What can we do to strengthen the middle class?

[fuzzybabybunny]

Like most people, I'm worried about the future economic prospects of the United States.

A lot of our jobs are low-value, low-pay, service industry jobs, and our manufacturing can't compete because our high wages would drive the price of goods to noncompetitive levels. The only part where we have a slight edge are the higher paid, more innovative and creative jobs like in high tech and whatnot. But unfortunately not everyone in the country can do these jobs.

We need to continue to provide value to the world in order to stay relevant and healthy. Money needs to flow in rather than always be spent outwards. China provides enormous value because they manufacture everything at cheap prices.

We, on the other hand, do almost nothing but consume and send money away. Consuming does not a middle class make.

I'm a business owner and I know the value of having cash in helping me succeed in a competitive marketplace. And one of the ways of getting more cash is to lower labor costs. And contrary to American belief, lower labor costs does not necessarily mean inferior quality or inferior innovation - I can hire a few innovators from the US for the design and let foreign workers do the heavy lifting. People in countries like China can often do just as good of a job as Americans can, and they're only going to get better. That's a bitter pill to grind your teeth on, but we seriously have to get our ass in gear and realize that the blind devotion to "America is number 1!!!!" is bullshit. I'm sorry, but that mentality is one of the huge reasons we're in this mess. The proof is literally in every job that has been offshored and has *stayed* offshore because the level of quality turns out to be sufficient.

What's the point of me hiring an all-American team when the end result is a product so expensive that only other well-off Americans can afford it? And someone else could just make a similar product, have it manufactured offshore, and blow our prices out of the water.

I honestly don't know what to do. A few thoughts I have though:

Focus on our innovation talents. We need to out-innovate other countries so that we are always the ones steering the boat and telling others what to make and the ones doing the selling versus always doing the buying. And by "we" I mean "every American." STOP being a consumer nation and start being a CREATOR nation. STOP being a service nation and start being an INNOVATION nation.

Be willing to do the "undesirable" jobs for less pay than we're used to, like in manufacturing. Unfortunately, we're competing against factory workers who are paid $500 a month in China. Obviously there is no way we can go this low, or even come close, so I'm not sure how to solve this problem, unless one American worker can somehow have the productivity of 8 Chinese workers.

 

[Craig234]

In FDR's time, we had econmomic experts suggest experiments. It was viewed as a laboratory to find what worked. He did thigs like the CCC.

What we need to do today is to get control of our political system back to serve the people rather than the wealthy.

Having done that, we need to look again at the question of what will work for the government to create focus on for our economy, employing Americans for good income.

A good example of that is the 'green energy' industry. Even if it were a new CCC, we need something for the purpose of helping with this employment.

And we need the wealthy to pay a share like they did in that era in taxes.

This can create a positive cycle of the benefits of these efforts helping the economy creating more opportunities.

 

[Via]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on every aspect of this discussion, but some things sure seem like common sense.

1) Grant appreciable tax breaks for companies creating jobs on US soil. Eliminate any financial incentive to outsource a middle class position.

2) Put up some hurdles to guard against state to state economic pilfering. Imo it should be illegal to offer public money to entice companies to relocate from state to state. It should be up to each individual state to find other ways to lure businesses. Superior education, leading to a superior workforce, perhaps? Better infrastructure?

3) Overhaul the entire collegiate system. As it stands now it's way too expensive and it churns out too many inferior workers. Put more of the onus for worker training on the companies themselves. Allow them, encourage them, to recruit HS students for job placement programs that lead to middle class jobs.

 

[OGOC]

What can we do to strengthen the middle class?

Stop letting the private Federal Reserve manipulate and devalue the currency. This would mean more purchasing power for the middle class and less purchasing power for the government which just wastes it anyway and then puts that debt burden onto you and your children.

It would also mean the government would have to find a way to do with less war since it wouldn't be able to pay for it by borrowing and printing money.

 

[OGOC]

And we need the wealthy to pay a share like they did in that era in taxes.

