What do I need for whole house audio/theater

[EliteRetard]

Parents just got a fancy house thats setup/wired with speakers throughout the house. About 20 of em it looks like. How would you get these all hooked up and running with radio/mp3 or perhaps streaming online music? Normally youd get a receiver, but theres no way making it "surround sound" (just need stereo sound I think) would work and there aint enough hookups anyway. What do I need for something like this? Also theyve got a ~40" plasma but have never used it for anything more than basic cable...and theyre actually fine with that. Theyre always out doing stuff, but like to come home and watch news. Theyre actually dissapointed with the selection of news channels and find most stuff on TV is crap. If they ever do get stuck inside and want to hang out they get a movie to watch. Im wondering if there is a way to get a computer to run the TV and just screw paying for cable...I thought about one of those nettop things with wireless internet, but I dont know if it could get any channels for free or if there are any good online stations for things like news/politics/science (they like documentaries too). They like the sound of being able to run a computer on the TV for things like showing photos, and the ability to watch streaming video. Other thing is they could get something like netflix and rent DVD/Blueray but need a system that could run that. Their primary computer is an old P4 2.4GHz I built them years ago, so maybe I could find a small for factor PC they could hide somehow and use it to drive the TV/Entertainment center and also use it as a replacement for the system they have now (mostly the basic web/office type stuff)

Oh and one weird thing, the entertainment room where the TV and whatnot goes is the only one not wired for sound. They REALLY DO NOT want wires running all over (its a nice place remember) and were even thinking about wireless for the sound system. They dont care for crazy sound...theyre happy with a 100$ HTIB and only want to replace it because its wired. Dont know squat about wireless speakers (dont they need a power cable?).

So Im trying to figure out the least complicated (and preferably lower cost) way to make this all work but some of the parts I dont even know what I need yet (like sound stuff). Any advice?

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

Are the ceiling speakers already powered (aka do they have internal amps or have an external amp somewhere in the house connected to them already)?

Also, I would not recommend getting wireless speakers. There is no such thing as a true wireless speaker. It will still need at least a power cord. Speaker wire is easier to conceal than a power cord. So stay with the HTiB (or upgrade to better wired speakers) and run the speaker wire under the carpet, in a cable runner, or through the walls.

 

[SlickSnake]

20 speakers already wired up is great, but you are going to need multiple amps to drive them properly, just for starts. It's not even possible to recommend multichannel amps without knowing what the speakers are or what the max wattages and ohms are.

Your questions are pretty much running the gamut of audio and HT, and if this was your first stop for help, maybe you need to go read up on another more specialized forum for the in depth answers you need.

Try http://www.avsforum.com/ and read up on some equipment and whole house installs people did there.

 

[EliteRetard]

So Im still lost on this...AVS is a massive scrambled mess of junk, and I dont know how to filter it for the stuff relating to what I need. Is there a search function that Im totally missing?

What am I supposed to be looking for with the speakers? There seems to be a section near the entertainment room where all the cables end up (big ol hole in the wall with a cap)...but havnt really had a chance to scour the place yet. Some rooms have volume controls for the speakers...I dont know if that means anything. How do I figure out what I need to know, should I just pull one of the speaker out of the ceiling and try to find some numbers?

No comments on running video/audio with a computer? Or is it really complicated?

 

[SlickSnake]

So Im still lost on this...AVS is a massive scrambled mess of junk, and I dont know how to filter it for the stuff relating to what I need. Is there a search function that Im totally missing?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=10/

What am I supposed to be looking for with the speakers? There seems to be a section near the entertainment room where all the cables end up (big ol hole in the wall with a cap)...but havnt really had a chance to scour the place yet. Some rooms have volume controls for the speakers...I dont know if that means anything. How do I figure out what I need to know, should I just pull one of the speaker out of the ceiling and try to find some numbers?

Yes. You need to know the ohms and the max speaker watts and try to match the power amplification to those specs, or you will possibly ruin the speakers.

No comments on running video/audio with a computer? Or is it really complicated?

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=26/

Not all that complicated, you just need to have the HTPC located in a spot where you can run the shortest possible length of cables back to the TV. You may have video signal degradation on long runs otherwise.

