What gives HOA's their authority?

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DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
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I agree that having to live in a neighborhood with an HOA sucks. A lot of this suckiness can alleviated if you are willing to spend just one evening a month attending HOA board meetings and voicing your opinions. We have around 500 homes in our HOA, and besides the annual meeting, there are at most 8 homeowners in attendance not including the board.

I got involved because I didn't like the way the HOA was being run, and the neighborhood was starting to look bad as the result. I got myself elected onto the HOA board of directors 6 months ago and I've been busting heads from the beginning.

One other new member joined the HOA board at the same time. We forced a vote of no confidence of the HOA President. Even though the vote didn't pass, he resigned from the board and another new member was elected.

I forced firing of several contractors for doing poor work or ripping off the HOA. The list includes the landscaping company, the pool maintenance company, the pool monitoring company, the porter service, and finally the HOA management company for gross mismanagement. They've all been replaced with the new HOA management company starting August 1st. I didn't do it alone, but if I didn't press the replacement of vendors, the HOA board in its complacency would have continued with the same poor service. All of these new vendors are now on 1 year non-automatic renewal contracts.

In addition, I got the approval and had installed high speed internet for the pool cabana area. This also allowed me to set up two networks. One network I connected the security cameras to for off-site storage of security footage. The other is a guest network for use by homeowners at the pool.

The HOA was also paying $280 a month for keycard access for the pool area, which they had been paying on for 7 years. I got it approved and I installed a new keycard system with all new equipment which can be accessed over the web, for a total of $1,857. The system will pay for itself in 7 months.

The HOA was paying $75 a month to have a phone at the pool cabana for emergency calls. Bundled in the high speed internet which we are paying $60 plus tax a month is a phone line for emergency use. So for less than the cost of the phone, we now have phone and internet.

Overall the new vendors have been doing a great job, and looking at the budget numbers, these changes will have saved the HOA homeowners over $11,000 the first year. This savings has had an additional benefit of keeping the HOA board from raising the dues again (they've raised the dues by 10% 4 years in a row).

After the new HOA management company is in place, us 3 new members of the HOA board have decided to work on putting term limits on the board itself. The former President had been sitting on the board for 10 years, and had been President for the last 6. I don't know exactly how this will work, but something along the lines of 2 consecutive 2 year terms followed by a minimum of 2 years off the HOA board before you can run again, with a maximum of 10 years on the HOA board. But we'll see what we come up with.

We are also working on increasing the size of the HOA board from 5 members to 7. There are too few people making big decisions with just 3 board members needed to be present to have a quorum for the monthly meetings, which then makes it where only 2 votes are needed for an item to pass.

Yeah, HOA's suck. I hate them. The city mandates that every new neighborhood being developed have an HOA. When I retire and move onto several acres, I will ensure that I don't live in an HOA. But for now it is necessary for me to live where I am and not have more than an hour commute.

So I guess my point is, if you live in an HOA, get involved. You don't have to be on the HOA board to make a difference, but just showing up and voicing your opinions will make a difference.
 
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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
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Yea, we don't have an hoa here, so none of that gets handled. It's like a third world country. Burning barrels in the cul-de-sacs, cars turned over, illegals living in tents. It's a nightmare. If only we had a hoa... I often think, what this world needs is more authority. That and stormtroopers. We don't have enough stormtroopers...
I'm guessing you don't have a neighborhood pool, greenbelts, and playgrounds either. Not to mention cities also now force HOAs to handle all drainage maintenance in the subdivision.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
After the new HOA management company is in place, us 3 new members of the HOA board have decided to work on putting term limits on the board itself. The former President had been sitting on the board for 10 years, and had been President for the last 6. I don't know exactly how this will work, but something along the lines of 2 consecutive 2 year terms followed by a minimum of 2 years off the HOA board before you can run again, with a maximum of 10 years on the HOA board. But we'll see what we come up with.
Have staggered terms. Some serving two years and some serving only one year. Our mostly newly elected board duked it out among themselves to decide who was going to serve which. It could also be done by vote count or of course other ways agreed upon.
 
