Question What does it mean, when the *lowest* CPU in your (consumer/mainstream) lineup is $300+? Yes, looking at you AM5. But this is really a larger question.

[VirtualLarry]

What if Intel, in pursuit of "the fastest consumer desktop CPU", stopped selling their designed-for-laptop "desktop" CPUs, and only started selling their HEDT line for consumer desktops, starting at $500 for an 8-core desktop CPU?

Where does this arm-race end?

I mean, I get it, R&D is expensive, and gamers dominate the DIY Desktop PC market, and surveys show that they often purchase towards the top-end chip, but is Intel 12th-Gen going to be "the last" generation of consumer CPUs available around the $100-110 price-point? (Speaking of the 12100F here.)

AMD's 4100 is no-where to be found.

Is this the beginning of the end for "cheap chips for all"?

 

[FangBLade]

right thx I had forgotten his nickname

Who knows, maybe it is same person, multi acc is popular nowdays , but is there any scenario where some company would create better and cheaper products with monopoly than with competition?

 

[crashtech]

...Is this the beginning of the end for "cheap chips for all"?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I haven't been doing any work in the low-end PC space for several years now, that business was contracting even well before I lost my partner who was the customer-facing side of our little PC repair and sales venture.

I think the answer is, at least for AMD, a partial yes. My opinion is that they want to solidify the impression (true or not) that they are the leader and not the follower. The higher-end parts are obviously more profitable on a per-wafer basis too, and if they can sell all they make, it's tough to make a case to cater to the low-end from a business perspective.

Something I am not sure about is how long AM4 will co-exist alongside AM5. I would presume AM4 to persist until lower-cost AM5 solutions are available? If not, it may be that AMD has just decided to cede the low-end to Intel, which again may be a marketing move. In the end AMD is profit-driven business, and that is sometimes at odds with appearing as the "good guys."

 

[AtenRa]

Who knows, maybe it is same person, multi acc is popular nowdays , but is there any scenario where some company would create better and cheaper products with monopoly than with competition?

I dont have any in mind as of now, I'll have to research if there was one at any given time, but I will have to say that Intel was not one if such a company ever existed.

 

[FangBLade]

I dont have any in mind as of now, I'll have to research if there was one at any given time, but I will have to say that Intel was not one if such a company ever existed.

ADL exist because of AMD, without AMD Intel wouldn't rush with creating so expensive architecture, skylake would be fine for another 5 years (at least). Intel not only spend billions in architecture, but in software optimizations too, big/little is drastically different philosophy in desktop world, so i really doubt that Intel would rush with it without competition from AMD.

 

[Schmide]

You already had a day one platform support with your B350 motherboard, Bristol Ridge, ZEN 1 and ZEN 1+ . Not only that, but you also got another day one platform support , a forth CPU architecture with ZEN 2 (Ryzen 3000).

fixed

edit: ironically the extra space for Bristol Ridge in the bios was a major stumbling point in the support for zen3.

 

[Asterox]

right thx I had forgotten his nickname

More precisely ShintaiDK, and he stopped writing under that name after the launch of the original Zen processors.

https://forums.anandtech.com/members/shintaidk.307779/#recent-content

 

[Just Benching]

Wait a minute, you had support for Zen, zen+, and Zen2 on your b350 - that's 3 generations. But it isn't as good as the 2 gens you get with Intel?

Zen+ wasnt a meaningful upgrade over zen 1, zen 2 was fine. Zen 3 support on b350 would have been insanely good, if it cames 540 days earlier than it did. And without the need to go on a pitchfork hunt over the forums to force amd, cause if you remember, they werent even going to allow zen 3 on x470. Meaning without pressure from forums and the media, the x470 would have only supported 2 gens in total. Just like intel.

 

[coercitiv]

Something I am not sure about is how long AM4 will co-exist alongside AM5. I would presume AM4 to persist until lower-cost AM5 solutions are available?

AMD sent signals that AM4 is to continue to exist after the AM5 launch. Lisa Su said it, Robert Hallock said it. He went as far as leaving the door open for some other "new" CPU on AM4 after the 5800X3D.

Antony: Is the 5800X3D the last processor we’ll see launched on Socket AM4?

