What happens to an honorably discharged marine who protests the war?

[RightIsWrong]

What a crock this is. I guess freedom is only something for the Iraqis today. The man put his life on the line to preserve and protect his, yours and my freedoms (going by the GWB/Right-wing talking points) and this is the thanks that he gets?

The leaders of this country had better be smart enough to just tell the marine brass to STFU and ignore this one or they will look like they are truly trying to supress all of our freedoms in this country.

Source

The nation?s largest veterans group on Friday urged the military to "exercise a little common sense" and call off its investigation of a group of Iraq war veterans who wore their uniforms during anti-war protests.

"Trying to hush up and punish fellow Americans for exercising the same Democratic right we?re trying to instill in Iraq is not what we?re all about," said Gary Kurpius, national commander of the 2.4 million-member Veterans of Foreign Wars.

"Someone in the Marine Corps needs to exercise a little common sense and put an end to this matter before it turns into a circus," Kurpius said.

A military panel in Kansas City, Mo., is holding a hearing on Monday to decide whether Marine Cpl. Adam Kokesh?s discharge status should be changed from honorable to "other than honorable" after he was photographed wearing fatigues _ with military insignia removed _ during a mock patrol with other veterans at a protest rally in April.

The Marine Corps is investigating whether Kokesh might have violated a rule prohibiting troops from wearing uniforms without authorization. Kokesh was honorably discharged following a combat tour in Iraq, but he remains part of the Individual Ready Reserve, a pool of former active duty service members in unpaid, non-drill status.

Kokesh also was cited for making a disrespectful comment to a military officer investigating the incident. His attorney, Michael Lebowitz, has called the case an effort to stifle critics of the Bush administration?s Iraq policy.

Kurpius said even an implied threat to lower the discharge rating could threaten educational and other benefits Kokesh is eligible to receive from the Department of Veterans Affairs. The action might also prevent Kokesh from future employment opportunities that require a security clearance, Kurpius said.

"We all know that people give up some individual rights when they join the military," Kurpius said. "But these Marines went to war, did their duty, and were honorably discharged from the active roles. I may disagree with their message, but I will always defend their right to say it."

Edit: And just how does his discharge get changed for something that he does when he is no longer a part of the marines? The DD2/14 is awarded to a person for their conduct while a member of the marines.

 

[1prophet]

Contrary to popular belief you are not out until your contract expires, not when you get out of active service, but reserve status as well.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Edit: And just how does his discharge get changed for something that he does when he is no longer a part of the marines? The DD2/14 is awarded to a person for their conduct while a member of the marines.

Not that I condone the harassment of prior servicemen, but a couple corrections. There's no DD2/14 and nobody is awarded one. It's a DD-214 and it's not an award and has nothing to do with your conduct. It's just the discharge paperwork.

If you're going to rant about the military, know what the fork you're talking about first.

Edit: Also, if he's IRR he's still a member of the military and still subject to their rules. I was IRR for 6 years following my active enlistment and that was true back then, I don't imagine it has changed.

 

[ScottMac]

This would be a discharge from *active* duty.
As Boberfett mentioned, you are still technically in the military and subject to the rules. He should have known that, it's covered many times throughout your time in, including the discharge interview.

Discharge status is a big deal. There are varying degress of "other than honorable", the worst being a Dishonorable Discharge (this guy wouldn't likely be up for a DD).

 

[BoomerD]

Even though is is still in the "inactive reserve" until he completes 8 years, (standard enlistment contract) he has NOT given up his rights to freedom of speech. As long as he doesn't say anything in violation of secrecy laws, he should be able to say whatever he wants. While his actions may not "reflect the best traditions of the Corps", it was not anything so bad as to deserve having his discharge changed from Honorable. A veteran of the BushWar should be able to speak out against it...he did his time in Hell...let him protest what's going on.

 

[BoberFett]

You could make that argument, but you'd be wrong. Soldiers actually do give up some freedom of speech. When I served most people I served with weren't wild about Clinton, but everyone bit their tongues and did their jobs because slandering the commander-in-chief isn't allowed.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: BoberFett
You could make that argument, but you'd be wrong. Soldiers actually do give up some freedom of speech. When I served most people I served with weren't wild about Clinton, but everyone bit their tongues and did their jobs because slandering the commander-in-chief isn't allowed.

While in active duty...I agree. Once you've been discharged however, you should be able to say wtf you choose as long as what you say doesn't violate the multitude of secrecy laws in this country.

 

[nutxo]

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Even though is is still in the "inactive reserve" until he completes 8 years, (standard enlistment contract) he has NOT given up his rights to freedom of speech. As long as he doesn't say anything in violation of secrecy laws, he should be able to say whatever he wants. While his actions may not "reflect the best traditions of the Corps", it was not anything so bad as to deserve having his discharge changed from Honorable. A veteran of the BushWar should be able to speak out against it...he did his time in Hell...let him protest what's going on.

