What happens to the old programmers?

[BikeJunkie]

Some of them are pretty smart but I've also noticed they can be pretty lazy or refuse to want to do some quality things when it comes to development.

Oh definitely - I didn't mean to say that India isn't capable of producing smart/effective people. One of the most intelligent architects I've worked with was Indian.

What it might actually boil down to is a stab at an opportunity to get out of the country. Let's face it: programming/development is a ticket out of an otherwise hot, humid, overcrowded place. Perhaps many of them wouldn't even consider IT if they were already here, so we get a deluge of people who'd otherwise go into business, marketing, whatever, but due to the opportunities IT affords them, they try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

 

[Rakehellion]

it is amusing how clueless you are about the industry, yet you claim to be doing "mindless" programming since you are 17 years old, yet you aren't a programmer. keep digging though it's fun to read.

Ooh, another "you're wrong" post without a shred of evidence to back it up. You sure showed me!

 

[purbeast0]

Yep - the last staff position I held (the one I mentioned earlier) had a huge QA department that was 100% Indian.

I really don't want to sound like I have something against Indians - they're nice people - but there just seems to be something about their culture, education system, or whatever that fails to instill an attention to detail or an appreciation for scalability/maintainability/performance. Basically, there's a very pervasive mindset that "it works right now at this very precise moment in time, so it's good to go."

depends on the market too. around here (the dc metro area) where there are tons and tons of government gigs as a contractor or sub, they CANT outsource that stuff. so there is always tons and tons of openings around here for developers (my company included) but the problem is finding good developers.

 

[rh71]

Programming is one step above tech support. You really shouldn't be doing ti past age 26. Either get a job at Best Buy or get your PhD in math so you can find a senior level position.

People making over 80k/yr, like the challenges of creating something, and don't want the headaches of managing people with random personalities are one step above tech support?

Good for you if you like working for yourself, but that also usually means longer hours.

 

[MrPickins]

No, it's the case at most companies.

What's the average programming job? Building a website? (Not really what "programmers" do) Tuning a database (Yeah, you're thinking database admin)? Those are all bullshit.

People who get to design cybernetic implants (engineers do this, not programmers) and write video game engines (yay! you actually got one!) are very few. Or maybe you have a different idea of what "mindless" is.

You don't really seem to understand what programmers actually do.

 

[Red Squirrel]

I find programming fun as a hobby, but not sure if I'd want it as a job. I'd try it if there was any programming jobs here though, but there's none. Everybody seems to outsource programming, which to me is retarded. You're better off having it in house so you can get exactly what you want, not some cookie cutter solution that's slapped together by a company that does not really care about your company.

 

[sze5003]

Oh definitely - I didn't mean to say that India isn't capable of producing smart/effective people. One of the most intelligent architects I've worked with was Indian.

What it might actually boil down to is a stab at an opportunity to get out of the country. Let's face it: programming/development is a ticket out of an otherwise hot, humid, overcrowded place. Perhaps many of them wouldn't even consider IT if they were already here, so we get a deluge of people who'd otherwise go into business, marketing, whatever, but due to the opportunities IT affords them, they try to fit a square peg in a round hole.

My only gripe I think is a lot of Indian people which I work with do the same exact work as my colleagues and I but get paid a lot more due to being contractors. One guy I worked with had his contracting company owned by his brother so he was able to get the best price per hour. And he wasn't doing anything extra that I was also doing.

Another thing is my company would only do technical interviews for contractors and because a lot of them knew people that held the contracting firm, would have relatives do the technical phone interviews for them. Then when it came to starting work the actual person who should have done the interview on the phone shows up lol.

 

[BikeJunkie]

depends on the market too. around here (the dc metro area) where there are tons and tons of government gigs as a contractor or sub, they CANT outsource that stuff. so there is always tons and tons of openings around here for developers (my company included) but the problem is finding good developers.

Yeah, I'm in Ohio - for whatever reason, we have an enormous Indian (and Somalian) presence.

My only gripe I think is a lot of Indian people which I work with do the same exact work as my colleagues and I but get paid a lot more due to being contractors. One guy I worked with had his contracting company owned by his brother so he was able to get the best price per hour. And he wasn't doing anything extra that I was also doing.

Another thing is my company would only do technical interviews for contractors and because a lot of them knew people that held the contracting firm, would have relatives do the technical phone interviews for them. Then when it came to starting work the actual person who should have done the interview on the phone shows up lol.

That's actually why I went back to consulting. The money I make as a consultant is almost obscene compared to what I made as a lead, manager, and staff architect. The money wasn't bad in those positions, but it's tough to gripe when you actually get paid for the 60+ hours you worked, versus only getting paid for 40 of them and then getting promised ghost comp time at some fictitious point in the future.

 

[MrPickins]

I find programming fun as a hobby, but not sure if I'd want it as a job. I'd try it if there was any programming jobs here though, but there's none. Everybody seems to outsource programming, which to me is retarded. You're better off having it in house so you can get exactly what you want, not some cookie cutter solution that's slapped together by a company that does not really care about your company.

There's nothing wrong with ordering a bespoke solution from a company that develops software (such as the company I work for). Most organizations don't have the experience in developing software, and don't care to.