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Six

Senior member
Feb 29, 2000
523
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The concept of HOAs and even lot of city bylaws is retarded. People should have the right to do what they want on their own property and also build what they want. The concept of property ownership should also be that you own it 100%. Ex: city or corporations should not be allowed to take it or own mineral rights etc. When you buy land, you should own it 100%. It's yours to do what you want. Period. If someone does not like it they can go pound sand. If they think something is an eye sore well they can build a fence to block the view. I hate how cities always cater to the people who have nothing better to do than to complain about stuff in their neighbours' yards. Some HOAs will even fine people for dead trees. By dead, they really mean that they have no leaves. ...Like in winter. Seriously, it's happened.

Also people should have the right to conduct business on their property as long as they arnt causing any kind of major racket/noise/traffic. So many instances of people who are forced to demolish their garage because they fix cars or do other stuff for money and some brown noser complains to the city. There's such instance in my city that happened recently. Some guy build a pretty nice 2,000sqft garage and lives in a fairly secluded area. He's not bothering anyone. Yet city got wind of it and gave him tons of trouble for it.

In a perfect world, you are absolutely right. In the real world, everyone thinks they're perfect. Neighbor A celebrates a graduation late into the night, because it's just a one time event. Neighbor B believes it's ok to work on his car at 2am, because neighbor A was loud the other night and he didn't mind. And no one is going to be bother by power tool noises from inside his closed garage. (Neighbor B is probably deaf from all the noise.) Neighbor A thinks people shouldn't work on car at 2am, because it's noisy. Neighbor Z from way down the street thinks it's noisy too. She sleeps with the windows open and has superhuman hearing. Neighbor C thinks neighbor A and B should be more considerate and stop all noises at 9pm. Neighbor C is an early bird and mows his lawn at 7am on a Saturday morning, because it gets too hot by 8am. And then you get neighbor F who has 7 junker cars parked all over with people coming in and out at all hours of the night. Neighbor F said all his neighbors are racist against his family. I think he meant to say it's his culture to do what they're doing, and the neighbors are discriminating against his culture.
 
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DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
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Have staggered terms. Some serving two years and some serving only one year. Our mostly newly elected board duked it out among themselves to decide who was going to serve which. It could also be done by vote count or of course other ways agreed upon.
HA! I was just digging through our CC&Rs and found that we are restricted to having ONLY 3 HOA board members (we have 5). It looks like according to state law that we can amend this portion of the CC&Rs without getting homeowner approval, but it now begs the question of which 3 of the current board members are allowed to vote on the change? With 3 new HOA board members, if we were unscrupulous, we could force 2 of the old members off the board and not replace them.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,201
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www.anyf.ca
In a perfect world, you are absolutely right. In the real world, everyone thinks they're perfect. Neighbor A celebrates a graduation late into the night, because it's just a one time event. Neighbor B believes it's ok to work on his car at 2am, because neighbor A was loud the other night and he didn't mind. And no one is going to be bother by power tool noises from inside his closed garage. (Neighbor B is probably deaf from all the noise.) Neighbor A thinks people shouldn't work on car at 2am, because it's noisy. Neighbor Z from way down the street thinks it's noisy too. She sleeps with the windows open and has superhuman hearing. Neighbor C thinks neighbor A and B should be more considerate and stop all noises at 9pm. Neighbor C is an early bird and mows his lawn at 7am on a Saturday morning, because it gets too hot by 8am. And then you get neighbor F who has 7 junker cars parked all over with people coming in and out at all hours of the night. Neighbor F said all his neighbors are racist against his family. I think he meant to say it's his culture to do what they're doing, and the neighbors are discriminating against his culture.

Then those things could be dealt on a case per case bassis, instead of punishing everyone with blanket rules.

The government/authorities do that for everything now, it's ridiculous. I recall wanting to build a drone before they were even a thing. Now that everyone can easily buy one, the government regulated them to the point that you can barely use them anywhere. For the few incidents that do occur why not just deal with those as they happen instead.
 
