What are your thoughts on children?

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
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I am writing this in the midst of thoughts of one of my best friends getting engaged, my sister recently married, etc. I come from a large family, my mother was one of sixteen children, I have oodles and oodles of aunts and uncles and cousins.

I suppose I've spent most of my life around kids.

But my parents have never really "devoted" their lives to me. My mom did some of the soccer mom thing, but more in the sense of taking turns with other working mothers. My father never did anything with regards to fathering, other than visiting him occasionally. (we are getting closer, however) My mother went back to work after my brother and I were four or five months old, I think.

So it always came as a surprise to talk to friends whose mothers stayed home from their birth until they were ten or eleven. I never understood the mentality behind it. My mother and I are close, we trust each other, and we respect one another; I don't ever recall any angst or anger while I was in daycare or after-school activities. Not to mention that many of the adults I meet seem to be on the same emotional/intellectual level as some of the teens I used to work with in church groups.

The driving force behind all of this was a Bill Maher bit on children, talking about how the entertainment industry has been suddenly geared entirely towards children - most adults are hard-pressed to find a movie that is on an adult level (in terms of humor, content, etc, you perverts :p), much less most new music. I am hardpressed as a young adult to find any movies of sufficient worth, especially since most of the crap spewed out is made for teens (or, even if made for adults, is still supposed to be "kid friendly")

Not to mention some of the bits I see on television or from other young people, how kids are supposed to be the most important thing for everyone, how they're so precious, blah blah blah. What's the line from Dilbert? "No one wants to hear that they have an ugly baby."

The fact is, no, babies are not always precious, they're not always cute. They're whiny, messy brats who think the world revolves around them. Kids and teens are the same way. Not only that, most adults like to have *gasp* adult fun - that includes jokes, reading, movies, food; we aren't all fans of Shrek and Britney Spears, and we certainly don't like to have some two-year-old with bad parents screaming while we're trying to enjoy our nice Italian meal.

I'm learning this myself, so don't shoot back with some smart-assed reply in that vein.

I would like to hear other peoples' thoughts on this.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Personally, I hate kids because they are so fvcking whiny and obnoxious. Not to mention the fact that they can't take care of themselves and are pretty much little dumbfvcks until they mature somewhere around age 18-25. Now, I do like my sister's kids but I don't like random little kids at the mall or while I am getting groceries. I also don't want to him about someone's little snot nosed brat unless said kid was just born. Then I can temporarily put off my hatred for them until about age two when they start to become annoying.

I think the blame for kids acting like little pretentious asswipes is the Parent's that use the TV or computer to babysit them and refuse to make their kids take responsibility. Other than that I don't really have a problem with kids. As long at they stay out of my personal space they are ok. I can't, however, stand for people to tell me stories about their kids. They don't seem to understand that I don't care.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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I suppose I should add this as well - I love children, very much so. My young cousins are some of my favorite people to spend time with. But I would never consider spending all of my time with them. They need their time to be kids and be with friends and I need my time to read books on taxation, economics, and constitutional law. :p

I also recall at some point hearing from the mother of a rather conservative friend of mine about the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, and one in particular that she was "outraged" about, namely the right of religious freedom. I thought it interesting because at the time, I thought she was some stodgy, old conservative who was just overzealous. But now that I am trying to think about it from the viewpoint of a parent, I think that I can understand her anger a little more - namely that when raising a child, you generally do it within a framework. For many of my friends, it's Christianity. Very set rules, in some ways, a very genuine theology.

And when raising children in that sort of environment, the last thing you need when they are young is someone saying "believe whatever you wish to believe". There is always a process of separation from ones' parents - but when attempting to instill moral values and ideas within a person, the last thing you need is that person thinking they know everything, and that they can believe however they wish.

I hope this makes some sense.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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I'm "old school" when it comes to kids. My kids will say ma'am and sir. They will be respectful, of course not all of the time, but I will raise them to be good, upstanding, moral citizens.

They will be home schooled with a parent at home during the day. No TV other than PBS and the like.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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Raising kids is a subject that should be taught in school. It's one of the most important things we do in life, yet it's never even touched on. Hah! That, and purchasing real estate and automobiles. The two largest purchases we ever make, again, not even glossed over during school! Guess the best place to learn that is from parents, but they've passed through the same schools without being taught these things either. Pathetic...

Remember Dan Quayle being blasted for pointing out Murphy Brown's irresponsible, single parent example? At the time I thought it was pretty convenient that the kid was only ever mentioned in a few episodes, let alone the 24 hour a day responsibility that a newborn really is! The show just went on with the baby shoved in the background... frequently cared for by a handyman as I recall. Just like real life, eh?
rolleye.gif


In an ideal situation, couples would wait a good while before having kids. They'd make sure they're compatible, instead of winding up as one of the 50% divorce statistics. That's always a great way to raise a kid. As a single parent, right?

