What Americans Don’t Get About Nordic Countries

[mysticjbyrd]

lol @ 3-fold higher consumption taxes being minor

lol @ America having unaffordable college

I'd like to know what the difference is between any of these "Nordic" systems, and, say, the Spain or France. Everyone knows that Finland has excellent schools and excellent standardized exam scores. So does South Korea. I'd imagine that Spain and France have social programs with more in common with Scandinavia than they do with South Korea, yet Spain and France will consistently rank lower. Simply saying that Finland does it "smart" is about as meaningful as Trump saying he's going to do it "great".

EDIT: Also, from what I'm finding, Sweden's international test scores have been gradually falling over the last decade or so. I'm not sure if there are studies showing a discrepancy between Swedish natives vs immigrants, but I'd imagine that heterogeneity is at least partially responsible for that decline.

What year did you get out of college? If you think it's affordable, then I am guessing before the 90s, or you didn't go.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

What year did you get out of college? If you think it's affordable, then I am guessing before the 90s, or you didn't go.

I graduated spring of 2013. I'm now into the third year of my PhD. I'm guessing you attended a private college or one out-of-state.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

I graduated spring of 2013. I'm now into the third year of my PhD. I'm guessing you attended a private college or one out-of-state.

No, I couldn't afford either of those options, though there was a four year private school near where I lived. I could have possibly commuted there, but it's not a very good school.

I went to a cc, and two public schools.

I highly recommend community college, if you live near one. Most two year degrees are worthless, but if you use it as a stepping stone, it's a lot cheaper than spending two years at a four year school for your general education. If you aren't interested in becoming a psychologist, it won't matter where you take the course.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

I agree that community college is another great alternative to the usual route.

 

[Slew Foot]

Youd have more support for government services if everyone was able to use them. As it is, only poor/lazy/unemployed/illegals get to use most entitlement programs, which creates resentment on the part of the people who have to actually work for a living.

That and the fact that the American government is full of paid off assholes who are only looking out for their corporate sponsors.

 

[Sonikku]

It's a pity Americans direct their resentment at the poor and unemployed getting government services when they could be resentful of all the corporate sponsors getting lucrative handouts from the government and tax payers instead. If Big Oil gets a 7 bil handout from taxpayers I guess it's because they clearly earned it?

 

[Jhhnn]

Youd have more support for government services if everyone was able to use them. As it is, only poor/lazy/unemployed/illegals get to use most entitlement programs, which creates resentment on the part of the people who have to actually work for a living.

That and the fact that the American government is full of paid off assholes who are only looking out for their corporate sponsors.

So why not just feel good about not needing it & knowing it's there if you ever do?

Is there some value in smug self righteousness & slander? How the Hell can you be jealous of poor people?

I got a lot more out of working than poor people ever get out of assistance & feel damned lucky it's turned out that way.

 

[UglyCasanova]

Drive around Scandinavia and then drive around the US, There is a lot more than just healthcare that's different. For better and worse it's just not apples to apples of a comparison.

 

[Meghan54]

lol @ America having unaffordable college

What year did you get out of college? If you think it's affordable, then I am guessing before the 90s, or you didn't go.

I graduated spring of 2013. I'm now into the third year of my PhD. I'm guessing you attended a private college or one out-of-state.

LOL at you thinking affordability of college outside California in any way represents the rest of the U.S. (Hint: it doesn't.)

I doubt you'll find any other state that has essentially free college if your parents earn less than $80K, something CA does with its Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan.

And I quote from UC's own web page on tuition and costs for residents of CA:

UC's Blue and Gold Opportunity Plan will ensure that you will not have to pay UC’s systemwide tuition and fees out of your own pocket if you are a California resident whose total family income is less than $80,000 a year and you qualify for financial aid — and that's just for starters.


Blue and Gold students with sufficient financial need can qualify for even more grant aid to help reduce the cost of attending.


If you are eligible, your systemwide tuition and fees will be fully covered by scholarship or grant money. The plan combines all sources of scholarship and grant awards you receive (federal, state, UC and private) to go toward covering your tuition and fees.



Students with greater financial need can qualify for even more grant support to help defray other educational expenses (like books, housing, transportation, etc.).

http://admission.universityofcalifornia.edu/paying-for-uc/glossary/blue-and-gold/index.html


I don't think you'll find another state in the U.S. that has such all encompassing tuition aid/assistance as California does for its residents.

 

[Painman]

Sweden is an odd mix of regressive-leftist politicians and totally kickass metal bands...

https://youtu.be/fWkcXIx5Bgg

(WTF, It's 2016 and you can't embed a video link here?!? Am I missing something?)

