Western European, Scandinavian, Candian P&N readers -- Health Care Question

[WhipperSnapper]

This thread is for P&N readers who live in Canada, Western Europe, and Scandinavia. Do you like your health care system?

In another thread it was alleged that the European countries:

1. contribute almost nothing to medical research and advancement
2. cannot pay for their health care system
3. has inferior health care and patient satisfaction than in the United States
4. had almost none of the world's best doctors.

I'd like to hear what those of you who actually live in those nations (not visit occasionally) think.

Here in the U.S., the advocates of our current part free market, part socialist system have been arguing that the quality of health care in Europe is inferior to the quality of health care that Americans receive. Is that claim true or bullshit?

 

[CanOWorms]

Healthcare in many of those countries is observed within a nationalistic and cultural realm. For example, many Canadians view their healthcare system as a part of their culture, differentiating them from the United States. Criticizing it would be destroying themselves. Thus, you won't be getting many objective answers.

 

[ShawnD1]

I live in Canada and I think the medical system is pretty good.

good parts
I had to be rushed to the hospital twice in the past couple of years. Total cost was $700 for the ambulance rides because I don't have insurance. Medical care was good both times.

My mom has spent a lot of time in the hospital over the past couple of decades. She had several surgeries for intestinal problems as well as foot surgery for some bone growth thing. She hasn't paid anything for any of this. She's doing quite well these days.

My best friend had a motorcycle accident that shattered one of his arms and had a normal break in the other arm. One arm was put in a cast as usual while the other had major surgery to be put back together. He has a metal plate and pins in his arm, and his arm is no longer straight. The entire thing was free.

My cousin had a similar incident with broken arms and pins. Entire thing was free.

bad parts
Dental care is not covered by UHC. Even with insurance, my braces were about $2500. Luckily my parents have above average incomes and could afford to pay for this luxury. Not everyone can pay for this kind of thing, so some people still have really fucked up teeth. My friend with the pins in his arm has a father who can't stop wasting money on stupid shit, so my friend never got braces as a kid. His teeth are horrible and he has migraine headaches because of it. He's currently saving his money so he can afford oral surgery.

Procedures that are not seen as important have significant wait times. While heart surgery or intestine surgery can be booked and finished within 2 days, getting surgery to remove a bone growth from your foot takes months. Things like hip and knee replacements are seen as optional, so you wait.

Fucking old people abuse this. One of my friends is a nurse and she deals with these shit bags all the time. My own grandma was such a piece of shit that she called 911 several times because "I like the hospital more than the retirement home". Well thanks for wasting our resources, grandma. I'm sure people who actually need an ambulance right now appreciate your selfishness.


what I would fix
Dental care should be covered by UHC. Seriously, you can't possibly understand how important dental care is until you have a problem. My parents paid a shit load of money for oral surgery to have my wisdom teeth taken out. People who don't have that kind of money just need to deal with impacted molars. Have fun trying to be a productive member of society when you can't sleep because you have migraine headaches.

 

[RbSX]

Healthcare in many of those countries is observed within a nationalistic and cultural realm. For example, many Canadians view their healthcare system as a part of their culture, differentiating them from the United States. Criticizing it would be destroying themselves. Thus, you won't be getting many objective answers.

Oh please.

I'm Canadian and I criticize our health care all the time.

I think a part public part private system is the way to go, the problem is ensuring that people won't flee the public system for the more lucrative private market.

In some ways, private health care already exists here, no one wants to talk about it though, because the 'left wing everyone is equally mediocre pc group' doesn't want to admit it.

 

[little elvis]

As a Canadian, I do like our health care system, however, to claim that it's without faults would be a lie.

Wait times for elective surgeries can be excessive, experimental treatments may have to paid for it out of pocket, if the treatment is not approved by Health Canada. Access to MRIs and other diagnostic procedures, if deemed not critical, can takes months. Emergency room wait times are also an issue. Costs of running the system are always increasing, it would be naive to believe that can continue indefinitely, some hard decisions will have to be made, which most people will not be happy with.

My own personal experience with our health care system has been nothing but positive. The longest time I have needed to wait for a non-critical MRI was 2 weeks.