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DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
126
Then those things could be dealt on a case per case bassis, instead of punishing everyone with blanket rules.

The government/authorities do that for everything now, it's ridiculous. I recall wanting to build a drone before they were even a thing. Now that everyone can easily buy one, the government regulated them to the point that you can barely use them anywhere. For the few incidents that do occur why not just deal with those as they happen instead.

Drones were already regulated as RC aircraft. Many of these regulations were already in place when I started the RC aircraft hobby 40 years ago. I don't remember them all but there were regulations on the maximum height above ground you could fly, how far away from high tension power lines you could fly, something on how far away from an airport (I think it was 5 miles), had to be flown within visual range of the person flying the RC aircraft, etc.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
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HA! I was just digging through our CC&Rs and found that we are restricted to having ONLY 3 HOA board members (we have 5). It looks like according to state law that we can amend this portion of the CC&Rs without getting homeowner approval, but it now begs the question of which 3 of the current board members are allowed to vote on the change? With 3 new HOA board members, if we were unscrupulous, we could force 2 of the old members off the board and not replace them.
I haven't dug into our financials (and I'd probably be lost anyway) but I do know that there is a concerted effort to reduce the dependence on the HOA's attorney. In other words, this stuff can get hairy. They end up consulting with the attorney on many things. If you're catching my drift...

The prior board did a rewrite of ours and they screwed up some things to the point that many, many homeowners were irate and voted the changes down. The primary reason for the rewrite is that our development, with 562 residences, has had three developers since its inception about 12 years ago. Everything was a mess with multiple amendments and amendments to amendments, you get the idea. The HOA was turned over to the actual homeowners less than three years ago and there is a huge mess to clean up from the perspective I outlined above.

Three board members sounds too small for a community of your size to me, but what do I know - truly. I guess the point I am making is to make sure that you're not looking at rules and regs from early on that may have been amended.

Changeover in management companies through the years can further obfuscate what's going on and that's something to keep in mind. As an example, our prior management company neglected to keep accurate financial records such that it was impossible to tell if people were actually up to date on their dues.
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
2,262
326
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I haven't dug into our financials (and I'd probably be lost anyway) but I do know that there is a concerted effort to reduce the dependence on the HOA's attorney. In other words, this stuff can get hairy. They end up consulting with the attorney on many things. If you're catching my drift...

The prior board did a rewrite of ours and they screwed up some things to the point that many, many homeowners were irate and voted the changes down. The primary reason for the rewrite is that our development, with 562 residences, has had three developers since its inception about 12 years ago. Everything was a mess with multiple amendments and amendments to amendments, you get the idea. The HOA was turned over to the actual homeowners less than three years ago and there is a huge mess to clean up from the perspective I outlined above.

Three board members sounds too small for a community of your size to me, but what do I know - truly. I guess the point I am making is to make sure that you're not looking at rules and regs from early on that may have been amended.

Changeover in management companies through the years can further obfuscate what's going on and that's something to keep in mind. As an example, our prior management company neglected to keep accurate financial records such that it was impossible to tell if people were actually up to date on their dues.
I understand what you are saying. Our HOA has had the same management company since inception in 2002. I contacted both the existing and new management companies for any and all amendments that have been made, and apparently there is no record of any changes.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
One last story and then I'll quit yakking.

It came to pass that we inherited ginormous problems related to irrigation. Lots of people weren't getting their lawns watered and common areas were experiencing it too. We hired a new landscaping company that said they could fix everything and they dropped the ball immediately. Several months into their contract they had literally accomplished nothing. This, during the dry season. They got canned.

During this time frame the rewriting of the declarations was completed and circulated to the owners prior to the annual meeting where they were to be voted upon. The board had changed the declarations such that homeowners were responsible for replacing any planting, whether grass, shrubs or trees regardless of the cause. The rub is that they, the HOA, was totally and wholly responsible for the irrigation system. A system that was to a great extent non-functional. A system that the board had been unable to hire a contractor capable of fixing! To top it off the wording was changed such that it was forbidden to water on our own. No hooking up a hose and a sprinkler to water. That was strictly forbidden.