People in the military dotn really have the same right as civilians. They have the UCMJ. I dont expect a person who has never served to fully grasp this.

 

[kingtas]

He didn't lose any freedom of speech. He could have protested the war without wearing the military uniform, thereby representing the service, while still on inactive reserve. Dumb move on his part.

 

[Sinsear]

Originally posted by: kingtas
He didn't lose any freedom of speech. He could have protested the war without wearing the military uniform, thereby representing the service, while still on inactive reserve. Dumb move on his part.

Yep. All he had to do was take it off; by taking it off he wouldn't have changed the fact that he was a vet against the war and he wouldn't even be up for this review.

 

[fornax]

Originally posted by: 1prophet
Contrary to popular belief you are not out until your contract expires, not when you get out of active service, but reserve status as well.

That is, for life (read the fine print). Poor indentured bastards.

 

[brandonbull]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Edit: And just how does his discharge get changed for something that he does when he is no longer a part of the marines? The DD2/14 is awarded to a person for their conduct while a member of the marines.

Not that I condone the harassment of prior servicemen, but a couple corrections. There's no DD2/14 and nobody is awarded one. It's a DD-214 and it's not an award and has nothing to do with your conduct. It's just the discharge paperwork.

If you're going to rant about the military, know what the fork you're talking about first.

Edit: Also, if he's IRR he's still a member of the military and still subject to their rules. I was IRR for 6 years following my active enlistment and that was true back then, I don't imagine it has changed.

They are not subject to the same rules as active duty.

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Even though is is still in the "inactive reserve" until he completes 8 years, (standard enlistment contract) he has NOT given up his rights to freedom of speech. As long as he doesn't say anything in violation of secrecy laws, he should be able to say whatever he wants. While his actions may not "reflect the best traditions of the Corps", it was not anything so bad as to deserve having his discharge changed from Honorable. A veteran of the BushWar should be able to speak out against it...he did his time in Hell...let him protest what's going on.

People in the military dotn really have the same right as civilians. They have the UCMJ. I dont expect a person who has never served to fully grasp this.

We're not talking about someone still pn active duty, this guy has completed the active duty portion of his enlistment. While he may still be considered to be subject to the UCMJ, it's generally NOT applied to those on inactive reserve, UNLESS they get recalled.
BTW, I did my 4 for the Corps...and spent 22 months of it in Da Nang...I have a pretty decent understanding of the UCMJ...Oddly enough, things like this seem to only have popped up under the Busista administration. Clinton may have had "don't ask, Don't tell", but I certainly don't remember them trying to muzzle troops after they got out. No one in the military may be permitted to bad-mouth their C in C, but once you hit the bricks...you should be free to say whatever you want.

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Even though is is still in the "inactive reserve" until he completes 8 years, (standard enlistment contract) he has NOT given up his rights to freedom of speech. As long as he doesn't say anything in violation of secrecy laws, he should be able to say whatever he wants. While his actions may not "reflect the best traditions of the Corps", it was not anything so bad as to deserve having his discharge changed from Honorable. A veteran of the BushWar should be able to speak out against it...he did his time in Hell...let him protest what's going on.

People in the military dotn really have the same right as civilians. They have the UCMJ. I dont expect a person who has never served to fully grasp this.

I see a lot of misinformation in this thread. Those in the IRR are not subject to the UCMJ, nor are they subject to standing orders of any command or the vast vast vast majority of military regulations. They are still subject to some other regulations (the full extent of which I do not know to be honest... I looked and couldn't find it.), but certainly not military law. To be honest, the only regulation I am aware of is the one to report your address so they can recall you if needed, because I still have to do that for another 4 months.

Also, someone else said there were a lot of discharges deemed "other then honorable". That is not true... there is only one. It's called an "other then honorable discharge". (clever name, huh?) The application that I always saw for that was discharge due to drug use. To apply it to someone for protesting when not on active duty would be possibly unprecedented, but certainly rare.

What is the most strange though is that the DD214 is given to you (and based off of) your behavior on active duty. In fact its full name is DD Form 214, Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty. To change that form based on actions taken while not on active duty seems very strange to me, and vindictive in nature. It's pretty fair to say if he was going to a pro-war rally in his uniform that he wouldn't be getting harrassed.

 

[WiseOldDude]

With this administration he's lucky he ain't on his way to Guantanamo.

But give the story a day or two to get off the front page and he may well be on his way. Land of the free my ass

 

[shortylickens]

Well, I did 9 years and got an honorable. I am OUT. And I got to keep my uniforms.

If any branch of the government or military harrassed me for protesting as a veteran they would be risking a law suit.
I could'nt sue the Navy while I was in the Navy but I could damn well sue them now that I'm out. Collecting VA benefits does NOT make you the governments bitch for life.

