Question What does it mean, when the *lowest* CPU in your (consumer/mainstream) lineup is $300+? Yes, looking at you AM5. But this is really a larger question.

[VirtualLarry]

What if Intel, in pursuit of "the fastest consumer desktop CPU", stopped selling their designed-for-laptop "desktop" CPUs, and only started selling their HEDT line for consumer desktops, starting at $500 for an 8-core desktop CPU?

Where does this arm-race end?

I mean, I get it, R&D is expensive, and gamers dominate the DIY Desktop PC market, and surveys show that they often purchase towards the top-end chip, but is Intel 12th-Gen going to be "the last" generation of consumer CPUs available around the $100-110 price-point? (Speaking of the 12100F here.)

AMD's 4100 is no-where to be found.

Is this the beginning of the end for "cheap chips for all"?

 

[Just Benching]

So in your world view, worse than AMD's FX lineup?

Absolutely. Fx had a place, cheap MT performance. Still a bad cpu and all that, but nothing competes with rocket lake. I know, i had them both.

 

[crashtech]

AVX-512 is a draw for distributed computing for sure.

 

[Thunder 57]

Absolutely. Fx had a place, cheap MT performance. Still a bad cpu and all that, but nothing competes with rocket lake. I know, i had them both.

I think the real "winner" is Cannon Lake. So bad and broken it was barely released.

 

[Ranulf]

First, it has a much better IGP than anything Intel (I could be wrong, but at least it has one) and is definitely faster than a 5600x, so its definitely worth $120 more.

Meh, to some I suppose it is. Raw price/perf for gaming, not really.

 

[Markfw]

Meh, to some I suppose it is. Raw price/perf for gaming, not really.

Wait until reviews. If it beats the 12900k in most games as said (with a discrete GPU), it will still be worth it just for games.

Seems to me either way its a winner.

 

[Hotrod2go]

Absolutely. Fx had a place, cheap MT performance. Still a bad cpu and all that, but nothing competes with rocket lake. I know, i had them both.

Well I have them both (FX-8350) but your claim that RKL is the worse platform ever does not stack up in light of the evidence across the whole desktop market. Maybe its the case with 1% of hardcore benchmark addicts like what you see on Hwbot? Besides it depends on what your upgrading from...

PassMark - Intel Core i7-11700K @ 3.60GHz - Price performance comparison

 

[Just Benching]

Well I have them both (FX-8350) but your claim that RKL is the worse platform ever does not stack up in light of the evidence across the whole desktop market. Maybe its the case with 1% of hardcore benchmark addicts like what you see on Hwbot? Besides it depends on what your upgrading from...

PassMark - Intel Core i7-11700K @ 3.60GHz - Price performance comparison

The power consumption is absolutely ridiculous on RKL, the gaming performance sucks for tuners thanks to having to rest to gear 2 to get 4400+ ram (which was pretty easy on cometlake) and it was also slower in MT vs cometlake.

 

[igor_kavinski]

The power consumption is absolutely ridiculous on RKL, the gaming performance sucks for tuners thanks to having to rest to gear 2 to get 4400+ ram (which was pretty easy on cometlake) and it was also slower in MT vs cometlake.

It was a knee-jerk reaction to the Zen 3 shock AMD delivered directly into Intel's balls. You can't blame them for not being able to think straight. Ball trauma is no joke

 

[DAPUNISHER]

How much will OEMs building Zen4 business desktops have to pay for a 7600X, if it allows them to skip shipping a dGPU with the system (but requires them to splash out of DDR5.)

I mean, maybe some of the thought of the built-in premium revolves around being able to ship business desktops without dGPU.

Yup. The iGPU is a must have for parity with Intel in catering to OEM and S.I. partners. 2 CU 64 stream processors and full media support should cover the bases nicely. The APU lineup made the choices too few, and the CPU side somewhat lackluster compared the other AMD and Intel CPUs.

Again, it is something the 5600X did not offer at the same MSRP 2yrs ago. Haters are gonna hate, but it's a better value than the 5600X was on release. Of course It still isn't enough to make it immune to criticism. I.E.. I agree with those saying 12 threads for $300 in 'late 22 is a bit pricey.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I agree with those saying 12 threads for $300 in 'late 22 is a bit pricey.

Hopefully, AMD will backport Zen 4 to AM4, so they can extract some more cash from happy AM4 owners

Would $300 for 12 threads running on state-of-the-art 5nm silicon be acceptable then?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Would $300 for 12 threads running on state-of-the-art 5nm silicon be acceptable then?