The outrage was huge and the declarations changes were voted down.

Fortunately the outgoing board hired a new contractor that has the expertise to fix the huge mess and four months later they are almost fully complete with the restoration.

I have a lot of respect for people that will roll up their sleeves and tackle the issues an HOA has to deal with.
 
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Nov 20, 2009
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That would be fine if there was a zoning law that required that some percentage of new developments be HOA free but with the current situation unless you live in an area where a lot of development took place prior to the HOA boom of the 1970's your chance of finding an HOA free residence is very difficult.
This is no different than renting an apartment and abiding by the rules of the apartment complex. It is your choice and no one is putting a gun to your head. And please let me know of what suburban locations are tied up with a high percentage of HOA-based planned communities. I am curious. I use my own county as an example in which the population has tripled to >900K in the past 22 years. Unbridled growth and a slew of planned tract homes with HOA's abound. And yet there isn't any shortage of non-HOA communities, and one-off homes not in a neighborhood available. So while one might lead themselves to thinking there are no HOA-less communities they would be very wrong.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Yea, we don't have an hoa here, so none of that gets handled. It's like a third world country. Burning barrels in the cul-de-sacs, cars turned over, illegals living in tents. It's a nightmare. If only we had a hoa... I often think, what this world needs is more authority. That and stormtroopers. We don't have enough stormtroopers...

Oh come on, yes HOAs can have many issues, but here's the difference:
a community designed from the start as an HOA likely has amenities that wouldn't exist in a normal neighborhood. For some it may just be ornamentation like well-kept boulevards/islands, ponds, etc. Even then it's still a nice way to beautify the neighborhood, because sometimes people do get bored with the city grid life or otherwise old neighborhoods. In many though, there are pools and/or tennis courts, etc. These have to be maintained somehow.

When we have parks and whatnot nearby, the city/community is often the one who maintains it, and is directly funded from the local taxpayers.

Buying a home in an HOA is akin to settling inside the official local government boundary, be it a village, township, city, etc. And the HOA fee is a tax to provide maintenance services for the community. Otherwise whatever parks and pools were installed by developers will likely fall into ruin, because the city sure isn't. However, depending on the community you may be able to lobby the community to pay a fee for such services.

If you care not for the community assets in some neighborhood, don't buy into that neighborhood, it's that plain and simple. Unless, that is, you recognize that buying into that kind of neighborhood is going to have some bump in the cost of living. Community assets aren't free.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Then those things could be dealt on a case per case bassis, instead of punishing everyone with blanket rules.

The government/authorities do that for everything now, it's ridiculous. I recall wanting to build a drone before they were even a thing. Now that everyone can easily buy one, the government regulated them to the point that you can barely use them anywhere. For the few incidents that do occur why not just deal with those as they happen instead.

Yeah, how dare The Man for stopping anyone from doing whatever the hell they want to do, to hell with safety regulations and everyone else around me, it's a free society man!
 

lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
57,364
7,516
126
Oh come on, yes HOAs can have many issues, but here's the difference:
a community designed from the start as an HOA likely has amenities that wouldn't exist in a normal neighborhood. For some it may just be ornamentation like well-kept boulevards/islands, ponds, etc. Even then it's still a nice way to beautify the neighborhood, because sometimes people do get bored with the city grid life or otherwise old neighborhoods. In many though, there are pools and/or tennis courts, etc. These have to be maintained somehow.

When we have parks and whatnot nearby, the city/community is often the one who maintains it, and is directly funded from the local taxpayers.

Buying a home in an HOA is akin to settling inside the official local government boundary, be it a village, township, city, etc. And the HOA fee is a tax to provide maintenance services for the community. Otherwise whatever parks and pools were installed by developers will likely fall into ruin, because the city sure isn't. However, depending on the community you may be able to lobby the community to pay a fee for such services.

