What an open marriage taught one man about feminism

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rommelrommel

Diamond Member
Dec 7, 2002
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I personally know a guy who lost count after woman #100 and thinks he may be closing in on #200. Considering he's been hit on by random women every time I've gone out with him, I believe it.

I also consider him to be a man whore. There's enjoying one's self and then there's excess.

However, he's not married and if all his female companions are in it for the quick bang and are satisfied with just that then no harm, no foul. Were he married, my opinion of him would be the same as the author's wife -- someone who wants to have it both ways and doesn't respect their partner.

Yup, I have a friend who hit 100 around 25, is probably well past 200 now.

Thing is, he's 30 now and has to wear that one when he laments how hard it is to find someone to settle down with. Unless he ditched all his friends and moved to another town I don't know how he could keep his past a total secret from a new partner.

Read the first few paragraphs and got board.

"Open marriage" is like an oxymoron. Why the fuck get married? Would be unacceptable for me and when you light that candle at your wedding it means ONE!

What a bag of roach shit!

I do know one poly married couple. It works for them, they got married with that understanding. She is bi and seeks that outside of their marriage (obviously.) I think more power to them.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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Thing is, he's 30 now and has to wear that one when he laments how hard it is to find someone to settle down with. Unless he ditched all his friends and moved to another town I don't know how he could keep his past a total secret from a new partner.

I don't know why he would even try. My experience is that women tend to care a lot less about that sort of thing then men do. It is probably because women tend to have a lot more sexual partners than men in general.


I do know one poly married couple. It works for them, they got married with that understanding. She is bi and seeks that outside of their marriage (obviously.) I think more power to them.

I can say with some certainty that monogamous couples that decides after a few years of marriage to have an open relationship very rarely works. It is almost always a case of an ultimatum, one of the partners (and it seems to be a fairly 50/50 split on which one) tells the other that they must be allowed to date other people or they are going to end the marriage and the other person capitulates because they are afraid to end the relationship. They then go through a slow motion self-destruction, often taking several other people along for the terrible ride.

But a couple that starts as poly often forms happy and long lasting relationships with multiple partners.

You simply can't do poly under duress.
 

Exophase

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2012
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It is probably because women tend to have a lot more sexual partners than men in general.

Do you have a source for this? I'm particular curious if anyone has a study with data split out in histograms showing what percentage of males and females have had N sexual encounters.
 

Phokus

Lifer
Nov 20, 1999
22,994
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Do you have a source for this? I'm particular curious if anyone has a study with data split out in histograms showing what percentage of males and females have had N sexual encounters.

Careful with the sources, women tend to lie about that stuff and won't give their true number, you have to look at the methodology of how they collect that.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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There are many more:
- More people = greater complexity
- More problems
- Like Level Sea said, less nagging
- 2 females for extended periods of time together = cat fight/drama
- Limited time with each member. I dedicate TONS of time to my marriage, and I would love to do more. With 2 women, that would be so much worse!
- 2 sets of inlaws <<<<that's a deal breaker
- too many kids?
- Financial complexity
- legal complexity
- higher risk of STD
- lesser connection

I'm sure I can think of many more.....

and I'm sure there is pros to Poly as well, unfortunately I don't really think I care for any of them. But that's just me.

I'm not saying Poly relationships are wrong either.

Trade-offs:
-More people to do chores/get shit done. Tired of switching off one or the other for who does the dishes? Now you have a 3rd to help!
-Problems with babies / taking care of kids? Now you have 3 parents to set the kids straight. Especially during terrible 2's, it would be easier to switch-off who tends to the baby at 3:00am because the other didn't get any sleep and has to wake up at 5am

Plus when it's the time of the month for one of them, you can always go have fun with the other!
 

CZroe

Lifer
Jun 24, 2001
24,195
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Haven't read the whole thread yet, but can someone tell me what a "cuckold fetish" is? What's a "cuckold," first of all?
Cum dumpster. Do you have similar pejoratives for men who like to fuck a lot?