 

[Blanky]

Drive around Scandinavia and then drive around the US, There is a lot more than just healthcare that's different. For better and worse it's just not apples to apples of a comparison.

It is racially far more homogenic than the US.

Let's see how Sweden continues to do as it lets in more people from the middle east, who are like fish out of water there. Bump the thread in 10 years.

 

[Hugo Drax]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-nordic-countries/473385/

But this vision of homogenous, altruistic Nordic lands is mostly a fantasy. The choices Nordic countries have made have little to do with altruism or kinship. Rather, Nordic people have made their decisions out of self-interest. Nordic nations offer their citizens—all of their citizens, but especially the middle class—high-quality services that save people a lot of money, time, and trouble. This is what Americans fail to understand: My taxes in Finland were used to pay for top-notch services for me.

I think it is pretty spot on. It's not we are a bunch of socialist hippies, but just as much as we want to secure everybody we foremost want to secure ourselves and our family.

This is why we need to pull out of being the worlds police on our dime and global welfare provider. My taxes pay for their services as well. If we pull out from the world and let everyone else on the other side of the globe deal with their own security maybe we can use some of the savings on our own people.

 

[biostud]

lol @ 3-fold higher consumption taxes being minor

lol @ America having unaffordable college

I'd like to know what the difference is between any of these "Nordic" systems, and, say, the Spain or France. Everyone knows that Finland has excellent schools and excellent standardized exam scores. So does South Korea. I'd imagine that Spain and France have social programs with more in common with Scandinavia than they do with South Korea, yet Spain and France will consistently rank lower. Simply saying that Finland does it "smart" is about as meaningful as Trump saying he's going to do it "great".

EDIT: Also, from what I'm finding, Sweden's international test scores have been gradually falling over the last decade or so. I'm not sure if there are studies showing a discrepancy between Swedish natives vs immigrants, but I'd imagine that heterogeneity is at least partially responsible for that decline.

The Swedes have f*cked up their education system, and the Danes are following their lead...

 

[biostud]

"But this vision of homogenous, altruistic Nordic lands is mostly a fantasy"

Nordic lands have tens of millions of illegal invaders in them (along with their spawn) sucking up lower wage work and a large poorer class that has no problem generation over generation sucking up social services with little intention of really getting off them? Who knew...?

Nope, but the systems are only for those with a legal right to stay. Obviously US have a problem with immigration just as Europe has, but securing American citizens a well functioning public sector shouldn't be put aside, just because you have an immigration problem.

 

[chucky2]

Nope, but the systems are only for those with a legal right to stay. Obviously US have a problem with immigration just as Europe has, but securing American citizens a well functioning public sector shouldn't be put aside, just because you have an immigration problem.

We don't have an immigration problem, we have an invasion problem. We also have a large persistent poor class problem. On top of that, we're so PC in this country that telling illegal kids/legal kids that never would have been here if not for their illegal parent(s) they need to go elsewhere is looked at as racist/xenophobic.

So when you try and make plans, and fund those plans, in the face of these two problems, those plans can't hit those lofty bennies that all these non-melting pot countries croon about. They'd cost a never ending arm and leg, and, just invite more invaders and more laziness from our poor citizens.

 

[Drako]

LOL at you thinking affordability of college outside California in any way represents the rest of the U.S. (Hint: it doesn't.)

There are plenty of other states that offer similar to what California has for in state residents, without the inflated housing prices as well.

I have a nephew in Oklahoma who has his tuition covered 100%, and is renting a room for $300/month. Try finding that in California

 

[MagickMan]

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-nordic-countries/473385/

But this vision of homogenous, altruistic Nordic lands is mostly a fantasy. The choices Nordic countries have made have little to do with altruism or kinship. Rather, Nordic people have made their decisions out of self-interest. Nordic nations offer their citizens—all of their citizens, but especially the middle class—high-quality services that save people a lot of money, time, and trouble. This is what Americans fail to understand: My taxes in Finland were used to pay for top-notch services for me.

I think it is pretty spot on. It's not we are a bunch of socialist hippies, but just as much as we want to secure everybody we foremost want to secure ourselves and our family.

Let's say a person makes €500k /year, are those "services" worth the €280k that person pays in income tax? Hell no. Let's be more realistic, say they're a successful attorney and they earn €250k. They'd still be paying €110k, which is still far from a bargain. In fact, it isn't a good value proposition until you get down to €60k, where they're "only" paying €23k, but that's only because the people in the income brackets above them are getting hammered with an unfair rate.