There's other threads here on that subject. I never set one up myself yet.

 

[EliteRetard]

OK, so no new info on the in ceiling speakers...just that they are "top of the line". I tried tearing one out (way harder than it looked...Ill have to fix that now) and didnt get any info, ended up contacting the builder and he didnt even know anything. Just that this was a model home so he went top of the line on everything. Aparently the huge bundle of wires is for a bunch of things. There are just four wires for the whole house audio, a pair for each of the two speakers in each room. That makes sense. Aparently he just had em hooked up to a radio when presenting the place. What would be a decent "receiver" or whatnot for this? Since its whole house audio in just stereo I dont see the need or reason to hook it up to a fancy sound setup. All theyre looking for anyway is pretty much radio with the possibility to plug in like an MP3 player or something. The leads are just regular ol audio cable, not RCA or anything. I dont think Ive even seen a radio unit with auxillary in and stero speaker outputs. How about HD radio, thats like digital radio right? Not the satalite stuff that costs monthly. Would digital (HD) radio get better reception?

Then theres the sound setup for the entertainment/living room, its pre-wired for 5.1 so we do need a unit for that (unless there is a unit that can handle both surround sound duties AND stero output duties). Ill probably make a seperate thread for that...normally Id do some researching myself but Im VERY internet limited right now (30min a day). Budget is as small as possible. They were happy with a small HTIB system before, but do need something a bit better for this much larger space.

 

[unfalliblekrutch]

You could get a stereo amp and hook up all of those speakers in series, perhaps. Or some combination of series/parallel, but note that if you do this you wont be able to select which speakers play. If you want to be able to select individual speakers (rooms?) to play, you'll need a speaker selector like this:
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Rocketfi...&skuId=9746833

As far as sources, anything can be plugged into an amp/receiver so that's not a huge issue.

As for your 5.1, you probably will be pretty good with any ht receiver. What's your budget?

 

[NutBucket]

That's pretty rigged. In-wall speakers but no control panels for any of it. Usually with these whole-house audio systems you'd have multiple sources and individual controls for each room.

http://www.nilesaudio.com/product_d...ystem&categoryID=Multizone Products&catcdID=2

 

[Modelworks]

If it is wired with just a single pair of wires for all the speakers in the home tell your parents to get their money back from whomever wired it. That is a nightmare to power with an amp, 20 speakers all with different ohms and cable lengths coming back to a single set of wires ?

Ohms on that would probably be under 1 ohm, what a screwed install.


If it were me I would find where the wires are routed, attic, basement and change them so I can access them by the room. Or better yet get the person that did the install to come back and do it right.


something like this should have been used at the bare minimum:
http://www.smarthome.com/8267/8-Speaker-Distribution-Panel/p.aspx

 

[EliteRetard]

OK real quick, there is a big bundle of wires coming out near the entertainment center area, but 10 of those wores are for the 5.1 (I didnt know this at first because the other ends never go pulled through the wall...so I have to start punching holes) then there are the 4 for the whole house audio. the standard 2 wires each for 2 speakers. Im pretty certain theres a switchbox type thing like modelworks has posted, somewhere in the wall. Dont know how else they would get it to work. There are volume knobs in each room (no on/off so I guess just turn it down?) and the guy who I talked to said he used a "boombox" to run them for walkthroughs. I have to assume they have some kind of amplifier built in as well then (I dont know any boombox that could power a housefull fo speakers).

So I just need to find a cheap device to hook up to these that can play radio and has an auxillary in. Bounus would be if it could be remotely controlled somehow.

 

[Modelworks]

Do you have a DMM ? Even a cheap one like this will work:
http://www.multimeterwarehouse.com/DT830BMinif.htm

Turn all the volume control knobs to 0.
Set the meter to ohms and place it on each pair of wires that you think powers the other room speakers. It should read between 4 ohms and 16 ohms. Now turn one of the volume control knobs up or down, the ohms should not go out of the 4-16 ohm range. If it doesn't then their is some sort of circuit balancing the load and you can use just about any receiver you like. If it starts dropping to below 4 ohms then you are going to have to fix the wiring because that will burn out most amps in a short period of time.

