what ever happened to water injection??

[IGBT]

I recall not long ago Holly/Edelbrock/Carter sold electronic water injection kits for automotive use. Did ODB systems end all that?? Water injection is a age old technique to increase air/fuel density for better gas mileage and better throttle response..borrowed from radial aircraft technology.

 

[iamwiz82]

Water/Meth injection is pretty common on the aftermarket side.

 

[soccerballtux]

coworker has something to say about it regarding conspiracy.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Water injection simply cools the intake charge and allows higher boost pressure in forced-induction engines. It is of effectively no use on liquid-cooled naturally-aspirated engines during extended-run scenarios due to practical concerns.

Water or methanol injection was used in WWII fighters (regardless of whether the engines were radial or vee) in order to allow temporary periods of higher than normal boost pressure from the engine's superchargers. This "War Emergency Power" setting could not be used for extended periods of time (in many cases it was limited to no more than 5 minutes) and often required that the engine be thoroughly inspected by mechanics before taking to the air again because of the great amount of extra stress that WEP put on the engines.

In automobiles, water injection is often used with turbocharging and supercharging as a means of allowing very brief periods of extra boost. Because these periods tend to last only a few seconds in street driving the additional strain on engine components from higher boost is generally accepted as minimal.

While water-injection systems can be used to allow substantial leaning out of the fuel mixture (and thereby a reduction in the amount of fuel used), running such a system continuously is impractical because of logistical problems (you'd need a water tank large enough to hold probably 10 or 15 gallons of water, you'd need an engine management system smart enough to handle what happens when a driver neglects to refill the water tank, you'd need an entire secondary injection system, etc).

Really, water injection only makes practical sense in cases where it will see very limited use. Otherwise the amount of water that would need to be carried becomes almost impossible to fit into a modern car.

ZV

 

[Pacfanweb]

It also used to be marketed as a way to prevent spark knock. But with today's infinitely adjustable ignitions, it's not necessary for that.

 

[exdeath]

It also used to be marketed as a way to prevent spark knock. But with today's infinitely adjustable ignitions, it's not necessary for that.

Well there is no point in increasing the boost, only to have the computer pull timing and run like a dog. Defeats the purpose.

Meth injection is still popular on modified boosted pump gas cars limited to 91 octane, though now superior E85 is widely available. E85 runs cooler, is higher octane, and is much less detonation prone, perhaps eliminating the need for meth injection.

It's easily plausible that today if you want to run a high boost street car in a situation you might need meth injection, you might as well go with E85 pump. Not only is it widely available enough to be considered "pump gas" but you don't have the extra consumable to worry about, and you have one less catastrophic failure point to kill your engine. Last thing you need is the meth system to run out or fail at 24 psi on 91 octane at WOT. Tick tick tick BOOM.

I LOL at the irony that E85 was created for environmental reasons, but has become the "magic go-to fuel" for high power non green street cars where 116 octane race fuel isn't available at every corner.

Another alternative is a 25-50 shot of nitrous rigged up as an intercooler sprayer. On a twin turbo 03-04 Cobra at 850 RWHP on 91 pump gas, just spraying the intercooler with nitrous from the outside (no nitrous in the intake) is good for bumping to 950 RWHP. 100 RWHP just from the increased intercooling.

 

[LTC8K6]

IIRC there was a small wire across the throttle on some ww2 planes. In order to get the WEP boost, you had to break that wire with the throttle lever, and that's how the flight crew knew you had used WEP.

Water injection is used in turbine engines as well, leading to this bizarre mistake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paninternational_Flight_112

The cause of the accident was that the tank for the water-injection engine thrust-augmentation system had inadvertently been filled with jet fuel instead of water.

 

[Zivic]

It's easily plausible that today if you want to run a high boost street car in a situation you might need meth injection, you might as well go with E85 pump.

.

IMHO a lot of reasons meth/water isn't a good solution:

1.) it's a band aide for something your setup is lacking
-> better fuel
-> too small of intercooler
-> bad tune

2.) it complicates things. Just one more thing to go wrong in an already complicated setup. not only do you have to worry about the system running out of fluid, but then you have one more thing to tune and one more thing to function properly -> failed pump, failed sensors, failed spray nozzle, etc

3.) like Ex pointed out, with the availability of E85, it doesn't make sense to run meth. you get government subsidized race fuel that allows you to run the boost you want.

 

[SuperSix]

The analog dash Turbo Regals (Grand National/etc) even have an unused idiot light "WATER INJ'.
On of the main reasons GM dropped it was the liability resulting from people not maintaining the water level in the reservoir. There were other concerns with pump maintenance, possible corrosion, etc.

