What can you tell me about Oliver North and the Iran-Contra scandal?

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
I've read the Wikipedia article, but from from my understanding, North organized or helped significantly the flow of Arms and Funds to Iran and Contras which he knew was extremely illegal and while debated - unethical. During his congressional testimony, he lied under oath, destroyed documents related to the program, and spun the investigation as putting all the blame on him, a war hero.

I'm not sure if my own thoughts on the issue are correct, and I know we've had discussion on this in the past and I do believe we have quite a few members whom were alive during that time. If anyone has any corrections on my understanding of the issue or could extend upon it, as I'm not much well versed on the 80s. Thanks!
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I've read the Wikipedia article, but from from my understanding, North organized or helped significantly the flow of Arms and Funds to Iran and Contras which he knew was extremely illegal and while debated - unethical. During his congressional testimony, he lied under oath, destroyed documents related to the program, and spun the investigation as putting all the blame on him, a war hero.

I'm not sure if my own thoughts on the issue are correct, and I know we've had discussion on this in the past and I do believe we have quite a few members whom were alive during that time. If anyone has any corrections on my understanding of the issue or could extend upon it, as I'm not much well versed on the 80s. Thanks!

The most likely scenario was that the Administration at the time wanted to support an illegal activity, however it could not be linked to the President. In effect it was "Well I certainly wouldn't approve of it, but if someone else choose to do so, it could be considered beneficial to the nation". Plausible deniability.

Ollie took the heat, and Poindexter got a position doing some interesting (and questionable) things in the Pentagon as a reward.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
In short, some dangerous people with an agenda for doing things that were very problematic, using the US power not for our American values' agenda but for narrower power, happy to have right-wing dictators who were our agents, were given power under Reagan to pursue that agenda.

It was an era of backing Latin American regimes who terrorized their countries using torture and 'disappearing' any who opposed them, backing radical right economic agendas to impoverish middle classes, backing death squads to help the government and terrorists to oppose other governments (Ronald Reagan called the Contras who were terrorizing the people of Nicaragua 'the moral equivalent of our founding fathers'), an era of pushing Saddam to invade Iran, who suffered a million casualties and attacks against people from gas weapons, of repressing any 'left' governments by force such as the aggression against Grenada. The forces we backed in El Salvador not only did the above, they were infamous for the raping and killing of nuns, killing the Arch-Bishop, Romero, as he was doing Mass. These are dramatic incidents that stand out, but the wrongs against thousands are too easily ignored by people who don't appreciate them.

Romero's crime was to say things in the favor of the people, against the government.

Many of these policies were done illegally against the prohibition of Congress, such as funding the Contra terrorists, which is why they needed to raise the money elsewhere.

That's where things like selling illegal weapons to Iran, to defend themselves in a war we instigated, to raise money illegally for Nicaraguan terrorists, came from.

Oh yes, and initially using Israel as the middle-man for the deal, making us owe them for it, compromising our position there.

It's a terrible, shameful history - one in which North was very complicit.

It's well summarized by Reagan's own statement, one of the most amazing of any President:

A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not.
- President Ronald Reagan
 
Last edited:

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I remained on the loop on that one, Reagan was forced to appear on national television and admit he in was involved, they blamed William Casey who died of a brain tumor, and George H. Bush claimed he was not in the loop. As for Oliver North who lied his ass off, he got a free security fence out of the deal. But was at least forced to resign from the military. But never went to jail. As for Casper Weinburger and Oliver Poindexter, Reagan fired them to save his own ass, and they later surfaced during the GWB administration still up to their same old shit.

The Iran Contra shenagins could and IMHO should have led to a Reagan impeachment, but the Congress simply did not have the will.

Just my off the top of my head recollections, as the imperial presidency won again while our constitutional form of government lost.
 

soundforbjt

Lifer
Feb 15, 2002
17,788
6,041
136
And now you can see North is respected and employed by the favorite right-wing news channel Fox.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
How, exactly did North spin this? He sounds like a very bad person.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,563
14,964
146
Craig, is there any left wing dictator who you don't like??

PJ, does it really matter if the dictator is left wing or right wing? A dictator is a dictator...and you folks on the right have a long history of supporting many of them. (Saddam Hussein, Saudi Arabia's ruling family, etc.)
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
The "liberal" media basically gave a pass to these criminals after it came out as "people were already down on the Republicans after Nixon -let the country heal thing". Reagan also pulled the Alzheimer's card to pretend he didn't remember.
 

MagnusTheBrewer

IN MEMORIAM
Jun 19, 2004
24,122
1,594
126
Reagan was a traitor pure and simple. He sold weapons to Iran and funneled the funds through North to support the Contras in Nicaragua.