 

[glenn1]

Let's say a person makes €500k /year, are those "services" worth the €280k that person pays in income tax? Hell no. Let's be more realistic, say they're a successful attorney and they earn €250k. They'd still be paying €110k, which is still far from a bargain. In fact, it isn't a good value proposition until you get down to €60k, where they're "only" paying €23k, but that's only because the people in the income brackets above them are getting hammered with an unfair rate.

Yes, I alluded to this in an earlier post. Wanting a nordic style social welfare system isn't an economically logical choice for many people. In strictly ROI terms a high tax/high services cannot possibly be a positive or even break-even proposition for most folks; at best you could look at the taxes paid as "prepaying" for potential costs like maternity leave and whatnot but even then you're basically paying an unnecessary risk premium to government taxes to protect yourself (and others who can't afford the costs) from a potential cost that may never arrive. This is where personally owned contingency funds on the "Health Savings Account" model would be a huge improvement; you don't pay for freeloaders, the funds are used exclusively on your actual needs, and if a need never arises the money stays with you rather than going into government coffers.

 

[Jeff7]

My taxes in America were used to pay for a military as big as the next ten countries combined.

What you Finland people don't understand about America is that we might slowly be turning to shit domestically, but that mainland is better protected from outside forces than any country in the world*.

*Except when we train and arm terrorists and said terrorists use said American training and weapons against us.

Except our budget and attitude is more like a survivalist in an armored cabin who owns 53 surveillance cameras, 250 guns, enough ammunition to wipe out a mid-sized town, is constantly disappointed that he doesn't have any heavily-armed neighbors to fend off, and thinks that it's still quite reasonable to spend 17% of annual income on maintaining and upgrading these defenses, while carrying enormous debt.
($663B/year on military and veteran care versus $3.8T in revenue, if I'm reading all this correctly: Numbers from here.)

You'd have more support for government services if everyone was able to use them. As it is, only poor/lazy/unemployed/illegals get to use most entitlement programs, which creates resentment on the part of the people who have to actually work for a living.

That and the fact that the American government is full of paid off assholes who are only looking out for their corporate sponsors.

Those darn poor people again. There's also billionaires or companies worth enough to buy your own legislation, regulators, and legislators; then you can get enormous kickbacks and tax breaks. "I want a stadium upgrade for my extremely profitable sports team, and I can easily afford to pay for it myself using said profits. But I don't want to pay a cent for it. Gimme money."

Even if you're leeching off the system, if you're not wealthy, you're likely not powerful either. One person who controls substantial wealth and power can do a lot of damage. (Brb, I have to go repackage some really risky debt so that it looks better than it really is, then pawn it off on someone else. Because that's exactly the sort of damage that a part-time cashier at Walmart is capable of causing to a major 1st-world economy....)

 

[bshole]

So you think it would be a good deal for those in the U.S. making median income to pay Finish income tax rates? That means a total tax wedge 50% higher; mostly due to income taxes (29.8% for an average yearly income of 37,400 €) and 24% VAT.

That sounds bad until you consider the Number 1 reason for bankruptcy in America ..... MEDICAL EXPENSES. For the bottom 95% of Americans, we are all at risk of a medical illness wiping out absolutely everything we own. There is no safety net at all. Very scary shit.

 

[swamplizard]

That sounds bad until you consider the Number 1 reason for bankruptcy in America ..... MEDICAL EXPENSES. For the bottom 95% of Americans, we are all at risk of a medical illness wiping out absolutely everything we own. There is no safety net at all. Very scary shit.

Agreed. Vote for Bernie and make your vote count.

 

[dainthomas]

in % GDP? over what time frame?

Yes. And let's say, ten years. Not factoring interest paid on the debt, that would be around 30k per capita over that time to pay down 9 trillion.

 

[ElFenix]

Yes. And let's say, ten years. Not factoring interest paid on the debt, that would be around 30k per capita over that time to pay down 9 trillion.

For reference, WW2 debt took about 20 years to pay off about half.

 

[dainthomas]

This is why we need to pull out of being the worlds police on our dime and global welfare provider. My taxes pay for their services as well. If we pull out from the world and let everyone else on the other side of the globe deal with their own security maybe we can use some of the savings on our own people.

The argument could be made that having one (or two) big kids on the block with by far the biggest stick prevents all the little kids' squabbles from breaking out into a huge brawl (aka WWIII).

Seems to have worked for seventy plus years.

 

[dainthomas]

For reference, WW2 debt took about 20 years to pay off about half.

For the record, I wasn't saying we should. Just that the per capita money our government is spending is closer to what Finland's is spending than the relative tax burdens would indicate.