The wealthy might prefer that.

Peter Schiff: The Fantasy of a 91% Top Income Tax Rate
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324705104578151601554982808.html

the confiscatory top marginal rates of the 1950s were essentially symbolic—very few actually paid them. In reality the vast majority of top earners faced lower effective rates than they do today.

In 1958, even the lowest-tier filers, which included everyone making up to $5,000 annually, were subjected to an effective 20% rate. Today, almost half of all tax filers have no income-tax liability whatsoever, and many "taxpayers" actually get a net refund from the government. Those nostalgic for 1950s-era "tax fairness" should bear this in mind.

The tax code of the 1950s allowed upper-income Americans to take exemptions and deductions that are unheard of today. Tax shelters were widespread, and not just for the superrich.

When Ronald Reagan finally lowered rates in the 1980s, he did so in exchange for scrapping uneconomical deductions. When business owners stopped trying to figure out how to lose money, the economy boomed.

It is a testament to the shallow nature of the national economic conversation that higher tax rates can be justified by reference to a fantasy—a 91% marginal rate that hardly any top earners paid.

 

[mikeymikec]

Instead, strengthen the working class, partly by giving companies incentives (and not necessarily monetary incentives, though it usually works) to not outsource.

 

[Craig234]

 

[Exterous]

I think the US business climate also strongly favors the top big businesses. The tax code\health care\regulatory compliance\legal\patent areas all favor large corporations that have the money and manpower to navigate them and have gotten progressively more complicated

http://www.uschamber.com/press/releases/2013/july/us-chamber-releases-q2-small-business-survey

Given that small businesses made up half the GDP but their share has been declining I don't think we focus nearly enough on how we can make small businesses more viable

 

[Paul98]

I think the US business climate also strongly favors the top big businesses. The tax code\health care\regulatory compliance\legal\patent areas all favor large corporations that have the money and manpower to navigate them and have gotten progressively more complicated

http://www.uschamber.com/press/releases/2013/july/us-chamber-releases-q2-small-business-survey

Given that small businesses made up half the GDP but their share has been declining I don't think we focus nearly enough on how we can make small businesses more viable

This is where I have been noticing a huge problem more recently. It's businesses who are able to start out cheaply, but after doing well then end up putting financial and other roadblocks for those would would want to do something similar. Where as those who started before are able to deal with these or not even have to depending on the laws.

 

[moonbogg]

What we need to do today is to get control of our political system back to serve the people rather than the wealthy.

This confuses me. The wealthy are the ones who lead the rest and provide the jobs. The wealthy are the people. They just aren't the takers, they are the providers. We have too few providers and way too many takers.
Instead of calling them the wealthy, lets call them the ones who do all the work and give the rest of us lazy Americans a job to do.
China kicks our ass because they are hungry, like we used to be.
Also, economic power shifts from place to place. It ripples across regions like waves in a pool of water. America used to be competitive and they were able to demand a price for their goods. Now they can't because that ability has shifted. Eventually, the Chinese wages will increase as well as the standard of living, and as it does the balance will shift back to us and to others as well. I see this as a natural balancing of power and is unavoidable to an extent.
Being a provider was easier before than it is now. It takes a whole lot of motivation, hard consistent work and innovation to produce anything in America today.
Its not the fault of the financial elite that they send resources out to others. They go where they get the best return. We have to offer them a better return and they will go to it. This thinking is entitlement on a grand scale and is ridiculous. You want people to lose money in America just because they should be nice? Would you lose money just so you can be a nice guy? All your hard work, years of making all the right choices, all the sacrifice and consistent effort, just to waste it all away being a nice guy to your lazy countrymen? Forget it because it will never happen.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