When I tore my ACL, I was in to see an orthopaedic surgeon the next day, and started physiotherapy immediately and had surgery within months (my decision to wait)

When I bulged 3 disks in my neck, I had access to the specialists at the Fowler Medical Clinic (one of the best orthopaedic clinics in the country), who monitored my care.

When I had appendicitis, I walked into the emergency room, and was having my appendix removed within hours. My out of pocket cost for the surgery and a weeks stay in the hospital, was essentially zero.

I work for a large American based multinational, who, about 2 years ago, changed retiree health benefits for their entire American workforce (for people who retire after 2009). Decreasing the available coverage and increasing the monthly cost. I'm glad I don't have to deal with that when I retire.

That being said, I don't have a problem with and support the opening of private clinics.

 

[ShawnD1]

Access to MRIs and other diagnostic procedures, if deemed not critical, can takes months. Emergency room wait times are also an issue. Costs of running the system are always increasing, it would be naive to believe that can continue indefinitely, some hard decisions will have to be made, which most people will not be happy with.

What's whack is that the MRI shortage is 100% about money. My mom worked for the worker's compensation board and she saw a lot of documents where people would get an MRI within a few days. Why? Because the WCB was paying for it.

We really need user fees just to stop people from abusing the system. I know Americans bitch about deadbeats showing up the ER and wasting everyone's time. Canada has the same issue with deadbeats going to the doctor (not the ER) for mundane bullshit that doesn't require a doctor. When I was a kid, my neighbors had stitches for everything. I've cut my hand really really bad before and I've never required stitches. Getting stitched isn't something you do because you're bored; it's for wounds with uncontrollable bleeding. Just a simple $20 fee for stitches would have stopped my neighbors from abusing this.

The $350 fee for ambulances, which was apparently raised to $400 in Edmonton, is so people don't abuse the ambulances. The ambulance is not a taxi. It's for people who are dying and need immediate help. Arguably this shouldn't even be covered by insurance. I don't want people to have free ambulances. You shouldn't be calling for an ambulance unless you're pretty damn certain that you need help right now.
I'm not sure how other cities work, but the ambulances in Edmonton get top priority for medical treatment. By law, the ambulance is not allowed to leave the hospital until the person picked up is being treated. They are not allowed to dump people off in the waiting room since it's generally understood that ambulances are for emergencies that need immediate attention.

That being said, I don't have a problem with and support the opening of private clinics.

Alberta has had private clinics for quite a while now and they work really good. What stops it from being a bottomless money pit is that healthcare will only pay X amount. As a doctor, you can charge $300 per visit if you want, but you'll price yourself out of the market because people still need to pay the difference between your price and what the government is willing to pay. Do I go to the free Medicenter and wait an hour and a half or do I pay $200 out of pocket to see you? That's the market force keeping prices down.

 

[little elvis]

The $350 fee for ambulances, which was apparently raised to $400 in Edmonton, is so people don't abuse the ambulances. The ambulance is not a taxi. It's for people who are dying and need immediate help. Arguably this shouldn't even be covered by insurance. I don't want people to have free ambulances. You shouldn't be calling for an ambulance unless you're pretty damn certain that you need help right now.
I'm not sure how other cities work, but the ambulances in Edmonton get top priority for medical treatment. By law, the ambulance is not allowed to leave the hospital until the person picked up is being treated. They are not allowed to dump people off in the waiting room since it's generally understood that ambulances are for emergencies that need immediate attention.

Wow, $400!!, in Calgary, it's about only about $182.

 

[dmcowen674]

I live in Canada and I think the medical system is pretty good.

Procedures that are not seen as important have significant wait times. While heart surgery or intestine surgery can be booked and finished within 2 days, getting surgery to remove a bone growth from your foot takes months. Things like hip and knee replacements are seen as optional, so you wait.

Fucking old people abuse this. One of my friends is a nurse and she deals with these shit bags all the time.

My own grandma was such a piece of shit that she called 911 several times because "I like the hospital more than the retirement home".

Well thanks for wasting our resources, grandma.

I'm sure people who actually need an ambulance right now appreciate your selfishness.

