What 3dfx needs to do - Rant#1

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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Here's my view:

What 3dfx needs to do:

1) Reclaim their speed crown
2) Execute
3) Catch up, feature-wise
4) Get a new PR team

Speed:

1) Release drastically improved OGL drivers SOON for the 5500 - the 5500 SHOULD trounce the MX and DDr in MDK2 and Q3. It doesn't. This has nothing to do with T&L, and everything to do with nvidia's vast OGL driver superiority.

2) Release a higher-clocked 6000 IMMEDIATELY AFTER releasing the OGL drivers - this will allow the 6000 to DEFINITIVELY outdo the GTS-U. It can't just squeek by, it MUST whup it pretty good, and it must whup the GTS-U on it's own territory - Quake3. Say what you want about it as a game, or the validity of benchmarking, etc, but the 6000 MUST BEAT THE GTS-U AT Q3 AT ALL RESOLUTIONS/COLOR DEPTHS/FSAA SETTINGS. Period.

3) Rampage MUST be faster than the NV20. If you want to beat the champ, you can't win by decision, you MUST knock it out!!! Fully optimized DX8, OGL code is a necessity, as is a nice die-shrink.

Execute:

1) Release new OGL drivers FAST - I can't emphasize this enough. It's pitiful to see a TNT2 Ultra hanging with a 5500 in 3d Studio Max. Is this a game? No, but it tells you about the sad state of affairs that is the OGL ICD.

2) Release the 6000 NO LATER THAN 2 weeks after the GTS-U hits the streets. It had better be < 166 MHz too.

3) Release Rampage EARLY NEXT YEAR, again within striking distance of the NV20's release. nVidia CANNOT be allowed to gain a foothold in the high-end market next year, plain and simple.

Catch-up:

1) The 6000 needs to have something faster than PCI66, or it will be &quot;AGP limited&quot; - I suspect this is the primary issue, and why the 6k is late. It has nothing to do with AGP texturing, which is woefully inadequate, it has to do with basic data transfers needing to be a lot faster than what PCI66 can provide. That is the purpose of the Intel bridge chip on there - so the system &quot;sees&quot; only one graphics processor, and can then go for a higher AGP speed - incidentally, if the 6k has AGPx4 support, this may FINALLY be the grpahics adapter that can give 4x an advantage

2) Rampage MUST MUST MUST MUST have AGPx8, Dot3, EMBM, high performance T&amp;L, DX8 compliancy. There will be no excuse.

3) This generation is, without a doubt, the LAST that 3dfx will be able to &quot;get away&quot; without having the &quot;latest&quot; features. The fillrate of cards today are such that they can handle &quot;advanced features&quot;. The TNT1 had 32-bit color, but was woefully inadequate in fillrate to provide it @ worthwhile speeds. The SDR GeForce had T&amp;L, but no games supported it. Those days are over. 3dfx must release a FEATURE-PACKED card in Rampage. It simply CANNOT lag behind in features.

4) They MUST pay attention to the future - don't tell us what &quot;we need as gamers&quot;. Make it happen. If for no reason other than to avoid getting their a$$es handed to them in the mainstream press.

PR :

1) For the love of God, WHERE ARE THE T-BUFFER DEMOS? Show us how cool this new stuff is. Show me why I want it in my card. Show developers why they should implement this into their games. We all know that FSAA is pretty cool, and will be a mainstay once fillrate and throughput is available, but WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER STUFF????

2) Don't ever, ever, ever tell us what we, as gamers, &quot;need&quot;. We'll tell you what we WANT, and you WILL respond.

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After using the 5500 and the GTS, I realized that there isn't all that much of a discernable difference while playing games. Guess what? Reviewers in magazines and reviewers on websites and OEMs don't give a damn about how well games play. They want a feature list, and they want benchmark scores. Give them what they want, and you'll regain your place atop the 3d graphics world.
 

Dark4ng3l

Diamond Member
Sep 17, 2000
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I think their problem is that in the past they made single chip cards with the option to go multi chip(voodoo 2) the single chip card was fast enuf. Now going multi chip means they optimise chips less speed wise(and cant catch up because they cant put more chips on board anymore)plus they wate 1/2 the ram(2 chips = 64 megabytes 32 for each chip = 32 meg vid card) The scalable t&amp;l unit idea seems to be great to me nv20 wil probably have horrible yield because of transistor count. 3dfx wil make 2 chips and have bter yield + the possibility to go 4 chip(2 rampage + 2 sage) and get awesome t&amp;l performance. Sage wil be programable t&amp;l engine so developers wil like it alot more than nv20 and curent gefore t&amp;l engines.
 