If you care not for the community assets in some neighborhood, don't buy into that neighborhood, it's that plain and simple. Unless, that is, you recognize that buying into that kind of neighborhood is going to have some bump in the cost of living. Community assets aren't free.
Yea, and then your door doesn't meet one of the three specified colors, and you didn't get "permission" to put the Norway spruce next to the garden. Fuck that. Free blowjobs every day aren't worth that bullshit.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
Yea, and then your door doesn't meet one of the three specified colors, and you didn't get "permission" to put the Norway spruce next to the garden. Fuck that. Free blowjobs every day aren't worth that bullshit.

I don't entirely disagree. I definitely hate the fact that I can't go with whatever window, door, or even doorknob design I want, and that's because every unit has a mirrored twin; I can get a different style but I have to coordinate with one of my neighbors.
But it's a small gripe where otherwise so much is entirely out of my hands. I don't ever have to touch my roof, it's entirely handled by the association. But even beyond that, similar restrictions are still a small price to pay (one you must knowingly understand as a real limit before purchasing inside of such a community - it should never be a surprise), considering that so much else outwardly facing tends to be handled. The entire idea isn't to severely restrict options, not in a well-managed community at least, as it really should be more about snuffing out the outliers or utterly tacky. The whole point of paying into them is to have a fairly uniform neighborhood appearance.. part of said appearance is the exteriors of your homes and your lawns. If it's an eyesore, nobody wants it. If it's complementary to the overall appeal of the neighborhood, it may be fine. But then you have the potential for issues that have been mentioned in prior posts: if one neighbor does something, others who may expect cookie-cutter may get annoyed that they get away with something and do it themselves. They may even do it tastefully. But then another neighbor just takes it too far and ruins it for everyone. So sometimes even the beautifying but still rule-breaking stuff may still get restricted just to keep the peace. Because that's the other half of the purpose for HOAs: to be a community. And when communities get overly catty with every other neighbor it can get bad. Nobody wants that. (You don't really have that aspect in normal neighborhoods because everyone understands that in them you can't really control your neighbors and there isn't a sense of community where everyone participates)
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,201
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One of the best HOA stories I heard was a ham radio operator who was being harassed for having a tower, but he found out that HOAs don't have jurisdiction over what is inside vehicles, so he bought an old pickup and mounted the tower in the bed of the truck and there's absolutely nothing they could do about it. Must have felt glorious. I think as long as the truck runs, they can't do anything.

I guess to live in a HOA area you just need to really know how to get around some of the idiotic rules. Suppose there are lawyers that specialize in this sort of thing too.

Of course it's best to not live in such area either, but if most places are HOAs then that really limits your choices when looking for a house. There should be a way people can opt out of the HOA when they buy.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,452
9,837
136
Yea, and then your door doesn't meet one of the three specified colors, and you didn't get "permission" to put the Norway spruce next to the garden. Fuck that. Free blowjobs every day aren't worth that bullshit.
These types of rules depend on the development. Most single family developments on normal lots aren't that controlling. Townhomes on the other hand are, but they need to be to look nice.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
One of the best HOA stories I heard was a ham radio operator who was being harassed for having a tower, but he found out that HOAs don't have jurisdiction over what is inside vehicles, so he bought an old pickup and mounted the tower in the bed of the truck and there's absolutely nothing they could do about it. Must have felt glorious. I think as long as the truck runs, they can't do anything.

I guess to live in a HOA area you just need to really know how to get around some of the idiotic rules. Suppose there are lawyers that specialize in this sort of thing too.

Of course it's best to not live in such area either, but if most places are HOAs then that really limits your choices when looking for a house. There should be a way people can opt out of the HOA when they buy.

Getting around the rules is NOT what living in an HOA is about. Learning to live with them, OR choosing to NOT live in HOA, are the only two appropriate approaches to life, in my opinion of course.

We have a radio nut in our condo complex too, and his car has a modestly-sized antenna array. It's not at eyesore levels, so that's fine by me. But rules like no massive antenna towers are quite fine by me. If you want to have such an eyesore, don't live in an HOA. It's really that simple. You can't have some of the benefits but not contribute.