Robert: I would say probably not. I don't really know what we plan to do with Socket AM4 but I think you saw Lisa talk about AM4 will continue, it will live on and it certainly has huge demand both from DIY builders and system customers. Could there be more AM4? Probably? But I don't have anything specific to say on that.

Keeping AM4 around during the DDR4>DDR5 transition makes a lot of sense. Right now, AM5 is more expensive at everything:

• motherboard BOM - the socket itself, signaling requirements for DDR5/PCIe 5.0 (more lanes too), VRM requirements
• memory cost (for now)
• CPU production cost (for now)

 

[Just Benching]

ADL exist because of AMD, without AMD Intel wouldn't rush with creating so expensive architecture, skylake would be fine for another 5 years (at least). Intel not only spend billions in architecture, but in software optimizations too, big/little is drastically different philosophy in desktop world, so i really doubt that Intel would rush with it without competition from AMD.

And ryzen exists because of intel 😊

 

[FangBLade]

And ryzen exists because of intel 😊

I'm glad you finally started to use your cognitive ability.

 

[Abwx]

More precisely ShintaiDK, and he stopped writing under that name after the launch of the original Zen processors.

https://forums.anandtech.com/search/362897/

He disapeared the very day Intel s massive lay offs took effects...

 

[dlerious]

Zen+ wasnt a meaningful upgrade over zen 1, zen 2 was fine. Zen 3 support on b350 would have been insanely good, if it cames 540 days earlier than it did. And without the need to go on a pitchfork hunt over the forums to force amd, cause if you remember, they werent even going to allow zen 3 on x470. Meaning without pressure from forums and the media, the x470 would have only supported 2 gens in total. Just like intel.

I guess that means Z490 and Z590 only supported 1 gen because 11th gen was an even worse upgrade over 10th gen.

 

[Just Benching]

I guess that means Z490 and Z590 only supported 1 gen because 11th gen was an even worse upgrade over 10th gen.

Yeap, 11th gen was a pig, worst cpu in recent history. Or maybe of all time for that matter.

 

[Just Benching]

I'm glad you finally started to use your cognitive ability.

Your turn 😎

 

[UsandThem]

I'm glad you finally started to use your cognitive ability.

Your turn 😎

Both of you take a day off and reread what I stated in post #73.

When you get back, add each other to your ignore lists. We are not going to deal with this here.

AT Mod Usandthem

 

[maddie]

After a few dumb explorations of the WCCFtech forum, I'm so thankful for these fora.

 

[desrever]

$300 is the new $200. Inflation is brutal.

 

[TheELF]

ADL exist because of AMD, without AMD Intel wouldn't rush with creating so expensive architecture, skylake would be fine for another 5 years (at least).

Yes, absolutely 100% this is the case, and do you now why?!
It's because the ant-trust laws don't allow you to become a monopoly even if it is because all of your competition is sitting on their thumbs not releasing anything.
You are still not allowed to release anything that would put you into a position of being a monopoly. I.E. you can't release something that is clearly better than your competition that would turn your competitors sales to zero.
The sanctions you could get from the FTC are brutal and could be devastating so no big company is taking the risk to antagonize them openly.

Understanding Antitrust Laws

Learn about antitrust or competition laws. These statutes protect consumers from predatory business practices by ensuring fair competition exists.

www.investopedia.com

Regulators must also ensure monopolies are not borne out of a naturally competitive environment and gained market share simply through business acumen and innovation.

Intel not only spend billions in architecture, but in software optimizations too, big/little is drastically different philosophy in desktop world, so i really doubt that Intel would rush with it without competition from AMD.

The thing is that we have no idea how long intel already had all of this ready to go or how long ago that was planned to be eventually made. I.E. over how many years these billions are spread.
If you think that intel came up with all of this in the last less than 4 years and managed to release it in the same less than 4 years, then what's with all the talk of intel being a slow moving dinosaur?

 

[Insert_Nickname]

More precisely ShintaiDK, and he stopped writing under that name after the launch of the original Zen processors.

He disapeared the very day Intel s massive lay offs took effects...

