What auto maintenance items are *optional*???????

[redgtxdi]

My grandmother (85) is widowed, lives on her own....is still very independent, drives, etc.

Well, at her house today & she told me she spent $3,700 at the Toyota dealer on her car. I was like.....WTF!?!?

Here's what I remember of the work order..............

2 rear struts ($1K)
Front cam, crank seals
water pump
Multi-hour diagnostics charges + fix on a check engine light (MAF sensor & something else)
Trans flush
brake fluid flush
steering fluid flush
spark plugs
plug wire set

Came to $1,500 parts and $2,200 labor!!!!!!!!!

Problems I have.........

#1.) They just did the timing belt at 60K miles........why would they NOT do the seals and water pump (basically, all the stuff you do when the cover's off) when they did the timing belt????

#2.) This whole friggin' car ('99 Camry LE i-4) only has 70K miles on it. Why the Fsck are they doing struts???

Anyway.......it got me to wondering what we can do without.

IMHO.............Struts (can go 'til the wheels fall off)..............brake fluid flushes & PS flushes are B.S., imho.

Anybody feel the same/different???

 

[Howard]

plug wires?

 

[redgtxdi]

Agreed.

Although, I recently went ahead & replaced the wires on my '95 Prizm just 'cuz one of 'em was in such bad shape it lost the crimp on the plug-end boot. BUT......since I know insulated copper lasts a heck of a long time, I opted for the $30 Autozone set of wires vs. the $100 dealer version!!


Here's more rant based more on the maintenance vs. my grandmother's work..........

Monroe says to change struts every 50k miles. (WTFLMNOPBBQmy @$$???) 😕

Dealers want you to flush every freakin' fluid in the vehicle about every 30k miles. (Again..WTHMFFFFFFFFFF with a capital F as in Fsck??!?!!!???) 😕

If you did all the things these people want at THEIR intervals vehicles would incur their original purchase price JUST IN MAINTENANCE in about 3 or 4 years!!!!!!!! :roll:

 

[Zenmervolt]

Struts should last 100,000 miles easily unless your grandmother is carrying bags of cement in the trunk. Those are definitely optional.

Seals should be replaced if they are indeed leaking. At the car's mileage, it's odd that they would be leaking. I would ask them to show you the leaks.

The water pump should have been replaced with the timing belt and it's absolutely ridiculous that they didn't.

Transmission flush at 70,000 miles is 40,000 miles overdue. Do it. The biggest cause of transmission failure is people neglecting to flush the fluid every 30,000 miles.

Brake fluid needs to be changed every 2 years period. It absorbs water and if you do not change it regularly it will corrode the brake system from the inside out. Do it.

Steering fluid, meh. Can't hurt and shouldn't be too much money, but unless the pump is making noise, it's probably fine.

Plugs, replace, wires, no.

ZV

 

[redgtxdi]

Agreed on the struts! My '98 Camry (one year older than my granmother's) is at 136,000 miles and still on the original struts. Sure, it could use 'em, but tires are wearing perfectly & suspension's just a little soft.

PLUS............the part & labor cost is ridiculous.

Dealer = $2K for struts

Local mechanic = $700 for KYB (Toyota OEM) and that INCLUDES labor!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I bleed my brakes normally when I do a brake job, introducing new fluid into the reservoir as I go & have never done a brake fluid flush or suffered a brake fluid failure in my 20 years of driving/car ownership!

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
P.S. I bleed my brakes normally when I do a brake job, introducing new fluid into the reservoir as I go & have never done a brake fluid flush or suffered a brake fluid failure in my 20 years of driving/car ownership!

I know. A lot of people do it like that. But it's still not good. A lot of people go 15,000 to 30,000 miles past the timing belt interval too. Taking longer to flush the brake fluid than one should won't cause a failure, not for a long time anyway. What it will do though is cause calipers to start sticking or increase brake fade.

ZV

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi

IMHO.............Struts (can go 'til the wheels fall off)..............brake fluid flushes & PS flushes are B.S., imho.

Anybody feel the same/different???

And you would be wrong. Struts do wear out and it wouldn't surprise me that an 8 year old car with 70k miles on it needs new struts. When your struts wear out it degrades handling and braking, not to mention the extra wear it puts on your tires. The thing with strut wear is because it happens gradually you tend not to notice it.

Changing fluids are not BS either. The fluids in your car get contaminated and break down just like oil and gasoline do over time. They should definitely be replaced periodically.

I'd do the plugs but unless the wires are cracked or damaged they probably don't need to be replaced.