Ideally, a couple would be earning enough on one income, so that the other parent could stay home to raise the kid(s). Kinda hard to do with two new SUVs, 50" plasma TV, cell phone, cable, and a hundred and one assorted other payments. But don't worry, I'm sure the local day care will give top priority to little Percy.
rolleye.gif
But hey, some parents don't trust strangers with their kids, or they're too cheap to cough up the bucks for a quality day care, so they turn to mom & pop or a sibling to look after their children. Wow, that's a great idea! Save money and have trusted souls watch the kids! I can only hope those kids pull that same stunt when their parents are ready to retire.

Bottom line: Don't have kids till you're good and ready, and be prepared to raise them yourself. That would be ideal. Best for the kids, best for grandma & grandpa and best for society. We can't always have what's best, but that's something to strive for, and certainly not impossible.
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ornery
Raising kids is a subject that should be taught in school. It's one of the most important things we do in life, yet it's never even touched on.

I don't trust the school system to teach my kids, much less teach them how to raise my grandkids.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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They could certainly touch on important points, like:What do you think the purpose of public education is, anyway? :confused:
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ornery
They could certainly touch on important points, like:What do you think the purpose of public education is, anyway? :confused:

Good luck with that. I know what the purpose of public education is, but apparently the government has forgotten. With schools in California handing out surveys to children about whether they decided to be heterosexual or if they felt it was forced on them, and with schools afraid to tell children that there are winners and losers (no scores in sports in some schools), and with the schools afraid to correctly discipline children, the school system in America is beyond hope in my eyes.

You've got the stupid kids failing because no one will teach them how to think, and the smart kids falling asleep and losing their edge because the schools don't nuture their abilities.

The school system is a touchy subject for me. :)
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ornery
100% agreed! That's why I support School Choice! I hope everybody considers that issue when selecting candidates.

While that may help, in my opinion only the total destruction and rebuilding of the school system in America can change anything.

I made a huge post about it a few months ago. I can dig it up if you're interested. It's a fairly radical change, but since America keeps falling behind we have to do something. We're only a few generations away from being too stupid to defend our freedoms.
 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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02/04/2003 2:36 AM


I'll enter into the fray. I say that we must first look outside of the school system.

Children are less disciplined now. They are allowed to run wild and do as they will. In my opinion, children need a structured environment. That's not to say that they need to be beat every night, but they need to learn respect for their parents, teachers, and others. They need a mother and a father.

Children are told that they are all special. Yes, to their parents they are, for the most part. The thing is that no one outside of their family cares. The world is a competative place where some people are better than others at different things. Some excel at academics, some at athletics, some at trade skills. Some are just failures. Children need a good rounded education, but they need to be allowed to excel at what they are good at.

I submit that a well disciplined child, brought up with a hearty respect for authority (but not so much that they are a mindless drone) and a good awareness that they need to compete to succeed will do well, in general.

I also say that they need to bring back paddling and other such punishments in school. Where I went to school, if we misbehaved we had to hold 3 books in each hand with our arms stretched out. Not fun.


As far as the school system end, fire everyone that has anything to do with public schools. Everyone. Take a look at where the schools need to go. The children need loving, intelligent teachers and administrators that will encourage them to be competative and to think for themselves. I can't stress that enough. Schools should teach children how to think, not what to think.

Next, institute various programs for various people. Have the administrators sit down with the parents and the student. Decide what path is best for them. Have large trade and vocational programs. Encourage children who excel at those skills to really work at them. Do the same with academic programs.

Don't be afraid to fail students. This lets them know that if they come unprepared in school, they will fail. Just like in real life. Also, don't teach down to the dumbest kid. Make him work harder to keep up. If he doesn't, find out why. If he still can't hang, put him in a slower class.

Encourage PE, sports, and all extracuricular activity. Get children outside. Sports encourage teamwork, and being in a club helps build social skills that are key to the student's success. Encourage children to explore, to wonder, and to find out why things are.

Change the hours of school to a more normal time. Most people work something like 7-4 or 8-5. Schools should keep such hours. Get rid of summer break. Very few children go out and work on the farm in the summer.

Lastly, encourage debate in school. Give them a topic like immigration, evolution, or anything like that to debate.

Now, rehire for the school system based on faculty who will fit in to such an environment. Spend more money on teachers, but make sure that they are good. You want them to make learning fun.

Well, I think that's it.
<puts on flamesuit>
First of all, there's no need for physical punishment, which is frequently confused with discipline. Kids could be sent to special classes for misbehaving. Those classes could be taught by special tutors, and their pay could be reimbursed by the parents of the children who misbehave.

Second, school is not day care, though some parents think it is.

