What about a referendum to the Iraqi people?

[alchemize]

First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

 

[judasmachine]

besides the fact that would destroy america's true intentions, it still would never happen due to the fact that the election would be tampered with by every faction in the country.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: alchemize
First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

Why should we care what the Iraqis think? I can assure you that most Americans like the Iraqis about as much as most Iraqis like Americans which is not very much. We should stay as long as it takes to fix our screw up aka the Dub's ill advised and ill conceived Excellent Adventure In Iraq. That is to place a Government in power that would not be antagonistic towards the US (Forget a Freedom Loving Democratic Government, that is a pipe dream)

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize
First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

Why should we care what the Iraqis think? I can assure you that most Americans like the Iraqis about as much as most Iraqis like Americans which is not very much. We should stay as long as it takes to fix our screw up aka the Dub's ill advised and ill conceived Excellent Adventure In Iraq. That is to place a Government in power that would not be antagonistic towards the US (Forget a Freedom Loving Democratic Government, that is a pipe dream)

So you'd just assume leave them to rot/civil war? I'm not really against that either, but I'd rather we finish the job.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

The fact that we're even having this conversation says a lot about the extent and quality of the Pentagon's strategy and planning for postwar Iraq.

It seems to me we have invested too much into this boondoggle to let the Iraqis just screw it all up if we still have the chance to salvage something positive. The latter point is obviously subject to some controversy, however.

 

[alchemize]

Originally posted by: DonVito
The fact that we're even having this conversation says a lot about the extent and quality of the Pentagon's strategy and planning for postwar Iraq.

It seems to me we have invested too much into this boondoggle to let the Iraqis just screw it all up if we still have the chance to salvage something positive. The latter point is obviously subject to some controversy, however.

I think it says more about the iraqi people, personally.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize
First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

Why should we care what the Iraqis think? I can assure you that most Americans like the Iraqis about as much as most Iraqis like Americans which is not very much. We should stay as long as it takes to fix our screw up aka the Dub's ill advised and ill conceived Excellent Adventure In Iraq. That is to place a Government in power that would not be antagonistic towards the US (Forget a Freedom Loving Democratic Government, that is a pipe dream)

So you'd just assume leave them to rot/civil war? I'm not really against that either, but I'd rather we finish the job.

The assumption is that the "job" can be finished.
Look at it this way, we are the Israel occupiers, and those who are trying to destabilize the US sanctioned govt. When both sides were antagonistic towards each other, when was the "job" done? What is the job anyway?

The US should have expected peace in the area as much as the Israelis and Palestinians should have. What is happening was so easily foreseen (and it was by many in the intel community before they were silenced) that it's pathetic.

There is no solution that works. We can't leave because we "bought" the country when we invaded it, and we can't stay because we are the willing catalist for what we see, not that it would get any better for a very long time after we go. Well, no solution this admin. would accept.

 

[Don Vito Corleone]

Originally posted by: alchemize

I think it says more about the iraqi people, personally.

In all fairness, however, this is the country our leadership decided to invade, and whose leader they decided to depose. According to Bob Woodward, who was in the White House at the time, they were looking to invade Iraq as soon as 9/12/01. They had plenty of time to develop a strategy for postwar Iraq, but apparently they never got around to it.

 

[imported_Pedro69]

W(e) don't need need no st*pid exit strategy. W(e) will be greeted with flowers. It will be a cakewalk..

..and the sad part is: They still have no strategy, just lame rhetoric aka "If we leave now Iraq/USA will be weakend".

 

[chcarnage]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: DonVito
The fact that we're even having this conversation says a lot about the extent and quality of the Pentagon's strategy and planning for postwar Iraq.

It seems to me we have invested too much into this boondoggle to let the Iraqis just screw it all up if we still have the chance to salvage something positive. The latter point is obviously subject to some controversy, however.

I think it says more about the iraqi people, personally.

The number of Iraqi civilians dying by bomb attacks and gun fights is higher than the number of Iraqis fighting against the civil order and the occupators.

 

[piasabird]

So if they vote in favor of the US Staying, then what?

I think you might be surprised by the outcome.

 

[TastesLikeChicken]

Originally posted by: chcarnage

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: DonVito
The fact that we're even having this conversation says a lot about the extent and quality of the Pentagon's strategy and planning for postwar Iraq.

It seems to me we have invested too much into this boondoggle to let the Iraqis just screw it all up if we still have the chance to salvage something positive. The latter point is obviously subject to some controversy, however.

I think it says more about the iraqi people, personally.

The number of Iraqi civilians dying by bomb attacks and gun fights is higher than the number of Iraqis fighting against the civil order and the occupators.

Proof?

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: judasmachine
besides the fact that would destroy america's true intentions, it still would never happen due to the fact that the election would be tampered with by every faction in the country.

