Well, many of you called this

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
...

How is any of that relevant to what has happened here?
Link

Recently, GM told workers it would close a parts distribution center in Massachusetts. The facility sits in the congressional district of Democrat Barney Frank. Frank chairs the House Committee on Financial Services, which oversees the very government money that has kept GM alive.

Frank didn't want to see more of his constituents out of work in a deep recession, so he e-mailed the White House.

"I also called somebody at General Motors on Monday and said I think this is a bad idea, this is a bad time to do this," he says.

GM CEO Fritz Henderson met with Frank. Afterward, Henderson extended the life of the center for another seven months.

Moreover, if he emailed the Whitehouse, this clearly shows that the Obama administration, receiving an email from Barney Frank, knew exactly what he was trying to do.

Way to not refute a single thing I said.

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
So you say.

Of course, other than your FEAR and embellishment you have nothing to add. Extra-ordinary times call for extra-ordinary measures. I feel certain that given the choice no one in America wanted Bush to fail so miserably as to necessitate all the actions taken in the last 2 years.

But you probably knew that.

heyheybooboo.txt

"BUT BUSH...!"

Ditto.

Uh, yes, he did. You're too busy trolling though, so you might have missed it...

How is he trolling?
The poster offered info regarding this plant, with links as well as his personal commentary.
How was he trolling? Better yet, in what manner is he expressing himself different than the way you are in this thread?

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: RKDaley

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
...

How is any of that relevant to what has happened here?
Link

Recently, GM told workers it would close a parts distribution center in Massachusetts. The facility sits in the congressional district of Democrat Barney Frank. Frank chairs the House Committee on Financial Services, which oversees the very government money that has kept GM alive.

Frank didn't want to see more of his constituents out of work in a deep recession, so he e-mailed the White House.

"I also called somebody at General Motors on Monday and said I think this is a bad idea, this is a bad time to do this," he says.

GM CEO Fritz Henderson met with Frank. Afterward, Henderson extended the life of the center for another seven months.

Moreover, if he emailed the Whitehouse, this clearly shows that the Obama administration, receiving an email from Barney Frank, knew exactly what he was trying to do.

Way to not refute a single thing I said.

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
So you say.

Of course, other than your FEAR and embellishment you have nothing to add. Extra-ordinary times call for extra-ordinary measures. I feel certain that given the choice no one in America wanted Bush to fail so miserably as to necessitate all the actions taken in the last 2 years.

But you probably knew that.

heyheybooboo.txt

"BUT BUSH...!"

Ditto.

Uh, yes, he did. You're too busy trolling though, so you might have missed it...

How is he trolling?
The poster offered info regarding this plant, with links as well as his personal commentary.
How was he trolling? Better yet, in what manner is he expressing himself different than the way you are in this thread?

Are you serious?

Let's see...he mockingly calls us "Geniuses".

He calls us "NeanderCons".

He sets up the Straw Man argument that the plant isn't officially a GM plant, when in fact, it doesn't matter because GM still had the authority to shut the plant down, and was going to do so on schedule until Barney Frank intervened.

Once proven wrong, he then sets up ANOTHER Straw Man argument that the facility is still closing, but the closing has been delayed. Uh, yes, hello? We all already said that. What is his argument again? He doesn't have one...he's just trolling the thread after he was disproved.

 

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Are you serious?

Let's see...he mockingly calls us "Geniuses".

He calls us "NeanderCons".

He sets up the Straw Man argument that the plant isn't officially a GM plant, when in fact, it doesn't matter because GM still had the authority to shut the plant down, and was going to do so on schedule until Barney Frank intervened.

Once proven wrong, he then sets up ANOTHER Straw Man argument that the facility is still closing, but the closing has been delayed. Uh, yes, hello? We all already said that. What is his argument again? He doesn't have one...he's just trolling the thread after he was disproved.

Yes, I am serious.
Sarcasm? Like your "are you serious" and "Uh yes, hello" response?
I asked a question wanting clarification regarding your accusation of him "trolling". What you described in not "trolling". If it were, pretty much everyone that posts on this board is a troll. Including you.

 

[Ronstang]

Let's not be naive people. This is EXACTLY why Rick Wagoner was forced out of GM. Anyone that has paid any attention to GM and the US auto industry could see that Rick had done more for GM in the last few years to turn it around then Lutz did his entire tenure. Wagoner should have been left at the helm of GM but he is not a lapdog like Fritz Henderson....who is just a puppet and was picked for this very reason.

 

[RyanPaulShaffer]

Originally posted by: RKDaley

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
Are you serious?

Let's see...he mockingly calls us "Geniuses".

He calls us "NeanderCons".

He sets up the Straw Man argument that the plant isn't officially a GM plant, when in fact, it doesn't matter because GM still had the authority to shut the plant down, and was going to do so on schedule until Barney Frank intervened.

Once proven wrong, he then sets up ANOTHER Straw Man argument that the facility is still closing, but the closing has been delayed. Uh, yes, hello? We all already said that. What is his argument again? He doesn't have one...he's just trolling the thread after he was disproved.

Yes, I am serious.
Sarcasm? Like your "are you serious" and "Uh yes, hello" response?
I asked a question wanting clarification regarding your accusation of him "trolling". What you described in not "trolling". If it were, pretty much everyone that posts on this board is a troll. Including you.

So, he posts straw man arguments, and I refute them. He then posts insults, and yet, I am the troll? Was I the one mockingly calling people "geniuses" and NeanderCons?

Wow. AT P&N forum "logic" and it's finest. Where refuting fallacious arguments gets you called a troll.



Just come out and say that you agree with what he said and don't agree with what I said. Good grief.



At any rate, I'm not going to respond any more, because heyheybooboo has succeeded in his goal: derail a good discussion thread.