Third, no more money for teachers. If the school system they work for doesn't pay enough, they don't have to work there... for 180 days per year
rolleye.gif


Personally, I'd like to see a distance learning model adopted. Kids that thrive under that style of learning could continue with it. Others, who need hands on tutoring, could attend a more classic school setting. Cheaper for sure, and very doable!
 

Chaotic42

Lifer
Jun 15, 2001
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Originally posted by: Ornery
First of all, there's no need for physical punishment, which is frequently confused with discipline. Kids could be sent to special classes for misbehaving. Those classes could be taught by special tutors, and their pay could be reimbursed by the parents of the children who misbehave.

Well, that could work, but I know from first hand knowledge that physical punishment works. In school we got paddled if we got two checks by our name. You could handle being chastised by the teacher, or put in another room, but very few dared to get the second check mark. If they did, they behaved the rest of the day (and usually for a good while after that). It doesn't work in all cases, but it seems more effective than what's in schools today.
Second, no more money for teachers. If the school system they work for doesn't pay enough, they don't have to work there, for 180 days per year
rolleye.gif

No, I say more money for teachers and we need to expect them to perform better. They have one of the most important jobs in the country. They'd better be damned good at it. That takes monetary incentive.
School is not day care, though some parents think it is.

That's a whole other issue. School is only part of the child development process.

 

Ornery

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
20,022
17
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This is discipline. No paddles needed.

The older kids get, the less they need a teacher looking over their shoulder. Most high school teachers just regurgitate the same spiel, class after class throughout the day, year after year. Hell, a video tape would work as well! That's why I'd like to see distance learning become feasible in public education. Many kids would do just fine with that. it's not the duty of the school to baby sit your kid, or supply physical education and a social atmosphere. The focus of the school should be narrowed to education, period.
 

Kevin

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2002
3,995
1
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Children are a product of their parents. Thats why when you go out, some children are well behaved and respectful whereas others are rude and troulbesome. I've gone out to dinner a few times and there have been screaming kids and quiet, well-mannered kids. Often I would go up to the parents of the good behaving child and complement them. Almost all of them take pride in their child's behavior...
 

nativesunshine

Diamond Member
Jan 6, 2003
3,284
0
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I love kids...I can't wait til I have my own (when i'm 30+ though)...

but before I have kids of my own..I'll just spend my time watching over other people's kids.

<--early childhood education major (thinking about teaching 2nd grade). w00t!
 

guapo337

Platinum Member
Apr 7, 2003
2,580
0
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My mom hasn't worked full time since my sister was born (she's 21 now, I'm 16). My father works full time, but he's awake in the morning (with my mother) while I'm eating breakfast and heading off to school. My parents are some of the only parents I know who are asking their kid if he needs a ride somewhere. Most other parents in my town just drop their kid off and expect them to get home somehow. My father plans his business trips around my major athletic competitions. Unless both parents have conflicts they can't avoid, atleast one will always be at any athletic competition I have. I will always have a ride home from one, even if there is a bus provided, and the drive is 2 hours long. As far as practices goes, my mother expects to pick me up, and if she can't, she makes sure I know that I need to find a ride.
 

Banana

Diamond Member
Jun 3, 2001
3,132
23
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Funny you should mention it. In terms of how many kids I want, I would say zero or one at most. My decision is based on practical factors such as
1) The world is too damn crowded
2) Not enough money to provide the child/ren with a good life
3) The world is too unpleasant to inflict upon yet another human
4) I don't know if we will be good parents

I created this poll in honor of Orsorum's thread.
 

thedarkwolf

Diamond Member
Oct 13, 1999
9,024
118
106
Kids are another status symbol alteast with a lot of people. They have to have a big house, 2 new cars, bunch of other fancy crap, and 2.3 kids. They don't want to actually raise the kids. They just want to be able to wip out pics and get the "oh how cute" at work while the kids spend all day in day care.
 

prvteye2003

Diamond Member
Jun 19, 2003
3,876
1
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Originally posted by: Millennium
Personally, I hate kids because they are so fvcking whiny and obnoxious. Not to mention the fact that they can't take care of themselves and are pretty much little dumbfvcks until they mature somewhere around age 18-25. Now, I do like my sister's kids but I don't like random little kids at the mall or while I am getting groceries. I also don't want to him about someone's little snot nosed brat unless said kid was just born. Then I can temporarily put off my hatred for them until about age two when they start to become annoying.

I think the blame for kids acting like little pretentious asswipes is the Parent's that use the TV or computer to babysit them and refuse to make their kids take responsibility. Other than that I don't really have a problem with kids. As long at they stay out of my personal space they are ok. I can't, however, stand for people to tell me stories about their kids. They don't seem to understand that I don't care.

obviously, you have none and don't deserve any if you ever decide to have one. Just go cut off your little wanker now and spare us all.