 

[NutBucket]

IMHO a lot of reasons meth/water isn't a good solution:

1.) it's a band aide for something your setup is lacking
-> better fuel
-> too small of intercooler
-> bad tune

2.) it complicates things. Just one more thing to go wrong in an already complicated setup. not only do you have to worry about the system running out of fluid, but then you have one more thing to tune and one more thing to function properly -> failed pump, failed sensors, failed spray nozzle, etc

3.) like Ex pointed out, with the availability of E85, it doesn't make sense to run meth. you get government subsidized race fuel that allows you to run the boost you want.

All valid points which is why meth is only for those running on the ragged edge want that extra bit. Unfortunately, E85 is not widely available in CA or you can bet meth injection wouldn't be as popular as it is. I think there are less than a dozen stations selling it in all of SoCal. And, still a lot cheaper than running race gas.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

IMHO a lot of reasons meth/water isn't a good solution:

1.) it's a band aide for something your setup is lacking
-> better fuel
-> too small of intercooler
-> bad tune

2.) it complicates things. Just one more thing to go wrong in an already complicated setup. not only do you have to worry about the system running out of fluid, but then you have one more thing to tune and one more thing to function properly -> failed pump, failed sensors, failed spray nozzle, etc

3.) like Ex pointed out, with the availability of E85, it doesn't make sense to run meth. you get government subsidized race fuel that allows you to run the boost you want.

As Nutbucket said - its for the guys trying to reach just a little further over the line. Jlee should install one

1) I dunno bout that. A lot of guys use it even with E85, massive A2W IC, and Megasquirt tuning. Just an extra means of preventing detonation.

2) It not that complicated. Just a tank, small pump, lines, and a injector - then set it up to squirt when you want it too. With a couple fail safes its pretty easy. For example, some guys have set up a flow detection sensor on the line that once it detects that there is no flow (out of fluid, pump broke, line broke, etc) it automatically switches the computer to a different timing map. -that saves everything except a broken injector.
And besides, those guys that are running Meth Injection usually already have complicated systems and are not afraid of adding one more thing.

3) I have yet to see E85 available at the pump - have never seen it in my area.

 

[SuperSix]

IMHO a lot of reasons meth/water isn't a good solution:

1.) it's a band aide for something your setup is lacking
-> better fuel
-> too small of intercooler
-> bad tune

2.) it complicates things. Just one more thing to go wrong in an already complicated setup. not only do you have to worry about the system running out of fluid, but then you have one more thing to tune and one more thing to function properly -> failed pump, failed sensors, failed spray nozzle, etc

3.) like Ex pointed out, with the availability of E85, it doesn't make sense to run meth. you get government subsidized race fuel that allows you to run the boost you want.

#1 - Wrong - as FB said - many use it on top of E85.
#2 - The same can be said for any underhood/performance modification.
#3 - Wrong. no E85 in Central Florida, except inaccessible government pumps

 

[Zivic]

As Nutbucket said - its for the guys trying to reach just a little further over the line. Jlee should install one

1) I dunno bout that. A lot of guys use it even with E85, massive A2W IC, and Megasquirt tuning. Just an extra means of preventing detonation.

- you are talking the .01%-ers. if you are running it on a street car, you are more than likely lacking something in your setup

2) It not that complicated. Just a tank, small pump, lines, and a injector - then set it up to squirt when you want it too. With a couple fail safes its pretty easy. For example, some guys have set up a flow detection sensor on the line that once it detects that there is no flow (out of fluid, pump broke, line broke, etc) it automatically switches the computer to a different timing map. -that saves everything except a broken injector.
And besides, those guys that are running Meth Injection usually already have complicated systems and are not afraid of adding one more thing.

never said it was impossible, but it definitely adds to the complexity of things. Just one more thing that can go wrong.

3) I have yet to see E85 available at the pump - have never seen it in my area.

on the 3rd point, HAHA.. 3 out of 4 stations closest to me sell e85. easily available anywhere I go. 50-60 cents cheaper a gallon than regular (70-80 cents cheaper than premium), I only give up about 5-8% in MPG and I get about 100 extra whp out of it

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

on the 3rd point, HAHA.. 3 out of 4 stations closest to me sell e85. easily available anywhere I go. 50-60 cents cheaper a gallon than regular (70-80 cents cheaper than premium), I only give up about 5-8% in MPG and I get about 100 extra whp out of it

thats awesome. Super jealous.


the 0.01% of people who use Meth Injection?? or the 0.01% of people who work on vehicles.

 

[LTC8K6]

Most stats I have seen show that E85 capable vehicles lose about 25-30% of their gasoline mpg.

I would guess that's why it's not catching on.

Plus the hard starting in the cold, and the water problems.

The owner's manual of my brother's e85 capable 2012 Jeep has all sorts of info and precautions about actually using E85 in it.

 

[LTC8K6]

One of the things is that you have to change the engine oil more frequently when running E85.

 

[SuperSix]

on the 3rd point, HAHA.. 3 out of 4 stations closest to me sell e85. easily available anywhere I go. 50-60 cents cheaper a gallon than regular (70-80 cents cheaper than premium), I only give up about 5-8% in MPG and I get about 100 extra whp out of it

Again - good for you. The point is it's NOT readily available everywhere, and don't expect the price to stay low now that most corn subsidies have ended. And it's a lot more than a 5-8% MPG loss.

