Well, South Ossetian independance sure did not last long.

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse

it's certainly a less bloody version, but it's still ethnic cleaning nonetheless... Many innocent Georgians are having their homes taken from them and becoming displaced.

How is that even remotely justifiable!?

Or, are you on the same page as senseamp and believe that all Georgians are guilty and therefore deserve it?

Want to buy a bridge?

Want to pound salt?

I never said ethnic cleansing was justifiable but I always thought it involved murder and genocide. So according to your definition of ethnic cleansing the Israeli's did the same in some of their occupied territory. Well I was against that so I'm against it in Georgia.

As far as I know, ethnic cleansing is any occasion wherein people of a specific ethnicity are forcibly removed from a locale.

If it's not OK in Kosovo, Darfur, Israel, etc; then I don't see how it would be OK in South Ossetia simply because fewer bullets are being fired to make it happen.

But, senseamp thinks it is...

He must be a supporter of Israel keeping and colonizing occupied lands too. looks like Georgian President Sackofshitville really fucked up by attacking S.O. giving the Russians the reason to do what they are doing now. What was he thinking?

 

[senseamp]

That's war in the Caucasus for ya.
Cleanse or be Cleansed, winner takes all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.

Georgia started shelling Tskhinvali civilians with artillery. If Georgia won, I wouldn't want to be a South Ossetian now, but now the tables are turned. Like I said, too bad, so sad.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: senseamp
That's war in the Caucasus for ya.
Cleanse or be Cleansed, winner takes all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.

Georgia started shelling Tskhinvali civilians with artillery. If Georgia won, I wouldn't want to be a South Ossetian now, but now the tables are turned. Like I said, too bad, so sad.

duly noted. I'll be sure to pull this up if/when you ever object to the same behavoir elsewhere in the world.

I've not many people who are cool with ethnic cleansing... congrats on being unique... not to mention heartless and sick. :|

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You have the understanding of a child. There are strategic options between escalation, antagonism, and appeasement. If Bush hadn't pursued his ridiculous foreign policy with regards to Russia in the first place, there is an extremely good chance that this issue would not have come up to begin with and if it had we would have had far better tools to oppose it. Bush's pointless antagonism has gained the US little and has contributed to the destabilization of the political situation along Russia's borders.

If you're actually interested in how Bush screwed up, how McCain will screw it up further, and a reasoned opinion about a better way to do things I will give you one, but you would have to promise to act like an adult for the rest of this thread in discussing it.

You forget who we're talking about here. Russia wants nothing more then to restore itself to its former glory and pursue the Cold War again. Which means that all those other options that you think exist, do not.

I'd be interested in how you would specifically deal with this. It seems you call for military action. If not what else?

 

[MadRat]

You do not mobilize an army in 48 hours, especially with the overwhelming man power that the Russians used. This was a preplanned invasion no doubt about it.

This was all about power. The Russians are finding themselves deeper and deeper on the ranked list of industrialized nations. If they do not strangle the oil supply within their reach they will find themselves without.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: palehorse

Originally posted by: senseamp
That's war in the Caucasus for ya.
Cleanse or be Cleansed, winner takes all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia

Violent conflict broke out towards the end of 1991 during which many South Ossetian villages were attacked and burned down as were Georgian houses and schools in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. As a result, approximately 1,000 died and about 100,000 ethnic Ossetians fled the territory and Georgia proper, most across the border into North Ossetia. A further 23,000 ethnic Georgians fled South Ossetia and settled in other parts of Georgia.

Georgia started shelling Tskhinvali civilians with artillery. If Georgia won, I wouldn't want to be a South Ossetian now, but now the tables are turned. Like I said, too bad, so sad.

duly noted. I'll be sure to pull this up if/when you ever object to the same behavoir elsewhere in the world.

I've not many people who are cool with ethnic cleansing... congrats on being unique... not to mention heartless and sick. :|

Riight. You are simply emo and out of touch with the reality of this world. This the nature of internecine warfare in the Caucuses since time immemorial. US should at least be aware of that before they expand NATO in the middle of that mess and get it involved in fighting ethnic conflicts for one side or another.
At least Ossetians are burning empty Georgian villages, not shelling cities full of people like the Georgians were doing.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: MadRat
You do not mobilize an army in 48 hours, especially with the overwhelming man power that the Russians used. This was a preplanned invasion no doubt about it.

Do you think Georgian organized their invasion of South Ossetia in 48 hours? No, they were preparing it and have been building up forces and getting trained by Americans, armed by Ukrainians, etc. Russians knew that and were preparing a response. That's why they were able to respond quickly. I don't know why people think it's so bad for Russian Army to plan for something that looks like it's about to happen, especially since Saakashvili told everyone who would listen that he planned to retake South Ossetia and Abkhazia by force. Did the Russians take full advantage of Saakashvili's folly? Hell yes, and rightly sow. Leaving Abkhazia and South Ossetia in Georgia is simply giving him more time to plan another attempt to resolve it by force. 20 years is enough to demonstrate that this conflict will not be resolved diplomatically.

This was all about power. The Russians are finding themselves deeper and deeper on the ranked list of industrialized nations. If they do not strangle the oil supply within their reach they will find themselves without.

That's a big IF. Plus if it's all about power, Russia did what it wanted, NATO and EU were powerless to stop it. In this region, Russia is the power.