This confuses me. The wealthy are the ones who lead the rest and provide the jobs. The wealthy are the people. They just aren't the takers, they are the providers. We have too few providers and way too many takers.
Instead of calling them the wealthy, lets call them the ones who do all the work and give the rest of us lazy Americans a job to do.
China kicks our ass because they are hungry, like we used to be.
Also, economic power shifts from place to place. It ripples across regions like waves in a pool of water. America used to be competitive and they were able to demand a price for their goods. Now they can't because that ability has shifted. Eventually, the Chinese wages will increase as well as the standard of living, and as it does the balance will shift back to us and to others as well. I see this as a natural balancing of power and is unavoidable to an extent.
Being a provider was easier before than it is now. It takes a whole lot of motivation, hard consistent work and innovation to produce anything in America today.
Its not the fault of the financial elite that they send resources out to others. They go where they get the best return. We have to offer them a better return and they will go to it. This thinking is entitlement on a grand scale and is ridiculous. You want people to lose money in America just because they should be nice? Would you lose money just so you can be a nice guy? All your hard work, years of making all the right choices, all the sacrifice and consistent effort, just to waste it all away being a nice guy to your lazy countrymen? Forget it because it will never happen.

There are a lot of distinctions here that you're missing.

Sure, generally the wealthy provide jobs, but you need to look at the types of jobs provided. Are the vast majority of them low wage lower class service industry jobs? If that's the case the jobs they're providing aren't doing much good. Better than no jobs, sure, but not good overall.

All jobs are not equal.

When the wages of Chinese workers increase the power will *not* necessarily shift back to us. It'll shift to Vietnam (already shifting). China is also grooming parts of Africa to take over manufacturer (yes, China is outsourcing to and developing Africa and the Chinese elite will keep "manufacturing" in their pocket as a result). What are we doing in the meantime? Nothing. There is no natural balancing of power. Just constant shifting. When you have unregulated capitalism there's no system in place for checks and balances.

The last part of your statement I agree with, although it's not always the financial elite that we have to cater to - it's all the small business owners and entrepreneurs that have the option of going overseas or domestic. It does no one, not the business owners, not the stakeholders, not the customers, not the employees, no one, any good if the business costs are so high that they can't compete in a world where competitors are taking advantage of low cost offshore labor. Business isn't in it to be nice. I wish this were the case, but businesses are in it to make money. And American workers are entitled and feel that they should be the ones getting the jobs. Why? There's no good reason if they're 10x more expensive and less qualified to boot.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on every aspect of this discussion, but some things sure seem like common sense.

1) Grant appreciable tax breaks for companies creating jobs on US soil. Eliminate any financial incentive to outsource a middle class position.

2) Put up some hurdles to guard against state to state economic pilfering. Imo it should be illegal to offer public money to entice companies to relocate from state to state. It should be up to each individual state to find other ways to lure businesses. Superior education, leading to a superior workforce, perhaps? Better infrastructure?

3) Overhaul the entire collegiate system. As it stands now it's way too expensive and it churns out too many inferior workers. Put more of the onus for worker training on the companies themselves. Allow them, encourage them, to recruit HS students for job placement programs that lead to middle class jobs.

1. This would definitely be nice for someone like me.

2. No comment.

3. Yes, for sure. Our college "system" is so FUBAR. Monumentally overpriced and pumping out shitty workers with no practical skills. I don't agree with putting the onus on training on companies. This would put an unfair burden on small businesses. Small business are lean. We can only focus on "doing," not on training and teaching. And honestly, the reason we hire people is we have no idea how to do XYZ, and we need someone with practical experience to fill in that gap. Not the best scenario to have to teach someone how to do XYZ...

 

[Via]

