Well now ive lost all faith for NVidia!

SSXeon5

Senior member
Mar 4, 2002
542
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0
If you havent heard this already then here it is:

3DMark03 v3.3.0 is an updated version of 3DMark03. Hardware review sites discovered deliberate cheats in some drivers. These drivers identify 3DMark03 build 3.2.0, and render the tests differently than 3DMark03 instructs, in order to gain additional performance. Build 3.3.0 has been changed so that the test results remain the same, but the questionable drivers do not identify 3DMark03 anymore. The drivers now think 3DMark is a 3D application among others, and render the tests like 3DMark instructs. This produces a result that is genuinely comparable to other hardware. NOTE: 3DMark03 results from the original version (313) are identical with the results of this new build (330), and those of the first patch (320), except when using certain drivers with built in cheats. Please read the Audit Report for more information.
Fixes & Updates:

-Graphics card core and memory speed detection corrected under Win98/SE/ME.
-Updated graphics card core and memory speed detection


P4 3Ghz / 865PE

GeForce FX 5800 Ultra
----------------------(Patch 320)--(Patch 330)--(% Change)
3DMark2003 Score-- 5859 ------- 4796 -------- -22.2%
Game Test 1 --------- 196.3 ------ 169.2 -------- -16.0%
Game Test 2 ---------- 39.8 ------- 35.3 --------- -12.7%
Game Test 3 ---------- 31.3 ------- 29.6 ----------- -5.7%
Game Test 4 ---------- 38.3 ------- 22.3 ----------- -7.4%

Radeon 9800 Pro
----------------------(Patch 320)--(Patch 330)--(% Change)
3DMark2003 Score-- 5780 ------- 5684 --------- -1.96%
Game Test 1 --------- 195.4 ------ 195.8 ----------- 0.2%
Game Test 2 ---------- 37.6 ------- 37.8 ------------ 0.5%
Game Test 3 ---------- 33.6 ------- 33.6 -------------- 0%
Game Test 4 ---------- 35.7 ------- 33.0 ----------- -0.8%

I mean i know about the little quark thing in quake 3 but i never saw the diff without it. THIS is just sad ....

SSXeon
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Holy sweet jesus I have been living under a rock for the past 2 weeks. Thank you for informing me of this!
 

Blastman

Golden Member
Oct 21, 1999
1,758
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76
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
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Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

Please go purchase a functional Sarcasm Detector. Browsing Anandtech without one is hazardous to your health.

- M4H
 

JackBurton

Lifer
Jul 18, 2000
15,993
14
81
Holy cow, that is news to me! Have you also heard that Intel is recalling all it's brand new 1.13GHz PIII because they are not stable at that speed? More AMAZING and up to date news coming your way later tonight...
 

Blastman

Golden Member
Oct 21, 1999
1,758
0
76
Please go purchase a functional Sarcasm Detector. Browsing Anandtech without one is hazardous to your health.
Got a link. LOL

You?re right I guess my ?LOL? and boldface type weren?t enough.
 

Confused

Elite Member
Nov 13, 2000
14,166
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Originally posted by: JackBurton
Holy cow, that is news to me! Have you also heard that Intel is recalling all it's brand new 1.13GHz PIII because they are not stable at that speed? More AMAZING and up to date news coming your way later tonight...

*Radio Static* Whiskey Tango Foxtrot *Radio Static*

I never heard about this! Maybe I should start another thread about how I have lost all faith for Intel! And what about all these PR Ratings coming from AMD! I've lost all faith in them too! Oh no, whatever shall I do!? :confused: And VIA/Cyrix used those really poor PR Ratings years ago, so I have lost all faith in them too! What shall I do now, that's all the PC processor manufacturers that have lost my faith!

Looks like I'll have to go to Apple. Oh, but wait, their processors don't run as fast as Intel ones do at the same speed, now I have lost my faith in Apple!!