Wow, maybe because you should respect your elders.

You will be old sooner than you know it and you will have a spoiled brat like yourself saying you are a piece of crap.

 

[Moonbeam]

Healthcare in many of those countries is observed within a nationalistic and cultural realm. For example, many Canadians view their healthcare system as a part of their culture, differentiating them from the United States. Criticizing it would be destroying themselves. Thus, you won't be getting many objective answers.

Especially this one.

 

[ShawnD1]

Wow, maybe because you should respect your elders.

You will be old sooner than you know it and you will have a spoiled brat like yourself saying you are a piece of crap.

Shouldn't you be blowing up a hospital or shooting doctors or something else that ruins our medical system? You clearly think it's amusing when people call 911 just because they're bored.

Also, you're not going to turn Canada into Somalia as well.

 

[CanOWorms]

Oh please.

I'm Canadian and I criticize our health care all the time.

I said many, not all.

 

[pcgeek11]

Fucking old people abuse this. One of my friends is a nurse and she deals with these shit bags all the time.

So. You think all old people are shitbags. I believe you will find the " Shitbag " ratio between old and young to be pretty well balanced. ( Young shitbags grow up to be old shitbags )

Some old person is probably thinking that you are a shitbag right now. Probably your Grandmother.

I think I know what your problem is...

 

[ShawnD1]

Some old person is probably thinking that you are a shitbag right now. Probably your Grandmother.

Actually she died a few months ago because other people in her retirement home didn't believe her when she said he had trouble breathing. She pranked 911 so many times that her neighbors thought she was making shit up again.

 

[sandorski]

1) is BS. Final Product is generally dominated by the US, but a lot of R&D is being done outside the US. It's just not the type of stuff you can simply put in a Pill and push to Market.

3) Very satisfied
4) Don't really know, but the point is pretty much Moot

The biggest problem with discussing this issue is that the 2 sides(US vs X) are coming at it from 2 very different Perspectives:

1) Euro/Canadian: From the Perspective of what They Get or can Expect to Get
2) US: From the Perspective of what Bill Gates can get.

I realize that Point 2 is not always the case, but these Discussions always seem to go there quickly and is a Mantra that shields way too many from seriously looking at the problem.

 

[Tristicus]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/pjtvs-hidden-camera-team-exposes-canadas-socialized-health-care/

 

[sandorski]

http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/pjtvs-hidden-camera-team-exposes-canadas-socialized-health-care/

Fail Video.

 

[KMFJD]

I love the simplicity, show up, present your health card, that's it, no out of pocket expenses....

 

[yllus]

How can we explain the American dominance in biomedical research and development? (PDF)

MONEY AVAILABILITY AND DISTRIBUTION

Arguably, this is the single most important factor explaining the dominant role of the USA in innovative research. The total R&D expenditure in the EU was 1.99 per cent of GDP in 2002, whereas in Japan it was 2.98 per cent (2000) and in the USA 2.80 per cent. In 2000, the gap between US and EU investment in R&D reached E124bn.

Assuming a conservative 10 per cent allocation to biomedical research, E12.4bn less was invested in Europe compared with the USA in 2000. The average cost of a drug developed by the pharmaceutical industry is estimated to be around US$800m.

Source: Eurostat - Statistics on Science and Technology in Europe

The discussion paper linked above goes into a few more reasons why the U.S. generally dominates in medical research, but as always it's really about the money.

 

[Moonbeam]

I said many, not all.

That's good, because the opinions I like will be the ones I say are objective.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Fucking old people abuse this. One of my friends is a nurse and she deals with these shit bags all the time. My own grandma was such a piece of shit that she called 911 several times because "I like the hospital more than the retirement home". Well thanks for wasting our resources, grandma. I'm sure people who actually need an ambulance right now appreciate your selfishness.

OMG! I have never, in my entire life, heard anyone say that about their grandma!