Everyone seems to focus on the money trail but, I say, who the fuck cares what was done with the money? Our dear uncle Ronnie sold arms to our enemy. How do you construe that in any way shape or form but treason?
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
The "liberal" media basically gave a pass to these criminals after it came out as "people were already down on the Republicans after Nixon -let the country heal thing". Reagan also pulled the Alzheimer's card to pretend he didn't remember.

The Alzheimer's was not mentioned until he left office.
 

RedChief

Senior member
Dec 20, 2004
533
0
81
PJ, does it really matter if the dictator is left wing or right wing? A dictator is a dictator...and you folks on the right have a long history of supporting many of them. (Saddam Hussein, Saudi Arabia's ruling family, etc.)

Can you name more then 2 right ewing dictators?
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
Fawn Hall...

. . . was totally hot and made a bunch of Congressmen look like total idiots. Granted, that involved mostly allowing them to speak uninterrupted . . .

Cliff Notes version - America and the Soviet Union were engaged in the cold war by proxy. The Soviets poured money and arms into South America to arm left wing groups like the Sandinistas whose aim was to terrorize the populace and overthrow the various governments, most of whom were no nicer but weren't Communist. The CIA poured money and arms into right wing groups like the Contras, who behaved pretty much the same way but liked us better than the Soviets. Since they weren't Communist, that made them by default our side.

Congress, being even then mostly Democrats and therefore leftists except when campaigning, decided that the Sandanistas were pretty good dudes and were only terrorizing the people for their own greater good, whereas the Contras were presumably terrorizing the people for their own amusement or, worse, for America's benefit. So Congress passed an Act that banned all support for the Contras and similar groups. (You might recognize that little trick from Vietnam, nothing the left likes more than making sure there's no way Communism can lose.)

Enter North and the CIA, long time warriors against creeping Communism and not about to accept oversight from any pinko Commies even if they do constitute the duly elected government they supposedly serve. Deprived of black funds but with several aircraft they began trading arms and South American drugs to raise money to equip the Contras and similar groups.

Now it gets a bit more complicated. The Shah of Iran, a real sumbitch but our sometimes pal and real close to Great Britain, gets overthrown by radical Islamicists. We via the UN then slap an arms embargo on Iran. The CIA wants to support moderates within Iran to combat the spread of Islamic terrorism. The CIA also wants to free some Westerners being held hostage by various Islamic terrorist groups. (Note: these are not THE hostages; those were freed on Reagan's inauguration because he had promised to use military force to free them. These were merely a handful of Westerners captured by Hezbollah, that noted humanitarian group.) Fundamentalist Iran has been invaded by socialist Iraq. Iraq is being supplied by the Soviet Union even though it is WAY far from being truly Communist, whereas Iran has practically no arms suppliers and has driven off or murdered most of its actual military professionals, so it's willing to deal with whomever will sell it weapons, even the great Satan. Part of the Iranian ruling class makes contact with the CIA and pretends to be a moderate group desiring to overthrow the Ayatollah if only they had some weapons - and even though they have NOTHING to do with those nasty Islamic fundamentalists they Do happen to have a lot of pull with them, so if the CIA could just get them some heavy weapons they'd have a nice word with their beheading buds over at Hezbollah and tell them what ever-so-nice folks Americans are and how they should thus release their hostages.

Now it gets even more complicated. Both parties are willing and eager, and the CIA has these arms and these planes, but we can't just fly into Iran. Even if we could trust Iran, someone would surely notice and say "Wait a minute, you said selling arms to Iran was bad." But we CAN fly into Israel at will, and we can sell Israel weapons at will. And although Israel needs all the heavy weapons it can get, the idea of having a nearby and comparatively very large and powerful country NOT be led by those people pledging to wipe you off the map and kill or enslave your people is pretty sweet too. So Israel agrees, through its excellent spy network, to help us sell weapons to the supposedly moderate faction inside Iran. So the clandestine arms-running network that by law isn't supposed to exist is selling weapons to someone to whom it's not allowed to sell weapons. There are two benefits, the first being that Western hostages were actually freed - or to be more brutally honest, bought from the terrorist slavers who seized them. The second of course is that in a fight between a rat and a snake, it's to everyone's advantage that the two inflict as much damage on each other as possible. There was of course no moderate faction, merely those willing to deal with the Great Satan and the Little Satan because having killed or driven away almost all their military professionals and scientists, their fledgling little piece of hell was in real danger of being conquered.