Rigoletto

Banned
Aug 6, 2000
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I don't think 3dfx were as stupid as they are made out to be. They went for fill rate over features with the Voodoo3, and I think they were justified. After all, 32 bit colour was not, maybe still isn't, an issue, and few games did Hardware bump mapping. I am happy with my Voodoo3 not that I know much better...
Unfortunately, they can't even compete nowadays on fill rate, so they are a bit crap!
 

fodd3r

Member
Sep 15, 2000
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3dfx would have been fine it the put two textures per pipeline.

as to 3dfx's future plans, well it'll all depend on whether they can get their collective heads out of their respective asses.
 

KarsinTheHutt

Golden Member
Jun 28, 2000
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Sigh... 3dfx has seemingly stumbled into an Intel-esq downturn. I hope they recover - more competition would be great.
 

jpprod

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
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I'd add one more &quot;must&quot; to your to-do list for 3dfx: they should release a value-segment card with performance and feature set at least equal to GeForce2 MX. Such a solution would certainly win them OEM precense and bring them the financial resources keeping up with the likes of Nvidia in R&amp;D requires. Today many gamers - including myself if I was looking for a new card - also rather go for high-performance <=$150 value cards than shell ~$250 for a high-end gaming one.
 

RoboTECH

Platinum Member
Jun 16, 2000
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jpprod - ah yes, the voice of reason once again

OEM wins aren't something 3dfx is known for. I believe Micron are the only big name OEM peeps on the planet offering a 5500 as part of a system.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
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I would say the first thing is to survive.

3dfx has truly screwed themselves by not supporting AGP texturing, and it has nothing at all to do with performance or gaming. They have the worst return on R&amp;D dollars spent because of this, their products come and go in the gamers market and are gone, not to be heard from again. nVidia, ATi and even S3 have parts long past what we would consider useable shipping in large quantities(RagePro, 128ZX etc) and continuing to turn a profit many years after the last R&amp;D dollar has been spent on them.

3dfx has nothing out now that can hope to duplicate that, the V3 is a non option, while the TNT2 has already been moved into an integrated solution with the MX on the way and for ATi they have had the Rage128 series of chips integrated for quite some time. The market is moving to lower priced solutions for OEMs, we are the exception, certainly not the rule, on even paying $100 for a graphics board, let alone $200-$300(or more) where 3dfx seems to focus.

I have it at 50/50 if 3dfx survives another year, killer product or not. They have proven that they can hold the best selling retail board for an entire year(well over) and not come close to making a singe cent in profit, having the best performing retail board wouldn't be anything new and if histroy is an indicator it won't be close to enough to save them.

The problem is that they need money now, and they have yet to release a product that is capable of becoming a viable low end(low end, OEMs think of the GF2MX as a higher end part) solution, and won't until the Rampage at least, which still puts them at nearly a year out for penetrating into the mainstream profit bringing segment without killing their own market(unless they have Fear ready to go in ~six months).

Another thing they need to address is the profitability of their products, they need single chip solutions, multi-chip may sound great for the bleeding edge crowd and high end gamers, but it costs too much to produce(remember, 3dfx needs to start making some real money and then sustain it). The gamers market is very small, although it is attractive it doesn't offer the kind of return on investment to keep up with the R&amp;D power of ATi and nVidia who have wisely focused on the OEM market. Boards like the GF2U are simply &quot;halo&quot; offerings from nVidia, much as the Vette is to Chevy or the Viper to Dodge, they can lose money on them and they are still worth it because they have a halo effect on the product line. 3dfx does need this, but it doesn't do much for their far greater problems, their ability to survive in the marketplace with their business model.

nVidia and ATi will throw every bell and whistle at us to score OEM wins with a very distant second thought being the gamers crowd. 3dfx is focusing on the very small market with hopes of attracting the larger, but in the high tech arena R&amp;D is king, and R&amp;D costs money. nVidia has recently demonstrated this with the high end(pro) market. Intergraph wisely let 3DLabs acquire their Wildcat series of boards as they couldn't hope to compete with each other and against the onslaught of nVidia who has its' R&amp;D costs covered by years of large scale OEM contracts. ATi could be the next in this field, which would likely be the beginning of the end for all but the big two.