 

[CycloWizard]

Thanks for starting this thread. I think it's something our government (and, therefore, the people) need to consider before jumping in headfirst. My claims in the other thread were based on my recent experiences, as well as conversations with healthcare providers and recipients. Obviously that is a small sample of the whole, but these people were also pretty well in touch with the pulse of the systems in their respective places due to the nature of their positions. I don't expect you'll find too many citizens of these nations saying that they are dissatisfied with their treatment, but I don't think you'll find too many of these systems still in existence in 20 years, either.

 

[Daedalus685]

1) contribute almost nothing to medical research and advancement


This is blatantly untrue. One of the most advanced MS research programs in NA is in London, and affiliated with Western. You would be hard pressed to find a university that did not have an intimate relationship with a local hospital. I work at a nuclear lab, we produce medical isotopes.. there is a lot of research done on this sort of thing. Mind you, pharmaceuticals are a different beast... you can't patent chemicals up here like you can in the US, worth MUCH more cash to develop those kinds of things south of the border. Not that they can't make a killing in Canada... just that they make a killing and a half in the US. I mean if a dollar in canada turns into 2 after you sell a new drug, but in the states the same dollar becomes 10 where are you going to go?


2) cannot pay for their health care system


All of our hospitals must run a balanced budget, just how it has to work and is law. I pay reasonable tax rates (on the order of 1/3 of my income) to pay for this. If any governemtn tried to cut heath care before things such as defence, roads, etc. there would be protests until they quit. Though sometimes belts are tightened, usually out patient care is the first to get cut back. For instance physiotherapy is always moving around, one hospital or another not funding it so patients are moved to another near by facility.



3) has inferior health care and patient satisfaction than in the United States


Total BS. Wait times are low, and based on triage. If I wanted to have surgery to remove a mole when someone comes in with a ruptured appendix I will wait.. But anyone who needs treatment does not wait. When my appendix burst I was in a hospital room almost immediately after entering the ER. My surgery was done that evening using the most advanced techniques available, I have a 1cm scar today. The only limitation is a shortage of doctors where I live (very few want to practise in the middle of nowhere... par for the course) So for day to day medical stuff I have to go to a clinic, which depending on the time of day could mean an hour wait time.


4) had almost none of the world's best doctors.


Also BS. We have many distinguished surgeons working and teaching at various hospitals. The mental health team at McMaster is world renowned, so is the neurosurgeon group at Western. There are certainly some very good doctors that move to the states to make more money... but based on the MDs I know the vast majority do it to save lives, not make money.. they tend to stay in Canada and are certainly of no lesser quality.




You will always find folks who complain about what they get. I think we should have a fully public dental and medication plan... I complain about it... but I am more than happy with what I get. I often hear stories on the fox news about cancer patients being thrown out on the street and so on... I'm sure that has happened... but those folks responsible tend to end up in jail...

 

[CycloWizard]

Oh, and to set the record straight, the responses which are attributed to me by the OP are fabrications. Here is the initial post, with link to the source:

1. What fraction of healthcare innovations are generated in those countries whose healthcare systems you would use as a model?
2. How many of those systems is sustainably funded?
3. How good is the treatment the patients receive?
4. How many of the best doctors in the world work in such systems?

Without looking up the numbers, I'll speculate on the answers based on my recent trips to Germany and the UK:
1. A very small fraction (which is why I was visiting those countries in the first place).
2. None. The German system is moving towards an American system every day, and the UK system is almost bankrupt.
3. Not bad, but not always great either. There are always exceptions, but the US generally has higher patient satisfaction than any other nation.
4. Almost none, nor are their hospitals as well equipped or staffed.

Source: http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=29599316&postcount=59

 

[Daedalus685]

but I don't think you'll find too many of these systems still in existence in 20 years, either.

Tommy Douglas died more than 20 years ago.. He helped (as in did most of the work ) bring Canada's current medical system into practise in the 60's. It has been going strong for 50 years... why would you figure it won't be able to for another 20?

 

[CycloWizard]

Tommy Douglas died more than 20 years ago.. He helped (as in did most of the work ) bring Canada's current medical system into practise in the 60's. It has been going strong for 50 years... why would you figure it won't be able to for another 20?

Canada might be an exception. I specifically mentioned the UK (which has no money to keep it going) and Germany (where people are fed up and the system is becoming more Americanized every year).