And no, there's no opting out. That defeats the entire purpose for the HOA, because it's meant to be a covenant between everyone in the neighborhood, every single owner. If there's a few people who can do whatever the hell they want with their yards, the value of the HOA, and the home values, are going to plummet.

Nice neighborhoods and higher home values tend to go hand in hand with HOAs, and that's probably linked for some reason or another.
 
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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
One of the best HOA stories I heard was a ham radio operator who was being harassed for having a tower, but he found out that HOAs don't have jurisdiction over what is inside vehicles, so he bought an old pickup and mounted the tower in the bed of the truck and there's absolutely nothing they could do about it. Must have felt glorious. I think as long as the truck runs, they can't do anything.

I guess to live in a HOA area you just need to really know how to get around some of the idiotic rules. Suppose there are lawyers that specialize in this sort of thing too.

Of course it's best to not live in such area either, but if most places are HOAs then that really limits your choices when looking for a house. There should be a way people can opt out of the HOA when they buy.

HOAs are the result of people moving into nice areas and not maintaining their homes. If people took care of their shit and didn't let their grass grow 12", gutters fall of their homes, paint chip, etc, HOAs wouldn't be necessary. People can say "Well they bought their home and can do what they want to it!" all they want, but those folks are also free to buy in a non-HOA area and trash their homes all they want. Those people knew very well that they were moving into an HOA area so screw them for being trashy.

Are some HOA rules ridiculous? Yes. Do HOAs go overboards sometimes? Yes. However, you're given the covenant to read BEFORE you buy so if you don't read it carefully, that is your problem.
 
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Scarpozzi

Lifer
Jun 13, 2000
26,389
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I always go back to some of my wife's friends that were in a HOA situation in Florida. They had to have 2 palmetto trees on their front lawn. Well, those are finicky trees and after a few bad climate years, they had 3 of 4 that they purchased from a landscaper die....and they had to continue throwing money at it.

It's one thing if they say, "Your house must be this style" or "No multi-colored Christmas lights..." Mandating that you drop $1000-1300 for a tree that's likely not going to live....well, that's for the birds.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
126
I always go back to some of my wife's friends that were in a HOA situation in Florida. They had to have 2 palmetto trees on their front lawn. Well, those are finicky trees and after a few bad climate years, they had 3 of 4 that they purchased from a landscaper die....and they had to continue throwing money at it.

It's one thing if they say, "Your house must be this style" or "No multi-colored Christmas lights..." Mandating that you drop $1000-1300 for a tree that's likely not going to live....well, that's for the birds.

Oooph, that's a bad policy. If you want to mandate trees, they should be maintained by the association. There shouldn't be policies that mandate extreme expenditures, that's just shitty.

We had ash trees that we finally tore down about a year ago (and recently replaced with red glory maples), after years of battling emerald ash borer.

All on the association's dime. Of course it's a little different here because it's a condo association and all grounds are maintained by them.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,201
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www.anyf.ca
HOAs are the result of people moving into nice areas and not maintaining their homes. If people took care of their shit and didn't let their grass grow 12", gutters fall of their homes, paint chip, etc, HOAs wouldn't be necessary. People can say "Well they bought their home and can do what they want to it!" all they want, but those folks are also free to buy in a non-HOA area and trash their homes all they want. Those people knew very well that they were moving into an HOA area so screw them for being trashy.

Are some HOA rules ridiculous? Yes. Do HOAs go overboards sometimes? Yes. However, you're given the covenant to read BEFORE you buy so if you don't read it carefully, that is your problem.

More like the result of people who are super nosy and can't mind their own business. People should not be caring about what their neighbours are doing in their yard. I hate that governments always seem to cater to those type of petty complainers too. It's why HOAs, and ridiculous bylaws exist. Because some nosy asshole complained about something and then they make a blanket rule instead of telling the person to mind their own damn business. If someone wants to collect old cars or old toilets and grow plants in them, or not mow their lawn, that should be their right. Others should also have the right to point and laugh at how bad it looks, but they should not have the right to force them to change it.
 
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