This has been a test broadcast of the Sarcasm Detection System. If you failed to get it, please check the batteries in your Acme Sarcasm Detector, and buy some new ones from the hardware store located to your right



rolleye.gif




Confused
 

Richdog

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2003
1,658
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0
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

-------------------------------------




And who said Anandtech users werent a bunch of malicious, unfunny little morons?
rolleye.gif
Personality disorders seem to be rife on this forum, dont know why though... SSXeon5 if I were you Id just be happy that even though your news may be out of date, youre not a p*ick... more than can be said for some though eh boys?
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

-------------------------------------




And who said Anandtech users werent a bunch of malicious, unfunny little morons?
rolleye.gif
Personality disorders seem to be rife on this forum, dont know why though... SSXeon5 if I were you Id just be happy that even though your news may be out of date, youre not a p*ick... more than can be said for some though eh boys?

No, we just tend to get sick of OMFG BREAKING NEWZZZ after the tenth repost or so. Even screaming REPOST gets old, you know.

BTW, way to quote. You suck at the Internet.

- M4H
 

Richdog

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2003
1,658
0
0
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

-------------------------------------




And who said Anandtech users werent a bunch of malicious, unfunny little morons?
rolleye.gif
Personality disorders seem to be rife on this forum, dont know why though... SSXeon5 if I were you Id just be happy that even though your news may be out of date, youre not a p*ick... more than can be said for some though eh boys?

No, we just tend to get sick of OMFG BREAKING NEWZZZ after the tenth repost or so. Even screaming REPOST gets old, you know.

BTW, way to quote. You suck at the Internet.

- M4H

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To quote: 'You need to get a life beyond the internet' ;)
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

-------------------------------------




And who said Anandtech users werent a bunch of malicious, unfunny little morons?
rolleye.gif
Personality disorders seem to be rife on this forum, dont know why though... SSXeon5 if I were you Id just be happy that even though your news may be out of date, youre not a p*ick... more than can be said for some though eh boys?

No, we just tend to get sick of OMFG BREAKING NEWZZZ after the tenth repost or so. Even screaming REPOST gets old, you know.

BTW, way to quote. You suck at the Internet.

- M4H

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To quote: 'You need to get a life beyond the internet' ;)

Got one. I do this in my spare time. If all I did was nef, I'd have about 40000 posts by now.

- M4H
 

SSXeon5

Senior member
Mar 4, 2002
542
0
0
christ i have been out of the forum loop for a wile and didnt see any posts latley ..... EXSQUESE MEEEE!!!! Just think that was really lame :D

DTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTDTTDTDTDTDTD

SSXeon
 

RobsTV

Platinum Member
Feb 11, 2000
2,520
0
0
SSXeon5,
based on your sig, your post has a slightly different twist than if the post was from
someone that actually "Had Faith in NVidia". Your post has nothing to do with your
faith in NVidia. You are ATi and Intel all the way.

To lose something means you must have had it first.

Why the big stink about NVidia and no one mentions the big performance difference between Intel and AMD in 3dm03?

Take a look at ATi's 9800 scores in 3dm03 with an Intel/AMD CPU range of 2900 to 3100 MHz.
AMD is beating Intel by huge amounts. (about 1000 points, and that holds fairly well at lower CPU speeds too).
The difference in CPU's used (AMD or Intel) is more than any difference in video cards used.
Yes, I guess if you had both an ATi card and an Intel CPU, you would try to find reasons to justify the deficiency.
 

Guspaz

Member
Mar 14, 2003
142
0
0
So many people don't seem to understand the difference between optimizing and cheating.

What ATI has done has been likened to compiler optimizations; they modify the program WITHOUT AFFECTING IT'S OUTPUT so that it runs better. This is not cheating, it's an optimization, and it's the kind of thing that can be done in every game (And is done, AFAIK, those performance boosts in drivers don't come from nowhere). It's only cheating when visual quality is affected.

Even John Carmack and Mark Rein recognize this difference.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
No it isnt. They re-wrote the shader program and ran it when it detected 3dmark. Compiler optimization would apply to everything. If you dont think that is cheating then how is Nvidia cheating?????? Under normal circumstances the output is no different than without the cheat, only faster. It is only when you start to bend the application and use it outside of the scope does it break.

Fact is both are cheating. ATI even admits it and is taking the cheats out of thier next driver revision.
 