This confuses me. The wealthy are the ones who lead the rest and provide the jobs. The wealthy are the people. They just aren't the takers, they are the providers. We have too few providers and way too many takers.
Instead of calling them the wealthy, lets call them the ones who do all the work and give the rest of us lazy Americans a job to do.
China kicks our ass because they are hungry, like we used to be.
Also, economic power shifts from place to place. It ripples across regions like waves in a pool of water. America used to be competitive and they were able to demand a price for their goods. Now they can't because that ability has shifted. Eventually, the Chinese wages will increase as well as the standard of living, and as it does the balance will shift back to us and to others as well. I see this as a natural balancing of power and is unavoidable to an extent.
Being a provider was easier before than it is now. It takes a whole lot of motivation, hard consistent work and innovation to produce anything in America today.
Its not the fault of the financial elite that they send resources out to others. They go where they get the best return. We have to offer them a better return and they will go to it. This thinking is entitlement on a grand scale and is ridiculous. You want people to lose money in America just because they should be nice? Would you lose money just so you can be a nice guy? All your hard work, years of making all the right choices, all the sacrifice and consistent effort, just to waste it all away being a nice guy to your lazy countrymen? Forget it because it will never happen.

The American worker is more productive than ever, while at the same time making less money. Their wages haven't come close to keeping pace with productivity.

And I'm not sure what your suggestion for strengthening the middles class is. The sole point of your post seems to be to advise middle class people to settle for a lower class existence so the corporations, and the wealthy, can have it all.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

In FDR's time, we had econmomic experts suggest experiments. It was viewed as a laboratory to find what worked. He did thigs like the CCC.

What we need to do today is to get control of our political system back to serve the people rather than the wealthy.

Having done that, we need to look again at the question of what will work for the government to create focus on for our economy, employing Americans for good income.

A good example of that is the 'green energy' industry. Even if it were a new CCC, we need something for the purpose of helping with this employment.

And we need the wealthy to pay a share like they did in that era in taxes.

This can create a positive cycle of the benefits of these efforts helping the economy creating more opportunities.

Our government and special legacy interests are a huge, huge problem. But very predictable and exactly the symptoms you would expect from a system where a very few carry so much wealth, clout, and influence.

I would love to see a full-on, CCC-like sledgehammer-drive into the green industry.

I'm a business owner and I studied business and was brainwashed to think capitalism was the end all be all. It's not. Unbridled capitalism will lead to extreme harm. Government that is too small will lead to extreme damage. Wise government needs to act as a guide for the economy, and that means programs like the CCC in green industry.

I like to think about it this way - strong, successful, *socially responsible*, long-lasting businesses are NOT a democracy. They have great leadership, great structure, and are not controlled internally only by the whims of supply and demand. That's not to say they're a dictatorship either - there's an in-between. The US doesn't have this. Places like Germany do.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

The American worker is more productive than ever, while at the same time making less money. Their wages haven't come close to keeping pace with productivity.

And I'm not sure what your suggestion for strengthening the middles class is. The sole point of your post seems to be to advise middle class people to settle for a lower class existence so the corporations, and the wealthy, can have it all.

Are they 10x as productive as a Chinese worker? A Chinese worker makes $500 a month, and that is being generous. I'm assuming a salary of $60,000 for a US worker, which is high. So let's assume $40,000. That's still 6.7 times higher than a Chinese worker.

Put yourself in the shoes of a small business. Three core people. For $40,000 a year they can hire a single American engineer who is more productive than ever before. Each would have to justify a $13,333 risk to their individual salaries as a result, so they'd better make that $40,000 count.

Or they can hire an entire team of 6 Chinese engineers. Or 4 Chinese engineers and 1 American on a contractor basis whenever needed.

 

[Via]

Are they 10x as productive as a Chinese worker? A Chinese worker makes $500 a month, and that is being generous. I'm assuming a salary of $60,000 for a US worker, which is high. So let's assume $40,000. That's still 6.7 times higher than a Chinese worker.

Put yourself in the shoes of a small business. Three core people. For $40,000 a year they can hire a single American engineer who is more productive than ever before. Each would have to justify a $13,333 risk to their individual salaries as a result, so they'd better make that $40,000 count.

Or they can hire an entire team of 6 Chinese engineers. Or 4 Chinese engineers and 1 American on a contractor basis whenever needed.

Do you want American workers to live like Chinese workers? I thought you wanted to strengthen the middle class here, not eliminate it. I've read plenty of stories of successful small businesses here in the US who treat their employees very well.