Also try turning all the volume controls to about mid way and see what the reading is. You really do not want to put an amp on a circuit that is not keeping the load balanced. It might appear to work fine, playing off a small amp for a short time, but over a day or more it will burn out the amp.

 

[EliteRetard]

OK, so Im retarded and dont know how to use the meter Ive got...and its really old (even lower end than that 5$ one) so I dont know how accurate it is. Is there a way to test it, like something that should be really close to a set value? I think I might try to test it this weekend...

Another odd question, can you splice audio wire or is that just stupid? Like could I just use one of those standard electrical wire twist cap things? Some of the wires may end up short or in a rather inconvienient location (for the 5.1).

How about using a 7.1 receiver and using 5.1 for the entertainment room and connection the 2 channel whole house audio to the last two outs? I think Ive just about scratched my head bald and I still havnt solved anything.

 

[Fallen Kell]

For "splicing" I would HIGHLY recommend AGAINST. What should have been done to begin with is have the wires terminated in keytone panels on the wall. Like one of these where they thought the entertainment unit would be:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-616

And these near where the speakers would go:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=261-352

With the bundle of wires being connected to the wall plates.

The ones for the around the house speakers should have been connected to something like this too:

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-542


I'm really sorry to hear what your parents got. The contractor building the place really had no clue and this was probably the first time they ever even did something like pre-wired home audio.

As for using a 7.1 receiver like that, unless is has listed that two of the channels can be used as a separate zone, then no, you can not use it like you want. You need to get a receiver that has at least 2 zones, a minimum of a 5.1 for the surround sound, and a second 2 channel zone (maybe even a 2.1 in case you need want to put a sub in the main secondary listening area). Most receivers support this now. To be totally honest, I personally would recommend something that has pre-outs (i.e. non-amplified outputs) and drive something like your second zone with a separate amplifier. Twenty speakers is a LOT a strain on an amplifier that would be in most receivers. Sure it might work fine for a while, but your life expectancy of the receiver will not be good and it will probably fail. The "boombox" worked ok for demos since it was only used for a little bit, but it probably never had to power the speakers for more than an hour or so at a time, whereas you would probably run the speakers for 6-8 hours if you are hosting a party or event (super bowl, Easter/Passover, Christmas/Hanukkah/Kwanzaa, whatever...). The power load on those amplifiers just won't cut it unless there is a lot of load balancing circuitry installed and the speakers are not simply setup in a parallel or (nightmare) series circuit. Most "receivers" just can't do that properly. They don't have the heatsinks needed to keep the system cool while having that much power pushed thru the circuit. Also, what we are talking about with the amplifier isn't power as in Watts, but power as in load (think of it as the difference between HP and Torque in cars, sure your Porsche might have 376 HP, but it can't tow worth a crap because the torque is very low until you hit 4,000 RPM (with max torque around 5,500 RPM), and since you can't start in first gear at 5000 RPM and maintain it (without destroying your clutch), it can't overcome the momentum of a heavy load being towed... on the other hand you can have a Ford F350, which has less HP at 350 hp, but it has double the torque of the Porsche and produces max torque at 2,000 RPM which means it can overcome the momentum of a heavy load).

You really need to try and find out what make/manufacturer of the volume controls for the rooms as well as the speakers. Even if you just take a digital camera and take photos and post them on AVS Forums in the A/V Distribution & Networking forum: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=36 and they may be able to help identify the gear.

 

[EliteRetard]

YAY! I think we might have found the "hub". There was a "home security" panel hiding behind some junk in a random closet...sounds like theres a ton of wires piled in there included what looks like the wires from elsewhere. I havnt looked yet.

...I can still add something like those cant I? Ive never seen a post thing like that though, and RCA for the subwoofer? Is there a better picture of those things and how they connect?