 

[redgtxdi]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus


And you would be wrong. Struts do wear out and it wouldn't surprise me that an 8 year old car with 70k miles on it needs new struts. When your struts wear out it degrades handling and braking, not to mention the extra wear it puts on your tires. The thing with strut wear is because it happens gradually you tend not to notice it.

Changing fluids are not BS either. The fluids in your car get contaminated and break down just like oil and gasoline do over time. They should definitely be replaced periodically.

I'd do the plugs but unless the wires are cracked or damaged they probably don't need to be replaced.

Interestingly enough.......it does surprise me. Remember, I own the same car but one year older ('98) and mine has 130K miles on it running on the original struts. Tire wear is, dare I say, perfect. (Michelin X radials from Costco w/ about 30K on 'em & look like they'll go at least another 30K).

I'm also running a '95 Prizm w/ 147K (as of this week) that I'm about 100% is running the original struts and while I could certainly **WANT** new struts and a softer ride, it affects tire wear, little to none.........(running Michelin X radials also & similar condition).

Brake fluid changes I can understand, though with frequent bleeding, I just don't know. Again, when I do my brakes I take my calipers apart, regrease all slides, and I've yet to see mine doing anything unusual............and there's nobody harder on brakes than myself.

Take all those scenarios and compare them to my grandmother's 70K / '99 and ya, I'm scratchin' my head. (Not to mention they only changed 2 REAR struts) 😕

 

[mrblotto]

Sounds to me like the dealership 'made up' some stuff, took advantage of your gramma's naievette, and told her it HAS to be taken care of just to fleece her out of a large chunk of money. Absolutely insane if you ask me. I never take my vehicle to a dealer garage. I find an honest and competent mechanic and stick with them.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi
Brake fluid changes I can understand, though with frequent bleeding, I just don't know. Again, when I do my brakes I take my calipers apart, regrease all slides, and I've yet to see mine doing anything unusual............and there's nobody harder on brakes than myself.

How often are you changing pads? For most people, brake pads will last 60,000 to 100,000 miles if they aren't being too hard on them. That's 6-10 years for most people. If you're burning through a set of brake pads every couple years, then sure, you're fine just bleeding the system through at that time, but that's uncommon.

ZV

 

[T2urtle]

wtf... how would a dealership do a timing belt without a water pump? They do both at the same time unless she asked not to for a reason.

the flushes i wouldn't do. maybe the trans if anything.

Get a full list of faults and myself or some of the other people here can properly diagnosis your CEL because a 5s-fe engine is rather very common and easily to find out whats wrong.

You can honestly do the spark plug and wires for her if needed. Everything is right in front of you. Often times the rear struts do blow on these cars but they are not worth 1k for a job. my mom's 96 has 2 rear blown ones, been driving it. Just saggs in the rear thats all. Mass air flow can be easily replaced by yourself as well.

Only thing i would do is the seals at the dealership because i dont know your level of mechanical skills and it can get to be a dirty job. The plugs and wires and mass air flow almost 95% who want to know can do this without getting dirty or breaking a sweat.

The flushes are just a main target of a slow season and bringing in a old car. This is why dealerships are also known as stealerships.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: T2urtle
The flushes are just a main target of a slow season and bringing in a old car. This is why dealerships are also known as stealerships.

As explained earlier, brake fluid is hygroscopic, that is, it readily absorbs and retains water. Proper maintenance dictates changing it every two years.

As also explained earlier, flushing the transmission every 30,000 miles is proper preventive maintenance. Flushing every 30,000 miles often means the difference between a transmission that lasts only 120,000 miles and one that lasts 200,000+. The stories that you hear about automatics being less reliable than manuals are largely due to owners who neglect this maintenance.

The PS flush may be a little much, but that fluid does get old too.

ZV

EDIT: Blown struts will NOT cause the car to sag. The shock-absorbing part of the strut plays no part in the car's ride height. If the rear sags, it's because the springs are weak, not because the struts have blown. Blown struts will cause the car to bounce excessively over undulations in the road because they will fail to properly damp the natural oscillation of the coil springs.

 

[TitanDiddly]

I would be suspicious that that dealership was trying to make your grandmother pay for extra unnecessary work. Maybe they didn't even do it! I'd go over and have a nice chat with the dealer.

 

[redgtxdi]

FWIW, I can see why they might wanna flush brake fluid on her car.....(sorta').......being that she's still on her original brakes (good for her, but I'd have been glad to bleed 'em for her in about a half hour).

Unfortunately, she didn't show me this stuff 'til the end of my visit & she lives an hour or so away from me, so I wouldn't be able to get back out there 'til next weekend.