Pete

Diamond Member
Oct 10, 1999
4,953
0
0
Originally posted by: Genx87
No it isnt. They re-wrote the shader program and ran it when it detected 3dmark. Compiler optimization would apply to everything.
True, they did substitute 3DM's shaders with their own, which is a cheat in the sense that 3DM is a test of generic DX9 performance, not tuned performance. But what makes it less than totally evil is that ATi just reordered the shader calls to make them run faster; they didn't affect final output at all. And ATi owned up to it, though, and nVidia has yet to.

If you dont think that is cheating then how is Nvidia cheating?????? Under normal circumstances the output is no different than without the cheat, only faster. It is only when you start to bend the application and use it outside of the scope does it break.
Wrong. Look at the animated gif's from this review to see how nV's cheats affected IQ (warning, it's a big page with lots of pics):
http://ixbt.com/video2/herc-r9800-r7500.shtml

nV's cheats also amounted to more than lowering precision; they included hacks (like clip planes and no buffer clears) that would NOT work in any other game. Those hacks only work in timedemo benchmarks (like in 3DM or Q3 or UT2K3 or SS2 or any other 3D engine with the ability to perform benchmarks on prerecorded demos), when you know where the camera will be ahead of time. Thus they only serve to boost timedemo benchmark scores--they will not boost in-game scores at all, whereas ATi's optimization will boost game scores as well.

I can't believe you still don't understand the differences between what ATi and nVidia did. Try reading into and understanding the issue first before spouting off. And forget about 3DMark for the moment, if you consider it so worthless. Just think that these cheats that nVidia implemented can be used in any other timedemo (fixed-camera) benchmark to produce inflated scores that don't predict in-game (free-camera) performance. So the issue is potentially much larger than just 3DM. What ATi did to 3DM, most people (including Carmack and Sweeney, as they said) would welcome, as it boosts performance without impacting IQ. What nVidia did, most people (including Carmack and Sweeney, as they said) would NOT welcome, as it's basically a lie meant to deceive people about their products' true performance.

But for now, the issue is wholly within 3DM. If no other exposes surface that shows nVidia is cheating on other benchmarks, then we can drop the whole issue and be left with only a bad taste in our mouths, and a more cynical eye to online reviews (which is a good thing--more people should be questioning Anand's Q3 benches in his 5900U review, as well as his headlining the review with a beta game).
 

waylman

Diamond Member
Apr 4, 2003
3,473
0
0
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Richdog
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: Confused
Originally posted by: Blastman
Originally posted by: MercenaryForHire
THIS WAS NEWS THE FIRST 20 TIMES IT WAS POSTED.

- M4H
This is an entirely new topic. It?s not about NV cheating. It?s about SSXeon5 losing all faith for Nvidia.

LOL

No, this is SSXeon5 bitching and moaning about the same thing that has been posted SOO many times in the past week.

Confused
I was JOKING confused.. As in HaHa.

-------------------------------------




And who said Anandtech users werent a bunch of malicious, unfunny little morons?
rolleye.gif
Personality disorders seem to be rife on this forum, dont know why though... SSXeon5 if I were you Id just be happy that even though your news may be out of date, youre not a p*ick... more than can be said for some though eh boys?

No, we just tend to get sick of OMFG BREAKING NEWZZZ after the tenth repost or so. Even screaming REPOST gets old, you know.

BTW, way to quote. You suck at the Internet.

- M4H

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


To quote: 'You need to get a life beyond the internet' ;)

Got one. I do this in my spare time. If all I did was nef, I'd have about 40000 posts by now.

- M4H


OK, you've been a member since Jan 2002 and you have over 7000 posts. That's about 14 posts EVERYDAY since Jan 2002. You need to get a life beyond the internet.
 
Jan 31, 2002
40,819
2
0
Originally posted by: waylman
OK, you've been a member since Jan 2002 and you have over 7000 posts. That's about 14 posts EVERYDAY since Jan 2002. You need to get a life beyond the internet.

Oh dear god, no. Not fourteen posts. Oh, god. Help. I'm on here 24/7.

</sarcasm>

Yeah, that'd be an issue if I didn't type 70wpm and make each of those posts in about thirty seconds of my time. Do you watch "reality TV"? If so, not only are you dumber, but you also waste more time per day doing that than I do neffing.

- M4H