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: MadRat
You do not mobilize an army in 48 hours, especially with the overwhelming man power that the Russians used. This was a preplanned invasion no doubt about it.

This was all about power. The Russians are finding themselves deeper and deeper on the ranked list of industrialized nations. If they do not strangle the oil supply within their reach they will find themselves without.

It's not Russia that will go without oil if they strangle the supply. It will be Europe.

Funny that it is Britain that is barking the loudest of the European nations, just at the same time their Chancellor of the Exchequer is saying that the UK is facing it's deepest economic crisis in 60 years. In other words it goes back to WWII and Britain was broke then and is going broke now. The Brits can feel the ground shifting beneath their feet.

If Russia is isolated and cut off from Europe there is only one place Europe can get the oil and energy it needs and that is the Middle East. In other words this is a push to pull Europe deeper into the conflicts in the Middle East and Central Asia. As usual there is method to the neocon madness. Only the way they are going it will end with nuclear war.

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You have the understanding of a child. There are strategic options between escalation, antagonism, and appeasement. If Bush hadn't pursued his ridiculous foreign policy with regards to Russia in the first place, there is an extremely good chance that this issue would not have come up to begin with and if it had we would have had far better tools to oppose it. Bush's pointless antagonism has gained the US little and has contributed to the destabilization of the political situation along Russia's borders.

If you're actually interested in how Bush screwed up, how McCain will screw it up further, and a reasoned opinion about a better way to do things I will give you one, but you would have to promise to act like an adult for the rest of this thread in discussing it.

You forget who we're talking about here. Russia wants nothing more then to restore itself to its former glory and pursue the Cold War again. Which means that all those other options that you think exist, do not.

I'd be interested in how you would specifically deal with this. It seems you call for military action. If not what else?

He'd send in Tom Clancy.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: eskimospy
You have the understanding of a child. There are strategic options between escalation, antagonism, and appeasement. If Bush hadn't pursued his ridiculous foreign policy with regards to Russia in the first place, there is an extremely good chance that this issue would not have come up to begin with and if it had we would have had far better tools to oppose it. Bush's pointless antagonism has gained the US little and has contributed to the destabilization of the political situation along Russia's borders.

If you're actually interested in how Bush screwed up, how McCain will screw it up further, and a reasoned opinion about a better way to do things I will give you one, but you would have to promise to act like an adult for the rest of this thread in discussing it.

You forget who we're talking about here. Russia wants nothing more then to restore itself to its former glory and pursue the Cold War again. Which means that all those other options that you think exist, do not.

I'd be interested in how you would specifically deal with this. It seems you call for military action. If not what else?

He'd send in Tom Clancy.

He's going to have to follow up with Slim Pickins.

 

[RU482]

Originally posted by: Double Trouble
This has very little to do with not trusting Russia. The fact is that most of the people in South Ossetia want to be a part of Russia, and many of them are already Russians. This is not a case of Russia forcefully taking over some country and making it part of Russia against the will of the inhabitants, this is Russia annexing an area that wants to be a part of Russia. I don't see the issue as long as that's the will of the population of that area --- and by all accounts it is.

So when Mexico Reclaims Arizona and California, that will be OK too?

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: BackFlow
-snip-

The fact is that most of the people in South Ossetia want to be a part of Russia, and many of them are already Russians.

I fail to see how the 1989 cencus, Russian at 2.1% would have change so much that there be more presently. Wait a minute, Russian population has gone up in South Ossetia because of the large number of Ruskie army that currently living there. And, most if not all Ossetian err... I mean Russian have Russian passport.

I've been wondering about this. So, the Russian population goes from a historically low number to a very rapid majority? 2.1% in 1989 to over 70% now?

Looks like the Russians have a done a *stealth occupation* recently. To claim that a vote by S.O. resolves the matter looks wrong to me.

What are Russian citizens doing in SO and why does their vote even matter?

Originally posted by: redly1
-snip-
So when Mexico Reclaims Arizona and California, that will be OK too?

Might be an apt analogy.

What if the all the Mexican citizens (illegal immigrants here) in CA, AZ etc vote to join Mexico, would those of you pushing this line of argument support them too?

Fern

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: Fern

Originally posted by: BackFlow
-snip-

The fact is that most of the people in South Ossetia want to be a part of Russia, and many of them are already Russians.

I fail to see how the 1989 cencus, Russian at 2.1% would have change so much that there be more presently. Wait a minute, Russian population has gone up in South Ossetia because of the large number of Ruskie army that currently living there. And, most if not all Ossetian err... I mean Russian have Russian passport.

I've been wondering about this. So, the Russian population goes from a historically low number to a very rapid majority? 2.1% in 1989 to over 70% now?

Looks like the Russians have a done a *stealth occupation* recently. To claim that a vote by S.O. resolves the matter looks wrong to me.

What are Russian citizens doing in SO and why does their vote even matter?

Originally posted by: redly1
-snip-
So when Mexico Reclaims Arizona and California, that will be OK too?

Might be an apt analogy.

What if the all the Mexican citizens (illegal immigrants here) in CA, AZ etc vote to join Mexico, would those of you pushing this line of argument support them too?

Fern

Except they can't vote, they're illegals

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Fern
-snip-

Except they can't vote, they're illegals

How do you know who voted in the S.O. referendum?

Fern