And most of the Chinese engineers I know make $150,000+ working for Caterpillar. Are you sure you can get good Chinese engineers for $13,000 a year?

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Do you want American workers to live like Chinese workers? I thought you wanted to strengthen the middle class here, not eliminate it. I've read plenty of stories of successful small businesses here in the US who treat their employees very well.

And most of the Chinese engineers I know make $150,000+ working for Caterpillar. Are you sure you can get good Chinese engineers for $13,000 a year?

I want to strengthen the middle class but at the same time not kill my own business, whether outright or making me vulnerable in the future to low cost providers who do just as good of a job.

Simply hiring American workers is not a solution to the financial numbers game that is business.

I'm probably going to be getting Chinese programmers from China's top university for ~$7,000 a year in the next month.

A Chinese national, living in China, being paid $150,000 a year is insane. They can literally do whatever they want with that kind of income in China.

 

[Via]

I want to strengthen the middle class but at the same time not kill my own business, whether outright or making me vulnerable in the future to low cost providers who do just as good of a job.

Simply hiring American workers is not a solution to the financial numbers game that is business.

I'm probably going to be getting Chinese programmers from China's top university for ~$7,000 a year in the next month.

A Chinese national, living in China, being paid $150,000 a year is insane. They can literally do whatever they want with that kind of income in China.

Can you clarify a few things:

1) Is your business located in the US or China?

2) If it is located in the US - are you saying that you're going to be hiring Chinese engineers living in China to do work for your business?

3) If that's the case how are you going to handle security?

It sounds like you're outsourcing jobs, and if that's case your OP question was rhetorical because you already know the only answer you want to hear.

 

[fuzzybabybunny]

Can you clarify a few things:

1) Is your business located in the US or China?

2) If it is located in the US - are you saying that you're going to be hiring Chinese engineers living in China to do work for your business?

3) If that's the case how are you going to handle security?

It sounds like you're outsourcing jobs, and if that's case your OP question was rhetorical because you already know the only answer you want to hear.

1. Business is in the US.

2. Yes.

3. Not a concern. I know plenty of American businesses with American employees that just get their stuff copied verbatim by Chinese engineers within months of releasing it.

Sorry, I can't fork out a minimum of $60k x 2 for a pair of American engineers when I can get a team of Chinese engineers from top schools over there to do the heavy lifting for a fraction of the cost.

It's not rhetorical. I would like to hire American workers, but the numbers simply don't make any sense.

Like I said, I'm looking for a solution to this problem.

 

[Craig234]

This confuses me. The wealthy are the ones who lead the rest and provide the jobs. The wealthy are the people. They just aren't the takers, they are the providers. We have too few providers and way too many takers.
Instead of calling them the wealthy, lets call them the ones who do all the work and give the rest of us lazy Americans a job to do.
China kicks our ass because they are hungry, like we used to be.
Also, economic power shifts from place to place. It ripples across regions like waves in a pool of water. America used to be competitive and they were able to demand a price for their goods. Now they can't because that ability has shifted. Eventually, the Chinese wages will increase as well as the standard of living, and as it does the balance will shift back to us and to others as well. I see this as a natural balancing of power and is unavoidable to an extent.
Being a provider was easier before than it is now. It takes a whole lot of motivation, hard consistent work and innovation to produce anything in America today.
Its not the fault of the financial elite that they send resources out to others. They go where they get the best return. We have to offer them a better return and they will go to it. This thinking is entitlement on a grand scale and is ridiculous. You want people to lose money in America just because they should be nice? Would you lose money just so you can be a nice guy? All your hard work, years of making all the right choices, all the sacrifice and consistent effort, just to waste it all away being a nice guy to your lazy countrymen? Forget it because it will never happen.

You have a warped view of the wealthy.

A good way to think of one aspect of the wealthy is to think of the Wal-Mart heirs. They don't really do anything to contribute; they just own and take income. They drain.

Wealth does that. It gives control and drains the wealth from others.