Man-whore.
STD-stud.
Gonorrhea guy.
Playboy.
Promiscuous... man.
:colbert:
 
Nov 8, 2012
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Sonmore concludes:

"When my wife told me she wanted to open our marriage and take other lovers, she wasn&#8217;t rejecting me, she was embracing herself. When I understood that, I finally became a feminist."

This revelation makes more sense. It&#8217;s clearer than the point he seems to have muddled through earlier in the piece: after all, feminism is not &#8220;agreeing to whatever terms a woman sets for a relationship on account of having been so historically fucked over.&#8221; But if a man can fully understand and accept his wife as a fully complex person with desires and needs all her own, and then sets out to negotiate those with her on equal footing? Yeah. That&#8217;s feminism. If that comes through a discussion about sleeping with other people, so be it. We all find our own path to the light. The question is no longer whether marriage can withstand all this feminism, but rather, all this equality.

Every. Single. Straight. Male. in the entire fucking world would take 2 chicks at the same time. When will women understand this from men and accept it? Embrace it?

Oh wait, they don't and never will because if anything they get jealous. Man, we need our own male movement so I can somehow justify banging other chicks and her "embracing" it.


(202)456-1111

ask for the bitch in charge of the house

Quit making me spit my drink everywhere. I fucking hate cleaning off my monitor.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,150
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There's something fundamental to the human condition that reaches its greatest heights in committing. This works on the social-psychological level, in that we attribute all sorts of other positive attributes to someone if they are our singular source of sexual intercourse; it works on an evolutionary anthropological level, in that societies throughout history that seek to avoid war are also those that seek 1:1 marriages; it works bio-chemically, with individual pheromones and visual-impressions leading to specific reward mechanisms that are dissipated outside of a monogamous relationship.

There are major benefits to being in a 1:1 relationship; benefits that you give up if you become poly-amorous/sex-positive. The benefits of the poly/positive side are apparent; even sheep have more sex when it's not the same old ewe.

You can't gain the benefits of monogamy without being monogamous.

I was just having fun with my post. I believe that evolution has created monogamy to be the human norm greatest impediment to its universality is self hate. We all hate ourselves but most don't know it, but the result is an inevitable contempt for anybody who would dare to love us. "Only an idiot could possibly love me and I don't want to be with an idiot." This phenomenon can be confirmed via psychoanalysis of low self esteem people. It's the leap to the realization of universal application that takes hard work.

I believe that when you love one person it is not possible to love another so that whatever it is that binds polyamorous people together, in my opinion it isn't love, not love that makes any sense to me. Am I a bigot, I do not know. I can't imagine how a man could feel sexual toward another man, but I can easily understand and support gay marriage. I understand romantic love of one person for another. To me love is the filling of ones cup where no more can be poured in. People who want multiple relationships, to my mind, have a hole in their cup they are looking to refill. One person completes another. If one can't do it an infinite number won't either.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
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Reading this I think you might be under a false impression of what a polyamorous relationship is. Polyamory is not swinging. Polyamory is simply having more than one long term romantic partner at a time.
I was not referring to swinging only. Though I agree there's a useful distinction between a marriage to one person, a marriage between three people, and just having lots of random sex.

Monogamy is great for those it works for, but it is disastrous for those it does not, just as many would be miserable if society tried to force them into polyamory.
I wouldn't want to deny someone the right to live how they choose. My argument is entirely that it is more wise to choose a social norm strongly tilted toward monogamy.


I'm not at all sure where you are going with the fundamental attribution error, you might have to expound on how you see that being a strength of monogamy. As for mutualistic interactions and vasopressin and and oxytocin attenuation, both of those are actually improved in long term poly relationships as opposed to monogamous ones.



I'm not looking for a dissertation. I'm more interested in your thoughts on the subject than proving some facts.