Speaking for myself; Nope! First: it would be stuck on DDR4. Second: the 5800X 3D is down to $385 and I expect it will keep dropping before supplies run out. Third: I'd rather have the 4 extra threads and proven gaming performance in a power envelope that is exceptional compared to the competition.

 

[Ken g6]

Where does this arm-race end?

Was that a Freudian slip? Regardless, it could end in ARM MacBooks. Maybe clones of them as well. Plus, of course, phones. And a few Raspberry Pi's too if their prices ever come back down.

 

[cmdrdredd]

Uhm, you are highly confused my man. What you said applies to the context of eg. speed or pricing. Like X car can't be 100% slower than Y car (I mean it can, but then it's not moving). When it comes to time taken, the exact opposite applies. Something can be infinitely slower, but it can only be 100% faster.

If you finished a task in 5 hours, i can be 100000% slower than you, but I can't be more than 100% faster than you. That's the context I was using.

100% slower is 0 no?

Yup. The iGPU is a must have for parity with Intel in catering to OEM and S.I. partners. 2 CU 64 stream processors and full media support should cover the bases nicely. The APU lineup made the choices too few, and the CPU side somewhat lackluster compared the other AMD and Intel CPUs.

Again, it is something the 5600X did not offer at the same MSRP 2yrs ago. Haters are gonna hate, but it's a better value than the 5600X was on release. Of course It still isn't enough to make it immune to criticism. I.E.. I agree with those saying 12 threads for $300 in 'late 22 is a bit pricey.

For me it would depend on the single thread/gaming performance to decide whether $300 is expensive for that part or not. At the lower end of the CPU stack most buyers aren't looking for high thread counts. I think the reality is early adopters are paying the tax on the new socket and chipset(not to mention any new issues with the platform). Also likely AMD knows they are going to show a performance benefit over Intel initially and are going to use that as justification for the pricing a bit too. I expect prices will drop down a bit once Intel has their competing parts to market.

I'm still recommending that gamers stay with AM4 for new builds at this time because of the high cost of DDR5 and the lack of benefit the new chipset gives them. Wait it out , I don't see any games coming that will render a 5000 series CPU obsolete over the next few years. The only real benefit to waiting for AM5 or going to Intel will be increased CPU performance(since PCIe 5 doesn't benefit gaming performance much if at all) and that may not be enough to justify the increased cost, especially if we see further price reductions on AM4 parts in the coming months. This of course goes out the window for a mixed usage build where someone wants gaming performance but also needs high CPU performance and high thread counts for other work and will be looking at higher end parts anyway.

 

[LightningZ71]

Hopefully, AMD will backport Zen 4 to AM4, so they can extract some more cash from happy AM4 owners

Would $300 for 12 threads running on state-of-the-art 5nm silicon be acceptable then?

The sad reality is that they don't have to "back-port" anything to introduce a better product.

AMD could simply take the existing Zen3 CCD and migrate it to N6, something that TSMC has a clear and advertised path available for their customers with "minimal" effort. It's not like AMD has no experience with N6, having released Rembrandt (with the Zen3 core in it) and the 6400/6500XT chips on already. It even makes money sense for AMD to do so as N6 can net them more chips per wafer (increased density on the same design). It makes sense from a performance perspective as N6 can achieve slightly higher clocks at the same power. It makes sense from a power perspective as N6 can achieve the same clocks at a notably lower power draw (and commensurate heat generation). This would allow:

A 5800X that boosts higher in the same socket
A 5900X that boosts higher in all core and single core in the same socket
A 5950X that boosts markedly higher in all core in the same socket
A 5XXX series threadripper that has significantly higher all core clocks in the same socket.
A version of Milan that consumes less power at the current performance specs OR a version of Milan-F that clocks higher in the same socket and power envelope.

They could certainly continue to extract cash from AM4 owners with minimal effort and investment if they so chose.

 

[In2Photos]

I have been waiting for Zen4 before pulling the trigger on a new build. Now that CPU info is rolling in I was getting excited about the new platform. But motherboard prices have me concerned that I will have to wait a few months. Reports have the MSI x670e Carbon WiFi at $500. The $300 entry price for the CPU wasn't a deal breaker for me. But $500 for a decent, yet still considered middle of the road, motherboard might be. That puts the CPU,, RAM and mobo at $1000 plus. I have a feeling that B650 mobos won't offer anything over B550 though other than being DDR5 and maybe one PCIe Gen5 m.2 slot.

 

[jpiniero]

Hopefully, AMD will backport Zen 4 to AM4, so they can extract some more cash from happy AM4 owners

IMO I think that only ends up happening if Zen 4 doesn't sell well.