Now, there's another aspect to many wealthy - many are great contributors. And that deserves a certain amount of reward - not the extreme reward we have today.

Close to all economic growth in recent years has gone to the top 100%. That's why over recent decades, workers are up 5% while the wealthy are up over 700%.

China 'kicks our ass' by having a lot of poor people. We could 'compete' with them tomorrow by slashing our wages and wealth to their leve. We could compete if we brought back slavery - have 20% of our people owned by our more wealthy citizens, working for free. That's how we built our country.

We squander our wealth on the wealthy. For just one anecdote, look at how Goldman-Sachs bought up Aluminum distributors, and speculated on aluminum futures - then forced that bet to pay off by driving up the cost of Aluminum, literally as delivery was delayed for months, to create a false scarcity, as they drove the aluminum around in circles to evade the law meant to prevent this sort of manipulation by requireing the aluminum to leave the storage facility. They drain wealth, from a product people pay more for they should consum less of in the first place. Not a great formula for a strong economy. When big banks are taking 40% of all profits, there's a problem.

That's why we need the government serving the people rather than the wealthy. In some ways, their interests overlap, and that's fine - help both. But in some important areas, the wealthy and the people are in conflict, and policies are going to serve one or the other, and that should largely be the people. We also need to create incentives for things like long-term prosperity rather than quarterly results Wall Stree demands at the expense of future profits.

 

[Sonikku]

Unfortunately the big corporations have not been able to realize that one mans spending money is another mans income. So when they offshore America's income to other countries pointing to the short term savings in labor, hey never quite figured out however that when you move that income and that spending money elsewhere they they have inadvertently slashed at the amount of income Americans have to buy their companies own products. So then they have to cut costs some more. And then more again, in a disastrous downward spiral.

Maybe not the wealth lost by the company doing the job off-shoring in particular is the spending money lost that was going towards the same companies products, but when EVERY major company starts getting behind this game plan, sooner or later everyone will be the poorer for it. The mega-corporations of today are basically spoiled. They are hurting themselves over short term gain and are too focused over the stock price in the next 5 minutes to be bothered with maintaining a long term healthy growth for their business. Someone needs to step in and play tough love, for their own sakes. Unfortunately that someone is so dependent on the corporate teat to stay in power that they're too paralyzed to give them anything but what they want instead of what they need.

At the same time the rank and file people vote for the guy with the bigger campaign fund, dooming anyone who dares run without suckling on the corporate teat to failure. We have basically created a system where so many people are stealing from each other that people have lost faith in the system. When the people get ripped off long enough they come to the conclusion that they too would have to bleed the system dry just to break even with where they started with. So to is the systems credibility undermined and a nations death spiral accelerated.

 

[woolfe9998]

Like most people, I'm worried about the future economic prospects of the United States.

A lot of our jobs are low-value, low-pay, service industry jobs, and our manufacturing can't compete because our high wages would drive the price of goods to noncompetitive levels. The only part where we have a slight edge are the higher paid, more innovative and creative jobs like in high tech and whatnot. But unfortunately not everyone in the country can do these jobs.

We need to continue to provide value to the world in order to stay relevant and healthy. Money needs to flow in rather than always be spent outwards. China provides enormous value because they manufacture everything at cheap prices.

We, on the other hand, do almost nothing but consume and send money away. Consuming does not a middle class make.

I'm a business owner and I know the value of having cash in helping me succeed in a competitive marketplace. And one of the ways of getting more cash is to lower labor costs. And contrary to American belief, lower labor costs does not necessarily mean inferior quality or inferior innovation - I can hire a few innovators from the US for the design and let foreign workers do the heavy lifting. People in countries like China can often do just as good of a job as Americans can, and they're only going to get better. That's a bitter pill to grind your teeth on, but we seriously have to get our ass in gear and realize that the blind devotion to "America is number 1!!!!" is bullshit. I'm sorry, but that mentality is one of the huge reasons we're in this mess. The proof is literally in every job that has been offshored and has *stayed* offshore because the level of quality turns out to be sufficient.