Since you're familiar with the fundamental attribution error I'll let you decide if you can make a strong enough case for it to apply here. My biggest problem with the 'theory' is that it's called an 'error'.

*********

I was just thinking about this thread and Peacocks came to mind.

Pea-hens don't have big tail feathers because they don't need to attract a mate; instead they select the mate.

Species where the women does the selecting see greater sex disparities.

Humans tend toward a nearly 1:1 ratio; with a history of male-on-male violence skewing that to men being slightly larger.

If we move toward a system where rich/powerful men get many more women (I can't think of a non-naive/pedantic way around it) then we set society on a collision course with war.

A wife and child calm a man down, make him more interested in his family and wife. If the top 10% have 90% of the women, that leads 90% of the men for cannon-fodder... and perhaps a new religion where they are rewarded with women themselves, should they do what the 10% tell them.

Those that locally optimize their happiness (blind to the overall sociological impact) also negatively influence overall happiness; which has a feed-back impact on individual happiness in a global sense.

As for mutualistic interactions and vasopressin and and oxytocin attenuation, both of those are actually improved in long term poly relationships as opposed to monogamous ones.

I don't think the basic theory, which is essentially "a person can become addicted to another person", predicts or explains this your argument. It seems that if I'm addicted to coke, meth and my three wives then I've got to make choices... I'm happy to hear more of your thinking though.

I'd also like your take on what MoonBeam has to say here:
One person completes another. If one can't do it an infinite number won't either.
It rings with deep sense of truth for me.

********

She dreamed one night that she had written a poem so beautiful, so wise, so close to the ultimate truth of life that she was immediately acclaimed by all the peoples on the earth as the greatest poet and philosopher of all the ages. Still half asleep as the dream ended, she stumbled out of bed and scribbled the poem down, realizing that she must take no risk of forgetting such deathless lines. She awoke in the morning with the feeling that something wonderful was about to happen&#8212;oh, yes! Her poem.

She clutched the precious paper and, tense with excitement, read the words she had written. Here they are:

Hogamus Higamus
Men are Polygamous
Higamus Hogamus
Women Monogamous
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,041
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Haven't read the whole thread yet, but can someone tell me what a "cuckold fetish" is? What's a "cuckold," first of all?


Man-whore.
STD-stud.
Gonorrhea guy.
Playboy.
Promiscuous... man.
:colbert:
Those are all just as empty as slurs for white people. As for what is a cuckold, if you can't infer it from the context you know how to use a dictionary.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,041
30,326
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...

If we move toward a system where rich/powerful men get many more women (I can't think of a non-naive/pedantic way around it) then we set society on a collision course with war.

...
I don't really buy this. Rich men have always gotten more women.
 

SMOGZINN

Lifer
Jun 17, 2005
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Thank you for a great response!

Since you're familiar with the fundamental attribution error I'll let you decide if you can make a strong enough case for it to apply here. My biggest problem with the 'theory' is that it's called an 'error'.
Lets make sure we are talking about the same thing. The fundamental attribution error is a classical cognitive bias in psychology where a person has a tendency to attribute other people's errors on internal attributes, but their own failures on external ones.

If your business fails it is because you are lazy and did not work hard enough. If my business fails it is because the system is rigged against me.


Pea-hens don't have big tail feathers because they don't need to attract a mate; instead they select the mate. Humans tend toward a nearly 1:1 ratio; with a history of male-on-male violence skewing that to men being slightly larger.
So, from this we get that in humans the choices are pretty equal. Both men and women get to choose their mate. That is truer now than it has been in all of history (probably).

If we move toward a system where rich/powerful men get many more women (I can't think of a non-naive/pedantic way around it) then we set society on a collision course with war.
Why would this happen? First off you are assuming that the rich/powerful are all men. There are powerful women too, and one they will take more men. And really, there simply is not that many really powerful people around to make that much of a difference. Donald Trump is not going to end up with 3 million wives. Even if every the rich and powerful man end up with 3 wives each the effect is going to be miniscule.