 

[Fallen Kell]

You can probably get better pictures from the different manufacturer websites, I simply linked to a place that I have bought parts like them before. Yes you can still add them yourself. Most subs are powered subs, and as a result, use a RCA style line-level connector. Some of the more expensive subs may also offer a balanced XLR connector, in which case, I recommend getting a keystone/wall plate with a balanced XLR connector as well. That said, neither of those subwoofer wires were probably already run since they would have had to know to use a RCA or XLR wire. If you want to use them, you will probably need to run them yourself, or have an installer do it (and if you have an installer do it, you might as well have them do all the wall plates...).

You don't have to get the plates that I have listed above. You may be much better doing a custom plate (however they tend to be more expensive). Get a keystone wall plate blank with the number of holes you need:

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=891

And then get the inserts for the proper connections that you need:

http://www.parts-express.com/wizards/searchResults.cfm?srchExt=CAT&srchCat=702

Obviously for speakers, you will want to use something like one of each of these on each wall plate (black and red colored 5-way binding posts):
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=151-262
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=151-268

Parts Express isn't the only place that carries these things either, and may not be the cheapest, so do a little digging if you are going to do this.

 

[Deleted member 4644]

Kid, to be blunt, you are not making any sense. Four wires (two pairs) for all the speakers in the house? Are you sure? That just does not sound right.

You need to find a way to figure out what you are really dealing with, and then get back to us.

You keep saying things like "real quick" .

This is not a real quick sort of situation. You need to slow down and carefully evaluate what you are dealing with, or you won't get this working in an optimal manner.

Start by buying a decent multi-meter. Please.

 

[Fallen Kell]

Another of the get a multi-meter group. You are going to need it in order to figure out what is connected in the same loops/circuit, how they are connected, how many ohms of impedance for the speakers/runs, what kind of volume controls are installed, what kind of balancing circuitry may be already installed, etc., etc., etc..

 

[EliteRetard]

Kid, lolz...

Ive been busy (and my car blew up) and have no internet and can only sneak away 15min or so a day (hence the quick posts). Some of my info is from quick calls/messages as I havent been able to go down there many times for long enough to get everything done. Work, LOTS of moving (from other states too), cars blowing up, stupid wiring, and all the other crap going on...definately keeps things interesting.

Sounds like a crazy botch job on the wiring though...there was a mass of bare wires of all types crammed in the box along with what they thought looked like the audio wires (pretty certain they are now, aparenty there is some kind board theyre plugged into). They got an electricion to come out thursday to work on it. Said none of the cable outlets were fininished (had to add ends to the wires and connect them all together and pull the wall plates to hook them up there as well). Bunch of unlabled wires and aparently some kind of networking cables all connected together (maybe used for phone lines?). Theres a bunch of this blue plastic flex tube that seems to pop out every here and there but nothing running through it. Dont know what its for (or where it all goes now), saw some near the entertainment center and thought maybe it was for routing cables but its to small to fit any connectors through (just big enough to fit the end of a power cable through) Yay. Now I really need to go down and look at it. Sounds like all the hazardous stuff has been taken care of though.

If I do grab a new multimeter Im still not sure I remember how to use it...I tried playing with mine and I think it says I have 450 volts in my wall outlets. So one of us is wrong. Is there a good quick guide for (elite) retards?

 

[EliteRetard]

Oh another quick question, if I do get pictures how do I post them?

 

[Muadib]

Oh another quick question, if I do get pictures how do I post them?

Read this: http://forums.anandtech.com/faq.php?faq=vb3_reading_posting#faq_vb3_attachments

 

[Jeep4JB]

As someone that installs whole house audio systems and such for a living, I'd recommend getting the guy that ran the wiring back in to advise on how things were wired. Some electricians are well versed in low voltage and others still don't realize you shouldn't jump wires from one location to the next like they do with high voltage. Chances are the in ceiling speakers are 8 ohms so knowing the models and such would only allow you to verify that is in fact the case. Typically the volume controls are impedance matching so they present an 8 ohm load to the amplifier/receiver so it doesn't shut down. However if you hook up too many pairs of speakers to a typical receiver it still could shut down and be short lived because you're driving it so hard. I'd recommend an actual multi channel amplifier unless you're willing to hook up just a few pairs of speakers through a speaker selector. Let me know if I can help any further.