What's the point of me hiring an all-American team when the end result is a product so expensive that only other well-off Americans can afford it? And someone else could just make a similar product, have it manufactured offshore, and blow our prices out of the water.

I honestly don't know what to do. A few thoughts I have though:

Focus on our innovation talents. We need to out-innovate other countries so that we are always the ones steering the boat and telling others what to make and the ones doing the selling versus always doing the buying. And by "we" I mean "every American." STOP being a consumer nation and start being a CREATOR nation. STOP being a service nation and start being an INNOVATION nation.

Be willing to do the "undesirable" jobs for less pay than we're used to, like in manufacturing. Unfortunately, we're competing against factory workers who are paid $500 a month in China. Obviously there is no way we can go this low, or even come close, so I'm not sure how to solve this problem, unless one American worker can somehow have the productivity of 8 Chinese workers.

I agree with you about innovation, but I have a problem with your second observation. You're asking how we "strengthen the middle class" and complaining that too many of our jobs are "low pay" yet your suggestion is to lower wages. You then compare us unfavorably to China, in spite of the fact that China has very little "middle class" precisely because their wages are crap. You need to explain how we strengthen our middle class by emulating a country with a very weak middle class and a terrible standard of living.

 

[Craig234]

Unfortunately the big corporations have not been able to realize that one mans spending money is another mans income. So when they offshore America's income to other countries pointing to the short term savings in labor, hey never quite figured out however that when you move that income and that spending money elsewhere they they have inadvertently slashed at the amount of income Americans have to buy their companies own products. So then they have to cut costs some more. And then more again, in a disastrous downward spiral.

They understand it, but if they pay more domestically and their competitor outsources, they're at a cometitive disadvantage. That's why these are government issues.

 

[OGOC]

I think the US business climate also strongly favors the top big businesses. The tax code\health care\regulatory compliance\legal\patent areas all favor large corporations that have the money and manpower to navigate them and have gotten progressively more complicated

We squander our wealth on the wealthy. For just one anecdote, look at how Goldman-Sachs bought up Aluminum distributors, and speculated on aluminum futures - then forced that bet to pay off by driving up the cost of Aluminum,

That's why we need the government serving the people rather than the wealthy.

The above things are related. But remember, it's government that is catering to big businesses. It is government that is abusing its power in order to manipulate things for big businesses. It is government that abuses the Commerce Clause to basically do whatever it wants. The Dodd-Frank bank bill, sure it sounds good in theory, but it was written by big banks, and now small banks can't compete. The too big to fails are now bigger than ever thanks to government.

Bringing up Goldman Sachs... now there's an example. The U.S. government is practically a revolving door for GS employees. And some people want the government to have even more power for people to abuse and to manipulate the "free" market?

There's a chance Goldman Sachs would be bankrupt right now. But Goldman Sachs got a bailout. Who bailed out Goldman Sachs? Government bailed out Goldman Sachs.

 

[Craig234]

The above things are related. But remember, it's government that is catering to big businesses. It is government that is abusing its power in order to manipulate things for big businesses. It is government that abuses the Commerce Clause to basically do whatever it wants. The Dodd-Frank bank bill, sure it sounds good in theory, but it was written by big banks, and now small banks can't compete. The too big to fails are now bigger than ever thanks to government.

Bringing up Goldman Sachs... now there's an example. The U.S. government is practically a revolving door for GS employees. And some people want the government to have even more power for people to abuse and to manipulate the "free" market?

There's a chance Goldman Sachs would be bankrupt right now. But Goldman Sachs got a bailout. Who bailed out Goldman Sachs? Government bailed out Goldman Sachs.

That's why my post began with:

What we need to do today is to get control of our political system back to serve the people rather than the wealthy

Some people make the mistake of concluding 'government is bad'.

That's an even worse conclusion than government serving the wealthy.

Government serving the people is essential to the people's interest.

If the people destroy governnent instead of taking it back for themselves, then they won't have any power against the powerful interests.