But most importantly remember, the women get to choose as well. This almost completely negates this effect. If we are looking at it as a purely cynical 'women want rich and powerful men to increase their status' than we see that sharing a rich and powerful man reduces the overall status and power she will receive from him. Sharing a lower upper class man with 30 other women is not going to bring much power or status to her, she is better off with a upper middle class man with only one other wife.


If the top 10% have 90% of the women, that leads 90% of the men for cannon-fodder.
See, as long as women get to choose this is the sort of thing that can never happen. Simply because they will choose to bring other men in to it as well. The Harem version of poly (one man with many wives) is the least popular when women get a choice.

I don't think the basic theory, which is essentially "a person can become addicted to another person", predicts or explains this your argument. It seems that if I'm addicted to coke, meth and my three wives then I've got to make choices... I'm happy to hear more of your thinking though.
Okay, lets look at the two separate things, mutualistic interactions and oxytocin attenuation.

Mutualistic interactions are all about how distinctly different groups interact to enhance each other. The idea is that in monogamous relationships there are things that women bring to the relationship that compliments what men bring. I don't really support the whole 'men are from mars' mentality as I think it is overly reductionist, but lets run with it for this discussion. In poly families you have multiple partners, each that bring something to the table that the others don't, that (at least in a functionally family) are focused on cooperation instead of competition. Since no one man or women can bring everything masculine or feminine to a relationship we can easily see that Mutualistic interactions are improved the more people you can bring together in a familial cooperative group. This is how most of the world works with extended family units living together for this very reason. Poly families tap into this exact same dynamic.

Oxytocin attenuation is all about novel experience. The effects of oxytocin is highly subjective based on circumstance. It strengthens pair bonding up to a point, at which point it starts to weaken it. But adding a third person into the mix more than doubles the amount of time it takes for the pair bond strengthening effect to attenuate. Adding too many people into the mix might keep the pair bonding from happening at all, the research on that is really inconclusive at this time. There is a whole lot of questions around this yet. Quite frankly we are not at all sure how oxytocin works. Remember that the entire oxytocin research has been conducted using blood test for oxytocin during pair bonding exercises, but this research is drawn into question by the fact that we know that oxytocin is not capable of crossing the blood-brain barrier. We are simply assuming that blood oxytocin levels is indicative of neuro-oxytocin levels. That assumption might not be justified.
(I'm leaving vasopressin out of this for simplicity, it does not really fit into a conversation about sexuality.)


I'd also like your take on what MoonBeam has to say here:
One person completes another. If one can't do it an infinite number won't either.
It rings with deep sense of truth for me.
This is complex. There is two parts of this.
I don't think another person can complete you. If you are not complete already no one else will ever be able to do it for you. Requiring someone else to fill some hole inside of you will do nothing but make both of you miserable. Find happiness in yourself then share it with others, don't look for others to give their happiness to you.

I also don't think that any one person could ever possibly be everything I need. I am a complex person, with complex needs. I want a great lover. I want a great conversationalist. I want a great thinker. I want a great adventurer. I want someone that is enthusiastic about life and full of energy and optimism that will spur me to try new things and take risks. I want someone that is content to sit quietly on the side of a river and spend a weekend meditating. I want someone that will leave me alone when I am tired of dealing with people.
I can't be all those people to anyone.
It is unfair to ask one person to be all those things for me.
 

OverVolt

Lifer
Aug 31, 2002
14,278
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What the fuck just happened in this thread?

ATOT is like a psych ward now. Except me. I'm one of the normal ones who put up with it. I Reallllllly need to stop visiting because I can't really see you guys in person. Alot of the bullshit said on the forum would be so obviously bullshit in real life. Instead of having to take everything point by point so seriously I'm pretty sure most people on ATOT would just get laughed out.