Nearly any given high end technology becomes commonplace in the video card market, nV and ATi realize this and can use us, gamers, as a test bed for their technology and to help cover initial R&amp;D along with making some nice cash and winning the confidence of enthusiasts. 3dfx OTOH, seems to be completely focused on now, what will people be using this particular week with blinders on to the future. Feature support shouldn't be a bonus option in the gamers market, and they are the very core of the demands from the OEM space.

If they could keep the gamers market then they could survive, but we all know that they are losing ground very quickly to nVidia and now even ATi, and for good reason. This next year they face a far more difficult challenge, DX8. DX8 may say MS, and MS certainly developed it, but it will be the first &quot;open&quot; gaming API designed for a particular piece of hardware, the NV2X series of chips. MS is rolling at least $1billion into the X-Box, they are going to make sure that their dev kits are a perfect match for their hardware. This is where 3dfx could end, what will MS do to scratch nV's back with DX8? May not be &quot;fair&quot; or &quot;right&quot;, but 3dfx is in reality an annoying thorn to nV, not a serious competitor(that is ATi and only ATi) and an insignificant factor to MS who hurt them directly with Glide(anyone think MS doesn't hold a grudge?).

Just my take.
 

jpprod

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
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Whoa, Ben, I've seen tons of editorials with less though put into them than is in that post of yours, great job :)

But personally I'll have to somewhat disagree with the high-end (gaming) product line making much of an impact on what brand video cards largest OEMs choose to put on their systems, at least from an historical point of view. ATi hasn't had a proper high-end solution until recently with the Radeon, but they're just now being slowly taken over by Nvidia as the largest OEM graphics supplier. Also 3dfx has had a viable and fast OEM solution in the past that didn't do very well - Voodoo Banshee - even if they had the number one high-end gaming solution out at the time, Voodoo2 SLI. IMO it would seem that the two most important things in a OEM-attactive solution are very low price and an impressive checklist of features (i.e. marketability) - both of which hugely successful ATi OEM product lines (Rage Pro, Rage 128...) have delivered.

I've heard rumours that 3dfx plans to introduce a chip called VSA-200, which'll essentially be a .18 micron version of VSA-100 with minor modifications, possibly including DDR SDRAM support. If this chip let's say boosts performance of Voodoo line two-fold (introducing dual-texturing pipelines for example), it could be an attractive single-chip OEM solution, especially if paired with 64bit DDR SDRAM interface.
 

Killrose

Diamond Member
Oct 26, 1999
6,230
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And what about the Nvida lawsuit against 3dfx? This could be a death blow to 3dfx as well. It does'nt matter if Nvida is right or wrong in there claims, they have more monetary resources than 3dfx and could drain them with this alone. Remember Creative vs. Aureal?
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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This could be a death blow to 3dfx as well.

I think you might be right there Killrose. nVidia's current lawsuit has a double edged blade: they get back at 3dfx for the previous lawsuit and they drain 3dfx's revenue coffers. This lawsuit may bleed 3dfx dry if they aren't careful.
 

fodd3r

Member
Sep 15, 2000
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i don't think the suit will kill them unless they lose. simply because bitboys got another infusion recently, who says 3dfx can't.

jpprod

a beefed up vsa 100 on a 64bit bus would be lame. you do realize video card bus usually come in the 128bit style. the normal 128 bit bus would be nice paired up with ddr memory.
 

Goi

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
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fodd3r, jpprod was talking about an OEM solution, where performance isn't really that crucial. A 64-bit memory interface requires about half the number of pins as a 128-bit memory interface, which in turn leads to a lower manufacturing cost. This is exactly what the G450 is doing. Its no performance king, but it already has a few OEM wins from what I've read.

Of course, I could be wrong and jpprod could be talking about using 64-bit DDR memory chips as opposed to the normal 32bit memory chips that are used.
 

jpprod

Platinum Member
Nov 18, 1999
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What I meant by 64bit DDR SDRAM interface was just as in G450: half the number of pins while maintaining the same bandwidth as 128bit SDRAM at the same clock frequency. While it would gain nothing compared to SDRAM in performance - on the contrary actually, there might be latency issues - it would cut board manufacturing costs.
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I wonder if 3dfx will put out a good OEM product in time.
They're pretty short on cash from what I've heard, and it takes some time to get acceptance from the major OEM's, just look at nVidia, they had some pretty decent OEM products long before they became any significant threat to ATI.
OEM's dont just want a product with good features/price, they wanna know that the company they're buying from is reliable as well, something that it takes some time to prove yourself as being.
 

BFG10K

Lifer
Aug 14, 2000
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Related to the OEM discussion, I have noticed a lot of new computers are now coming with the GF2 MX instead of the old TNT2 M64.