 

[ScottMac]

Originally posted by: eskimospy

Originally posted by: nutxo

Originally posted by: BoomerD
Even though is is still in the "inactive reserve" until he completes 8 years, (standard enlistment contract) he has NOT given up his rights to freedom of speech. As long as he doesn't say anything in violation of secrecy laws, he should be able to say whatever he wants. While his actions may not "reflect the best traditions of the Corps", it was not anything so bad as to deserve having his discharge changed from Honorable. A veteran of the BushWar should be able to speak out against it...he did his time in Hell...let him protest what's going on.

People in the military dotn really have the same right as civilians. They have the UCMJ. I dont expect a person who has never served to fully grasp this.

I see a lot of misinformation in this thread. Those in the IRR are not subject to the UCMJ, nor are they subject to standing orders of any command or the vast vast vast majority of military regulations. They are still subject to some other regulations (the full extent of which I do not know to be honest... I looked and couldn't find it.), but certainly not military law. To be honest, the only regulation I am aware of is the one to report your address so they can recall you if needed, because I still have to do that for another 4 months.

Also, someone else said there were a lot of discharges deemed "other then honorable". That is not true... there is only one. It's called an "other then honorable discharge". (clever name, huh?) The application that I always saw for that was discharge due to drug use. To apply it to someone for protesting when not on active duty would be possibly unprecedented, but certainly rare.

What is the most strange though is that the DD214 is given to you (and based off of) your behavior on active duty. In fact its full name is DD Form 214, Certificate of Release or Discharge from Active Duty. To change that form based on actions taken while not on active duty seems very strange to me, and vindictive in nature. It's pretty fair to say if he was going to a pro-war rally in his uniform that he wouldn't be getting harrassed.

They must have changed it in the last ~30-something years then ... Aside from the DD, there was a General discharge, Bad Conduct Discharge (one notch up from a DD), and a Medical discharge. Then, either as it's own type, or as a sub-type of General, were things like unsuitability and some other classifications that I've forgotten, mostly character or performance related. I believe there were some sub-types under Medical as well.

Doesn't matter I suppose.

FWIW

 

[fskimospy]

Originally posted by: ScottMac

They must have changed it in the last ~30-something years then ... Aside from the DD, there was a General discharge, Bad Conduct Discharge (one notch up from a DD), and a Medical discharge. Then, either as it's own type, or as a sub-type of General, were things like unsuitability and some other classifications that I've forgotten, mostly character or performance related. I believe there were some sub-types under Medical as well.

Doesn't matter I suppose.

FWIW

Oh, what I meant was that there's specifically a type called "other then honorable". All the types of discharges you mentioned are still there.

 

[WiseOldDude]

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Well, I did 9 years and got an honorable. I am OUT. And I got to keep my uniforms.

If any branch of the government or military harrassed me for protesting as a veteran they would be risking a law suit.
I could'nt sue the Navy while I was in the Navy but I could damn well sue them now that I'm out. Collecting VA benefits does NOT make you the governments bitch for life.

Ya better read the fine print, as there are some poor SOB's that also thought they were out but their butt is now in Iraq.

 

[kingtas]

I'm sure that the military lawyers didn't research anything and don't know who is subject to UCMJ. And I'm sure the commanders who wanted to pursue these charges didn't consult the lawyers who don't know anything. Us armchair lawyers all know better. Good grief.

 

[shortylickens]

Originally posted by: WiseOldDude

Originally posted by: shortylickens
Well, I did 9 years and got an honorable. I am OUT. And I got to keep my uniforms.

If any branch of the government or military harrassed me for protesting as a veteran they would be risking a law suit.
I could'nt sue the Navy while I was in the Navy but I could damn well sue them now that I'm out. Collecting VA benefits does NOT make you the governments bitch for life.

Ya better read the fine print, as there are some poor SOB's that also thought they were out but their butt is now in Iraq.

YOU better live up to your namesake.
I did 9 years and got out with an honorable. Have long since passed my 90 day recall eligibility.

Abd the print on the enlistment document is the same size throughout. You would know that if you had ever actually seen one.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I am still subject to recall even after 30 years from signing up.

Such are the limitation of starting out with bars on your shoulders instead of strips on your sleeves.

And I was recalled to active duty after seperation and also put on notice 10 years later that I could be recalled based on Desert Shield.

 

[manowar821]

How dare he have a head on his shoulders. ::GASP::

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: WiseOldDude
With this administration he's lucky he ain't on his way to Guantanamo.

But give the story a day or two to get off the front page and he may well be on his way. Land of the free my ass

How many American citizens are being held prisoner at Gitmo? I expect you'll be able to list hundreds of them... no?

 

[piasabird]

They should do this for some of the Genearals that are always yapping.

I can not say that I actually agree with this course of action. When you are out of the military you should be entitled to freedom of speech.