And 100 WHP? What kind of car, with what mods?

 

[Raizinman]

Back in the day, I had a 71 Z-28 with a small block Chevy engine that had an Accel Turbocharger. I had a water injection unit on it. It would kick in at two stages, one around 8 PSI boost and more water at 15 PSI. This was used to prevent knock. I only had a 1/2 gallon reservoir and it lasted for quite some time, perhaps weeks before refilling. As someone mentioned prior, in todays world of technology, this has made water injection pretty much useless.

 

[Zivic]

Again - good for you. The point is it's NOT readily available everywhere, and don't expect the price to stay low now that most corn subsidies have ended. And it's a lot more than a 5-8% MPG loss.

And 100 WHP? What kind of car, with what mods?

We saw a bump in price as some subsidies ended earlier in the year.... the trick will be when we find a decent source of ethanol, ie not corn.

I only lose about 1-2 mpg on about a 17-18 mpg base. so you can do the math.

lancer evo with an FP red. Limited to 26 psi on pump, can run 33 psi on e85 with more agressive timing and slightly leaner AFRs.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Back in the day, I had a 71 Z-28 with a small block Chevy engine that had an Accel Turbocharger. I had a water injection unit on it. It would kick in at two stages, one around 8 PSI boost and more water at 15 PSI. This was used to prevent knock. I only had a 1/2 gallon reservoir and it lasted for quite some time, perhaps weeks before refilling. As someone mentioned prior, in todays world of technology, this has made water injection pretty much useless.

It lasted a long time because, even with a turbocharged vehicle, more than 90% of your time is spent off boost. And even when you get into boost, most of the time it's not more than a couple PSI unless you're really hard on the throttle. A half-gallon lasted you a long time only because the system was almost never active. If it had been running every second the engine was on (as would be necessary for a system designed simply to allow leaning out the mixture) a half gallon probably wouldn't even last 30 miles.

ZV

 

[SparkyJJO]

on the 3rd point, HAHA.. 3 out of 4 stations closest to me sell e85. easily available anywhere I go. 50-60 cents cheaper a gallon than regular (70-80 cents cheaper than premium), I only give up about 5-8% in MPG and I get about 100 extra whp out of it

There is only one station around here that I am aware of that has E85. I don't call that "readily available everywhere." Sure, it might be by YOU but not by everyone.

Also, here it is 20 cents cheaper, maybe 30 cents when gasoline was really really high. From a cost savings perspective it doesn't add up once you factor in the lower mpg (assuming your vehicle can use it, neither of mine can but I don't really care).

 

[Zivic]

There is only one station around here that I am aware of that has E85. I don't call that "readily available everywhere." Sure, it might be by YOU but not by everyone.

Also, here it is 20 cents cheaper, maybe 30 cents when gasoline was really really high. From a cost savings perspective it doesn't add up once you factor in the lower mpg (assuming your vehicle can use it, neither of mine can but I don't really care).

within the realm of this particular discussion, we are talking about modified cars that are looking for more power via water/meth injection and e85 is alternative of sorts. and we more than likely are comparing the price of e85 to premium at the least, or more accurately to race fuel. comparing with the latter really shows how good of a value e85 is. My good mechanic friend changed from C16 to e85 with basically no compilations. still ran a 8.48 last weekend

You'd be surprised how easy your vehicle(s) could be converted..... so I say a more correct way to state your situation is, neither of my vehicles are setup to use it currently....

to go further, you may not benefit from e85, which if that were the case, you wouldn't get benefit from w/m injection either. so your point of readily available or not in your area doesn't matter despite if you care or not.

edit:
and before everyone starts stating mileage, the difference from premium to e85 in my car was <10%... now consider the price of e85 is 20% cheaper AND I have 100hp more with e85, there is no reason not to run it. everyone's situation is different, but don't start saying the mileage doesn't it make it viable alternative. Sure if you are driving a plane jane flex fuel vehicle, it likely doesn't make sense.......... but again, within the realm of this particular discussion, it more than likely does

 

[LTC8K6]

Why was your mileage loss so much less than with a flexfuel vehicle?

Tuning specifically for E85?

 

[Zivic]

Why was your mileage loss so much less than with a flexfuel vehicle?

Tuning specifically for E85?

for the most part in the tune. with the pump gas, needed to run fairly rich to be safe. with the e85, you can lean it out a bit

 

[jlee]

E85 here too...prices aren't as low as I'd like, less than 20 cents less than 87. However, it is much easier to find than race fuel, and $3.20/gal vs $8-10. 280whp on 91, 330+whp on E85. Worth it to me, for sure.

I don't have a tune optimized for leaner cruise and idle, though, so I took roughly a 30% mpg hit.