Oh. Yeah. That guy. Since he appeared to be Danish, we have a very appropriate phrase in Danish. Trouble is it sounds pretty pedestrian when translated; "I'm not saying there is a connection. BUT..."

 

[uzzi38]

Absolutely. But I wouldn't jump into AM5 pretending like ill get extremely great longevity. Especially after the whole x470 fiasco , I don't really trust them to keep their promise, so yeah.

If Intel are competitive you have nothing ro worry about, because we've seen that's what it takes for AMD to make pushes like they did on Zen 3 support.

Are you actually trying to tell us you don't think Intel will be competitive in the long run?

 

[DrMrLordX]

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I haven't been doing any work in the low-end PC space for several years now, that business was contracting even well before I lost my partner who was the customer-facing side of our little PC repair and sales venture.

I think the answer is, at least for AMD, a partial yes. My opinion is that they want to solidify the impression (true or not) that they are the leader and not the follower. The higher-end parts are obviously more profitable on a per-wafer basis too, and if they can sell all they make, it's tough to make a case to cater to the low-end from a business perspective.

Something I am not sure about is how long AM4 will co-exist alongside AM5. I would presume AM4 to persist until lower-cost AM5 solutions are available? If not, it may be that AMD has just decided to cede the low-end to Intel, which again may be a marketing move. In the end AMD is profit-driven business, and that is sometimes at odds with appearing as the "good guys."

Your analysis is overall correct. AMD has indicated quite clearly that they are not going to be the cheap option anymore. Desktop is getting the scraps of workstation/server. They are taking mobile a lot more seriously now with yearly releases, even if plebian retail buyers can't actually buy anything for months after release. Desktop is stuck waiting 18+ months between releases, and the prices are high. If you want a budget product you're left chasing ephemeral APUs based on aging mobile chips or last-gen products.

Yes, absolutely 100% this is the case, and do you now why?!
It's because the ant-trust laws don't allow you to become a monopoly even if it is because all of your competition is sitting on their thumbs not releasing anything.
You are still not allowed to release anything that would put you into a position of being a monopoly. I.E. you can't release something that is clearly better than your competition that would turn your competitors sales to zero.
The sanctions you could get from the FTC are brutal and could be devastating so no big company is taking the risk to antagonize them openly.

What is your actual point? That Intel has fallen on hard times because the FTC prevented them from innovating? Please. We all know what happened to Intel: they gutted their engineering team slowly but surely while stumbling in new markets.

 

[Hotrod2go]

Yeap, 11th gen was a pig, worst cpu in recent history. Or maybe of all time for that matter.

So in your world view, worse than AMD's FX lineup?

 

[DrMrLordX]

So in your world view, worse than AMD's FX lineup?

Or worse than one of VIA/Zhaoxin's offerings, lol

 

[Hotrod2go]

What if Intel, in pursuit of "the fastest consumer desktop CPU", stopped selling their designed-for-laptop "desktop" CPUs, and only started selling their HEDT line for consumer desktops, starting at $500 for an 8-core desktop CPU?

Where does this arm-race end?

I mean, I get it, R&D is expensive, and gamers dominate the DIY Desktop PC market, and surveys show that they often purchase towards the top-end chip, but is Intel 12th-Gen going to be "the last" generation of consumer CPUs available around the $100-110 price-point? (Speaking of the 12100F here.)

AMD's 4100 is no-where to be found.

Is this the beginning of the end for "cheap chips for all"?

Ryzen 3 4100 still freely available over here in Australia.

 

[igor_kavinski]

What is your actual point? That Intel has fallen on hard times because the FTC prevented them from innovating? Please. We all know what happened to Intel: they gutted their engineering team slowly but surely while stumbling in new markets.

I think the point he might be trying to make is that Intel has everything ready but it is SOOOO cutting edge and awesome that bringing it to market WOULD put AMD out of business. Hence, they have to hold back and let AMD thrive a bit to avoid billions in FTC fines.

So SRapids is super ready. Intel's supercomputer using that CPU just needs the power button to be pressed. They are just waiting for the FTC to let them turn it on

Frankly, this is the most fun theory I've heard yet about the troubles with Intel's execution. I guess if we applied this to sports, the fastest runner would have to slow down just before the finish line so the others can catch up