with rare metals, and governments actually pay to dispose/store these otherwise "useless" thorium. A thorium reactor is cited as >95% efficient in fuel utilization, and the waste requires similar amount of storage time (~300 yrs) as IFR to reach essentially background level.

Both approaches have their benefits and challenges, but could potentially lead to safer nuclear power and greatly reduced environmental impacts both in terms of nuclear waste and pollution.
 

Lemon law

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Nov 6, 2005
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When we talk about high energy photons, earths atmosphere tend to shield us from almost all of them. But the very few cosmic rays of extreme high energy do get rarely through.

Other wise high energy photons can move electrons from their orbitals temporarily, but in terms of doing anything to the atomic nuclease itself, such events will be very rare is my best guess.

Living things are far more susceptible to lower energy particles like alpha and beta particles that are classed as ionizing radiation.
 

kevinsbane

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Best way to deal with (or get rid of) high-level, long-half-life nuclear waste is nuclear transmutation - basically, bombard it with particle radiation from other nuclear reactions, forming other lower-level, shorter-half-life radioactive elements.

Modern day alchemy - working to turn "worthless" elements into lead. The old alchemists would be turning in their graves :D
 

Mark R

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Oct 9, 1999
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Best way to deal with (or get rid of) high-level, long-half-life nuclear waste is nuclear transmutation - basically, bombard it with particle radiation from other nuclear reactions, forming other lower-level, shorter-half-life radioactive elements.

Modern day alchemy - working to turn "worthless" elements into lead. The old alchemists would be turning in their graves :D

The only problem with this is that the majority of long-half life fission waste is not amenable to nuclear transmutation.

Additionally, the transmutation process also produces substantial amounts of waste. Most presented designs for transmutations systems use neutron spallation from targets bombarded by proton beams. The problem is that the amount of target material rendered high-level radioactive, vastly exceeds the amount of material successfully transmuted.
 

kevinsbane

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The only problem with this is that the majority of long-half life fission waste is not amenable to nuclear transmutation.

Additionally, the transmutation process also produces substantial amounts of waste. Most presented designs for transmutations systems use neutron spallation from targets bombarded by proton beams. The problem is that the amount of target material rendered high-level radioactive, vastly exceeds the amount of material successfully transmuted.

Particle acceleration seems like the most expensive and least efficient method of nuclear transmutation. I was under the impression that a specially designed fast breeder reactor could burn minor actinides relatively "efficiently"; that is, in addition to its normal operation of power production, it could result in a 70-90% reduction in the amount of actinides placed within it. I mean, we already do nuclear transmutation in the production of medical isotopes in certain nuclear reactors; it's not like the physics in these reactors are terribly different such that because of the extra transmutation process causes longer lived and large amounts of high-level actinides to accumulate.

Reading the literature, it seems most of the mass transmutation schemes revolve around fast-breeder concepts, rather than particle accelerator schemes. Some of the studies show that it is technically feasible to do. It may be that not all high-level, long-half-life actinides can efficiently be transmuted, but from the link above, it seems the ones that cause a major concern can all be transmutated at relatively high rates.
 
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