Why would they even need to tamper? I bet that in an honest vote, the option for the U.S. leaving immediately would win in a landslide. Not a Dubya style man-date either, I'm thinking 75-80% or more.

 

[EatSpam]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize
First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

Why should we care what the Iraqis think? I can assure you that most Americans like the Iraqis about as much as most Iraqis like Americans which is not very much. We should stay as long as it takes to fix our screw up aka the Dub's ill advised and ill conceived Excellent Adventure In Iraq. That is to place a Government in power that would not be antagonistic towards the US (Forget a Freedom Loving Democratic Government, that is a pipe dream)

So you'd just assume leave them to rot/civil war? I'm not really against that either, but I'd rather we finish the job.

I don't think it is possible to finish the job without staying there permanently and doubling or tripling the number of troops. The only thing that kept Iraq together pre-invasion was Saddam Hussein's brutality. We're taking the place of him now. Once we leave, civil war. I fell it is inevitable, so I think its time to cut our loses and leave now. Staying will only waste money and kill more American soldiers.

 

[1EZduzit]

We will have to stay there.....until they run out of oil.

Perhaps it's time for a 51st state??

 

[cwjerome]

I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

Are you serious?? .

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

51st state sounds good to me. Let the Iraqis vote on that. Can you say Senator Hussein?

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

51st state sounds good to me. Let the Iraqis vote on that. Can you say Senator Hussein?

I think Emperor Bush has a nicer ring to it

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: alchemize

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: alchemize
First referendum - do you want American troops to stay to continue to setup the government. Yes/No.

Second, if yes, determines time.

If they vote 51% no, leave them to their own devices?

Why should we care what the Iraqis think? I can assure you that most Americans like the Iraqis about as much as most Iraqis like Americans which is not very much. We should stay as long as it takes to fix our screw up aka the Dub's ill advised and ill conceived Excellent Adventure In Iraq. That is to place a Government in power that would not be antagonistic towards the US (Forget a Freedom Loving Democratic Government, that is a pipe dream)

So you'd just assume leave them to rot/civil war? I'm not really against that either, but I'd rather we finish the job.

I don't see that anywhere in his response.

 

[0roo0roo]

mob rule..nah

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

That's not an exit strategy, it is at best vague outlines for a roadmap. The missing element is how we make sure we acheive those things. How do we make sure the election process works? How do we make sure enough forces are trained? Etc, etc. There are serious concerns about those issues (especially the training of Iraqi forces), and they aren't addressed by that "exit strategy".

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

That's not an exit strategy, it is at best vague outlines for a roadmap. The missing element is how we make sure we acheive those things. How do we make sure the election process works? How do we make sure enough forces are trained? Etc, etc. There are serious concerns about those issues (especially the training of Iraqi forces), and they aren't addressed by that "exit strategy".

Hehe, no kidding.

 

[magomago]

Originally posted by: piasabird
So if they vote in favor of the US Staying, then what?

I think you might be surprised by the outcome.

I think the problem is you assume that their saying "Stay US" means "Stay with carte blanche"~ I want troops to stay right now (yes, an opponent of the Iraq War and current actions in Iraq...but mainly b/c there is no choice due to the way Bush Orchestrated it) but not in the way they are doing it right now.

So if I had to vote, I would choose "Stay" but don't think that means "Oh I love you America and stay here forever and do whatever you please"

I wouldn't be suprised if they wanted the US to stay, but I wouldn't be suprised if they would not give us free reign like we have now

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: cwjerome
I'm a little confused by some people's assertion that there's been no exit strategy. Besides being a talking point of the Left, it's a lie. The exit strategy has been the same since day 1: We will reduce forces accordingly as the Iraqis gain power and control over themselves... basically. This would be done mostly after documents have been ratified, elections have been conducted, and enough forces have been adequately trained.

What's so hard to understand about that?

That's not an exit strategy, it is at best vague outlines for a roadmap. The missing element is how we make sure we acheive those things. How do we make sure the election process works? How do we make sure enough forces are trained? Etc, etc. There are serious concerns about those issues (especially the training of Iraqi forces), and they aren't addressed by that "exit strategy".

I disagree... I think it's a strategy. What you want are various concretes and specifics, which I believe, have to be worked out on a constantly changing contextual basis. This is not a math formula. It's a very complicated plan with constantly changing variables and scenarios. We have to be flexible and think on our feet as circumstances dictate to reach the overall goals I have outlined.

It is foolish to try and act like we can micromanage some ultra-comprehensive plan beforehand that deals with every possible situation that can pop up. What you ask for is something policy planners know to be a recipe for failure. You have goals and basic plans to get there, but anything more will bring nothing but disappointment because you can't stick to some overly managed plan in reality.

I'm sure you'll miss the point and assume this is an attempt to make excuses, but whatever... you've already made up your mind. Maybe you could give me an example of what an "exit strategy" might look like that's to your liking. That way I'd have a better idea of what exactly you are advocating.