AMD could simply take the existing Zen3 CCD and migrate it to N6, something that TSMC has a clear and advertised path available for their customers with "minimal" effort. It's not like AMD has no experience with N6, having released Rembrandt (with the Zen3 core in it) and the 6400/6500XT chips on already. It even makes money sense for AMD to do so as N6 can net them more chips per wafer (increased density on the same design). It makes sense from a performance perspective as N6 can achieve slightly higher clocks at the same power. It makes sense from a power perspective as N6 can achieve the same clocks at a notably lower power draw (and commensurate heat generation).

That was discussed awhile back. I think you would have seen it by now if AMD was going to do something like that.

 

[AtenRa]

Why people want AMD to bring more SLKUs in AM4 ??? AM5 is the future why invest resources to old ecosystem.
From the new year APUs will also be released for AM5 with RDNA3 so keep looking forward not backward.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

And a few Raspberry Pi's too if their prices ever come back down.

Price? Little buggers are impossible to get hold of. Asking around I got a possible late November/December delivery date. If I'm particularly lucky. Price is a secondary concern.

 

[Just Benching]

100% slower is 0 no?

No.

It takes you 10 minutes to finish a task, and im 100% slower. Does that mean i finished in 0 minutes?

 

[DAPUNISHER]

Why people want AMD to bring more SLKUs in AM4 ??? AM5 is the future why invest resources to old ecosystem.
From the new year APUs will also be released for AM5 with RDNA3 so keep looking forward not backward.

Because it's absolutely massive. From what I have read, AMD isn't going to leave all those potential sales on the table either. Zen4 will be premium, AM4 can fill in value, so Intel doesn't completely own the space.

Heck, I posted about sales from Amazon and Newegg here, and others provided figures for Europe. Until I looked it up, I thought Intel was killing AMD on low budget kit. Forums are full of the usual suspects assuring me of Intel's uncontested superiority. But here we are, with AMD still owning the retail space. It speaks to how DIYers and small S.I.s value a mature and almost ubiquitous platform. You buy AM5, enjoy. I will be dropping new chips in to AM4 to play with, if they release them.

On another note: I fully understand that DDR4 would hold back the fantasy RDNA2 APU I blather on about, but I'd still buy it.

 

[Leeea]

No.

It takes you 10 minutes to finish a task, and im 100% slower. Does that mean i finished in 0 minutes?

No.

It means you never finished.

 

[Just Benching]

No.

It means you never finished.

OK buddy, cant help you more than I already did. You either get it or you don't

 

[igor_kavinski]

Speaking for myself; Nope! First: it would be stuck on DDR4. Second: the 5800X 3D is down to $385 and I expect it will keep dropping before supplies run out. Third: I'd rather have the 4 extra threads and proven gaming performance in a power envelope that is exceptional compared to the competition.

BUT BUT BUT think of all the old undemanding games you could play on the 7600X iGPU in a mini-ITX almost-silent form factor

 

[Leeea]

No.

It takes you 10 minutes to finish a task, and im 100% slower. Does that mean i finished in 0 minutes?

. . .

OK buddy, cant help you more than I already did. You either get it or you don't

. . .

If your at 1 unit per minute, and it takes 10 minutes to complete the task, you will have made 10 units.

If you are 50% slower, you are making 0.5 units per minute, and it takes 20 minutes to complete 10 units

75% slower, 0.25 units / minute, 40 minutes

90% slower, 0.10 units / minute, 100 minutes

99% slower, 0.01 units / minute, 1,000 minutes

100% slower, 0 units / minute, infinite minutes to complete


The key here is you used the word "slower". This implies speed, or the rate of something being done.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The sad reality is that they don't have to "back-port" anything to introduce a better product.

AMD could simply take the existing Zen3 CCD and migrate it to N6, something that TSMC has a clear and advertised path available for their customers with "minimal" effort. It's not like AMD has no experience with N6, having released Rembrandt

Rembrandt seems to have some minor core updates, I think? They could just make an 8c Rembrandt CCD on N6 without the I/O or iGPU, lash it to the same I/O die as Vermeer, and sell it as an updated product. They would have to resize the L3 but that's about it.

Why people want AMD to bring more SLKUs in AM4 ??? AM5 is the future why invest resources to old ecosystem.

AM4 is cheap. Cheap and plentiful motherboards, cheap DDR4. Rembrandt on AM5 may never see the light of day due to the new/expensive motherboards and the DDR5 tax. Remember when Rembrandt was supposed to be the launch anchor for AM5? Doesn't look like that happened, and it may never.