But ya, I'm a little perturbed at the fact that they did the TB at 60k WITHOUT doing the water pump, seals, etc. (I always tell the dealer to do ANYTHING THEY CAN DO WHILE THAT FRONT COVER'S OFF whenever a TB job is done).

I'm a little less upset today after simmering on it, but I still feel that they took a little bit of an advantage of her.

 

[T2urtle]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt


As explained earlier, brake fluid is hygroscopic, that is, it readily absorbs and retains water. Proper maintenance dictates changing it every two years.

Yes that is true but if your brakes was never serviced at any time, it would not be exposed because it is a closed system.


You might be right on the blown strut part, my thoughts was since it was physically leaking it would not be able to be fully extended to keep the car at stock ride height. AFAIK springs aren't really suppose to sag. I know the dampening isn't there.





is a 60k service a TB/ water pump? seems a little earlier on that car. I dont know the actual times but most TB/ water pumps are 80k internvals and thats preventative maintence only.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: redgtxdi

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus


And you would be wrong. Struts do wear out and it wouldn't surprise me that an 8 year old car with 70k miles on it needs new struts. When your struts wear out it degrades handling and braking, not to mention the extra wear it puts on your tires. The thing with strut wear is because it happens gradually you tend not to notice it.

Changing fluids are not BS either. The fluids in your car get contaminated and break down just like oil and gasoline do over time. They should definitely be replaced periodically.

I'd do the plugs but unless the wires are cracked or damaged they probably don't need to be replaced.

Interestingly enough.......it does surprise me. Remember, I own the same car but one year older ('98) and mine has 130K miles on it running on the original struts. Tire wear is, dare I say, perfect. (Michelin X radials from Costco w/ about 30K on 'em & look like they'll go at least another 30K).

I'm also running a '95 Prizm w/ 147K (as of this week) that I'm about 100% is running the original struts and while I could certainly **WANT** new struts and a softer ride, it affects tire wear, little to none.........(running Michelin X radials also & similar condition).

Brake fluid changes I can understand, though with frequent bleeding, I just don't know. Again, when I do my brakes I take my calipers apart, regrease all slides, and I've yet to see mine doing anything unusual............and there's nobody harder on brakes than myself.

Take all those scenarios and compare them to my grandmother's 70K / '99 and ya, I'm scratchin' my head. (Not to mention they only changed 2 REAR struts) 😕

I bought a 10 year old car a few years ago with 64k miles on it and it had one front shock that was completely blown out so I replaced all four shocks-when I removed it the shaft just slid right down into the barrel. It made a huge difference in handling too.

I also had a BMW 325i that needed struts/shocks at around 80k miles. One of the fronts was leaking and tires were not wearing evenly. New struts/shocks made that car feel brand new. I bought them online and installed them myself. Still, the parts alone cost almost a grand.

Sounds like she may have had a blown rear strut. You can't replace just one either. They need to be replaced in pairs. However, $1k for two rear struts seems excessive. Rears are usually easier to replace and cheaper than the fronts.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: T2urtle

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
As explained earlier, brake fluid is hygroscopic, that is, it readily absorbs and retains water. Proper maintenance dictates changing it every two years.

Yes that is true but if your brakes was never serviced at any time, it would not be exposed because it is a closed system.

Not true. The system is not airtight at the reservoir and the brake fluid is continuously pulling in moisture from the air. If the system were airtight at the reservoir, then it would not be able to compensate for brake pad wear as the vacuum in the reservoir would pull the caliper pistons fully back after you released the brake pedal. The reservoir has to allow for air exchange to accommodate the fact that the caliper pistons remain further extended as the pads wear, which reduces the fluid level in the reservoir.

Originally posted by: T2urtle
You might be right on the blown strut part, my thoughts was since it was physically leaking it would not be able to be fully extended to keep the car at stock ride height. AFAIK springs aren't really suppose to sag. I know the dampening isn't there.

The shock offers zero support for the vehicle's weight. If the vehicle is sagging, the spring has either gone weak (springs get old and fatigue like anything else, especially after 10 years) or it has broken (fairly common for a spring to break near the mounting point where it's covered and allow the car to drop slightly lower).

Originally posted by: T2urtle
is a 60k service a TB/ water pump? seems a little earlier on that car. I dont know the actual times but most TB/ water pumps are 80k internvals and thats preventative maintence only.

On the '98 Camry, the timing belt interval is 90,000 miles, though typically such things are stated as "9 years or 90,000 miles". Rubber ages like anything else and belts do fail from age and not just miles. Still, proper preventive maintenance does dictate changing the water pump with the timing belt and I agree that it's very odd that it wasn't does before.

ZV