Bottom line, we traded arms for hostages, perhaps with some justification of helping moderates in Iran and perhaps with no more than a polite fiction of justification, depending on how gullible you think the CIA was. (Before you answer, remember that this is an organization that supposedly once hatched a plot to kill Castro by paying a flower arranger to put a time release poison in his flower arrangement's water, and is the remnant of the OSS which had a plot to overthrow Hitler via a poison that made him less manly - in a regime rife with open homosexuals. When it comes to intrigue, Americans were and remain bumbling amateurs.)

Long story short - operation comes out, Contra arming comes out, North and Poindexter take advantage of Democrats' lust to get Reagan and disarm them (i.e. get blanket immunity), and finally Fawn Hall comes out, serenely beautiful and totally unflappable, and makes the Democrats look like total idiots. Riveting television and radio, really. Democrats were in the unique and unenviable position of being totally and completely correct in the law's eyes, and totally and completely wrong in the eyes of a majority of the voting populace. Like so many hullabaloos in Washington it ended up with a bunch of criminal prosecutions for relatively minor things, almost all of which were overturned on appeal, and all of which were later pardoned by Bush I.

There were two undeniably positive effects of the scandal itself. First, it made a portion of the populace pay attention to government, what it DOES versus what the Congressman SAYS he supports when he's back amongst the rubes collecting money and pandering for votes. Second, it hopefully made the CIA less likely to flaunt the law. Even if you do no prison time, being prosecuted is expensive and embarrassing and generally unpleasant. Whether you think there were any other positive effects largely depends on your political views. For instance, if like Craig you think (sorry, feel) that the Sandanistas are swell guys only concerned with spreading human rights and unicorn sperm, you'd think the scandal was a wonderful thing, as it disarmed the Contras and helped the Soviets establish Marxism as a legitimate form of government in South America. If on the other hand you think fighting Communism is the right thing to do at any price, then you'd think the scandal was a horrid thing, as it disarmed the brave freedom fighters. For myself, I think it was mostly a good thing. While I have the utmost respect for North and his service, and I largely share the CIA's desire to fight Marxism in all its forms, you simply can't have the CIA undermining the duly constituted government, no matter how inane the policies. To the extent that the scandal undermined this self-appointed shadow government, it was useful.
 

Tab

Lifer
Sep 15, 2002
12,145
0
76
I take it that's the right-wing perspective, which while I probably disagree with but I really appreciate you posting your thoughts werepossum.
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I take it that's the right-wing perspective, which while I probably disagree with but I really appreciate you posting your thoughts werepossum.

To some degree all my thoughts are right wing except where they are left wing. I find to my chagrin that I am largely not a man of the center but of extremes, a supporter of gay marriage rather than civil unions, of the FairTax rather than a lower income tax, endangered fish over farmers and farmers over politicians, protectionist rather than free trade and trade unions but not unskilled unions. I seem to have a knack for avoiding the center in any argument, even though I pay lip service to it. But it's also pragmatic. Note that while I agree with the goals of those who did it and I largely prefer them to those Democrats who prosecuted them, I still agree with the prosecutions. To some degree, illegal activities with which we fundamentally agree are more dangerous than illegal activities with which we fundamentally disagree, as we are always tempted to let those slide. Once we accept transgressions by those in power, on either side, we inevitably undermine our society.

Also, too many people seem to think there is a good side and a bad side in places like Iran and South America. Usually the sides vying for power are both bad, and whether to support the least bad side is a moral dilemma with few clear answers. With the Communists, for example - if the people are extremely poor, is there some level at which giving up their freedom and individualism is actually the lesser evil? Craig will tell you the Communists in any conflict are the good guys; I won't tell you the reverse, though I will tell you that Communism is no better than any other form of totalitarianism or any other form of governance by a self-appointed elite. The only thing I know for sure is that, right or wrong, whatever we do must be done by our duly elected government, not by some self-appointed shadow government.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Can you name more then 2 right ewing dictators?

Are you kidding?

Off the top of my head I'll pick a few, Somoza, Batista, the Shah of Iran, D'Aubisson, Marcos, Diem, it's pointless naming these as there are hundreds at least.

Heads of State in Africa, Latin America, South Asia, on and on, the history of these regions is filled with the more powerful west putting its puppets in charge.

I'm reading a great book now on the history of the US in Latin America.

I'd mention the title, but it's a waste of time, since I don't think there's any real chance you would read something as good as that.

As least things are better now thank goodness.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
The Alzheimer's was not mentioned until he left office.

People knew by the mid 80's, it was obvious as day in his speeches he was suffering a dementia of some sort. People kinda looked the other way when he made out like he didn't remember. I do not know if the I/C thing was "overlooked" or repressed out of respect to the president by the media but it was pathetic. My family whispered about it like I said, from mid 80s on. By I/C it was obvious. He probably owes his lack of impeachment to Alzheimers or sympathy for him in my opinion.