Also, it's kind of silly to think that I wouldn't care about my client's business. If the solutions we provide don't help them succeed, they likely won't be paying for any more dev work.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

In order to find "real work", you'd have to look at blue-collar jobs.

You mean like spending your life loading boxes on trucks? Yeah, that's a great job.

 

[juiio]

Ooh, another "you're wrong" post without a shred of evidence to back it up. You sure showed me!

You have posted any real evidence either. You've just brought up your own experience as anecdotal evidence.

What's the average programming job? Building a website? Tuning a database? Those are all bullshit.

No, those aren't average programming jobs.

 

[juiio]

My only gripe I think is a lot of Indian people which I work with do the same exact work as my colleagues and I but get paid a lot more due to being contractors.

Contractors generally get paid a lot more because they get no benefits from the company. Benefits are expensive. In my area, contractors typically earn roughly 30% more (unless there is a lot of overtime being worked, of course).

 

[sze5003]

Contractors generally get paid a lot more because they get no benefits from the company. Benefits are expensive. In my area, contractors typically earn roughly 30% more.

Yea but that depends on the contracting company. Some of them give them health coverage. At least some consulting companies that I've learned about from the contractors I work with. But I like stability better than being on a contract.

 

[Murloc]

But I like stability better than being on a contract.

risk and flexibility is a factor that accounts for the higher price as well I guess.

 

[who?]

What happens is that when you get old your brain turns to mush and you reach a point when you are virtually unable to learn new things and adapt to new ways of doing things.

This is why most companies don't want to hire old people.

Your brain will work fine if you maintain aerobic fitness so the cells get properly oxygenated. There is a very high correlation between aerobic fitness and cognitive function.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

So, the consensus is ageism is alive and well in programming?

 

[Rakehellion]

You don't really seem to understand what programmers actually do.

All of those things require writing code. If you want to get your feet wet in semantics to prove a point that doesn't exist, go right ahead.

 

[Rakehellion]

You have posted any real evidence either.

Ah, the "back to you" defense. Now we're getting places!

 

[Scarpozzi]

After some experience, they should be able to start a consulting company or contract pretty easily if they're willing to move to the work.

 

[Cerb]

I'm not a programmer anymore and I never said anything about how much I make. With your reading comprehension, I'm sure there's a "3" next to the title on your ID badge.

What does that even mean? (Really...I've never had an ID badge, and probably never will)

Everybody seems to outsource programming, which to me is retarded. You're better off having it in house so you can get exactly what you want, not some cookie cutter solution that's slapped together by a company that does not really care about your company.

If those resources aren't there, it may expensive to outsource, but your other option is to create space for temporary workers that will only be full-time for the duration of initial development. The costs likely work out, in the end. In-house will almost always be better, even if the software ends up lower quality, just due to being able to talk with the people being worked for on a daily basis. It may be an expensive proposition for a gig that is meant to be short-term.

Now, if you're big enough that you could use programmers in house all the time, outsourcing probably is retarded, so long as you can competently hire. But, that's its own risk, and it's often easier/cheaper to swap out contractors than employees.

I find programming fun as a hobby, but not sure if I'd want it as a job. I'd try it if there was any programming jobs here though, but there's none.

You may very well be better off. It is very different to work for others' needs. I found that it just wasn't for me.

 

[ultimatebob]

I think it's less about the age and more about the loss of learning. I've interviewed older developers (60+) and most of them still develop as if they are working on a mainframe where a small code change takes a month to plan and execute.

Technology changes fast. People that keep up with changing technology will be valuable regardless of their age.

This. I know a 50+ year old software developer who now works as a QA tester, and he spends more time complaining about our lack of a 30 page functional spec for two weeks worth of code changes instead or trying to figure out the changes on his own.

By the time he has the changes figured out, the rest of the team has 50% of their testing already done and most of the bugs have already been found.

 

[irishScott]

Programming is one step above tech support. You really shouldn't be doing ti past age 26. Either get a job at Best Buy or get your PhD in math so you can find a senior level position.

Or you become a master of a relevant skillset and become a "go to" person at your company; most companies (at least larger ones) richly reward such individuals; but it takes dedication. Sounds like this guy was too generalized, so when he goes to apply for a specific job there was always someone else who'd dedicated themselves to that position's skillset and trumped his "little bit of everything" non-experience. Unmarried with multiple decades on the job, sounds like he wasted a lot of time he could have spent learning.

 

[HeXen]

If I was a programmer I would not work in the field anyway. I would just make programs for myself. Last thing I would want to do is program on a computer all day, every day for a living I don't care what it pays.

 

[irishScott]

If I was a programmer I would not work in the field anyway. I would just make programs for myself. Last thing I would want to do is program on a computer all day, every day for a living I don't care what it pays.

Meh, depends on what you're programming. If I'm programming displays on fancy coffee machines, then yeah I'm going to be looking to trade up. If I'm programming the instruments on the next Mars rover, things start looking a lot more pleasant.

 

[lxskllr]

I don't think I'd like programming what other people wanted unless I found it interesting also. I like making tools that make my life easier. I don't care much about your life unless I have to witness you doing something by a fucked up method an easy program would fix :^D