 

[Fingolfin269]

I think the other apologists are busy in the other threads explaining to us how the government can easily run health care efficiently. You can't say that in one thread and then come in this thread and feel good about yourself.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo

So you say.

Of course, other than your FEAR and embellishment you have nothing to add. Extra-ordinary times call for extra-ordinary measures. I feel certain that given the choice no one in America wanted Bush to fail so miserably as to necessitate all the actions taken in the last 2 years.

But you probably knew that.

So basically never let a good crisis go to waste, eh? Got to use this to grab as much power as possible, as quickly as possible, eh?

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I think the other apologists are busy in the other threads explaining to us how the government can easily run health care efficiently. You can't say that in one thread and then come in this thread and feel good about yourself.

Are you implying that GM was efficiently run prior to government involvement (bailouts)?

 

[RKDaley]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

So, he posts straw man arguments, and I refute them. He then posts insults, and yet, I am the troll? Was I the one mockingly calling people "geniuses" and NeanderCons?

Wow. AT P&N forum "logic" and it's finest. Where refuting fallacious arguments gets you called a troll.



Just come out and say that you agree with what he said and don't agree with what I said. Good grief.



At any rate, I'm not going to respond any more, because heyheybooboo has succeeded in his goal: derail a good discussion thread.

Heyheybooboo refuted the OP. He may not have done so in a manner that you liked, but he offered his side of the GM situation. Had he said nothing and just came to this thread calling names, I'd agree. But that was not how I saw it. You called him a troll, I questioned it, and you described a behavior that a good amount of people here engage in, including yourself.

His use of "genuis" is mocking, much like your comment in an earlier post using the term "totally naive". Yet you call him a troll.

Yes, AT P&N "logic" at it's finest.

 

[BoberFett]

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I think the other apologists are busy in the other threads explaining to us how the government can easily run health care efficiently. You can't say that in one thread and then come in this thread and feel good about yourself.

Yeah, but we HAVE to keep that drug company with inflated profits running. It's in my district!

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: BoberFett

Originally posted by: Fingolfin269
I think the other apologists are busy in the other threads explaining to us how the government can easily run health care efficiently. You can't say that in one thread and then come in this thread and feel good about yourself.

Yeah, but we HAVE to keep that drug company with inflated profits running. It's in my district!

And defense contractors! It creates high paying jobs!

 

[ElFenix]

soon there will be GM plants in every congressional district

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: ElFenix
soon there will be GM plants in every congressional district

(as long as they ALL use my company as a supplier )

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: ElFenix
soon there will be GM plants in every congressional district

(as long as they ALL use my company as a supplier )

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

In what district is your company located?

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: ElFenix
soon there will be GM plants in every congressional district

(as long as they ALL use my company as a supplier )

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

In what district is your company located?

Jeff Davis, or maybe Chandler

 

[Engineer]

Originally posted by: spidey07

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Engineer

Originally posted by: ElFenix
soon there will be GM plants in every congressional district

(as long as they ALL use my company as a supplier )

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute.

In what district is your company located?

Jeff Davis, or maybe Chandler

Actually, it would be for Auburn Hills, MI (or possibly Warren, MI but I've heard we're moving HQ to Auburn Hills).

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer
He sets up the Straw Man argument that the plant isn't officially a GM plant, when in fact, it doesn't matter because GM still had the authority to shut the plant down, and was going to do so on schedule until Barney Frank intervened.

Once proven wrong, he then sets up ANOTHER Straw Man argument that the facility is still closing, but the closing has been delayed. Uh, yes, hello? We all already said that. What is his argument again? He doesn't have one...he's just trolling the thread after he was disproved.

Exactly.

Heyheybooboo refuted the OP.

He did not refute. He simply added more information to the discussion, albeit not relevant to the original point, which is that Frank's intervention reversed a GM decision on GM's own business. A refute would have been to say "OP you're wrong, and here's why." He didn't do that, but has somehow tried to imply that since the plant is still closing, the fact that its closing was delayed is immaterial.

 

[theeedude]

Is this where we pretend that this is something new? Defense and other government contractors have been "spreading the love" to politically important districts for ages.

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: Starbuck1975
Great...so instead of overpaid executives making poor decisions, we now have corrupt politicians with conflicts of interest making poor decisions.

this.

so fucking predictable.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: eleison
I'm surprised people are shocked. He already sent a message.. Remember the fly? Between the smiles and the jocularity, it was a message. You mess with the O-administration.. you get smooshed..... muahahahahaah ...

You just don't get the Obama administration mad.. and you definitely don't mess with Obama motors.. chicago politics... ;-P

Still GM, Gay Motors.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I hate to rain on this parade but the Norton facility is not a GM plant - it's a parts distribution center for the NE.

The center still appears to be on schedule for closing next summer with consolidated operations in Philly, or maybe NJ.

GM actually sold the Norton facility in Jan/08 for $25 million and now leases the building. The newly built Norton replaced the Westwood Parts Distribution Center that has been torn down for a new (now stalled) mixed-use development.

There are a number of issues that must be 'unwound'. Financing for the facility was through tax increment financing (TIF) and it appears several million dollars of road improvements were made. These inducements were for the promise of the creation of 140 'new jobs'.

GM has received $250k in property tax breaks that, theoretically were passed to the new owner (or may be passed on to any new future owner(s) ) that decides to reinvest in the facility (which is 400k sq ft). I don't know what the total state and local tax breaks were to be, or what the actual cost of the facility ended up being (I've seen $37 million tossed around). Who knows what the status of the GM lease may be? Or how the GM bankruptcy may effect the new owner of the facility.

I don't like the idea of any politician interjecting themselves into something like this but a little extra time will hopefully protect all the parties involved.

Originally posted by: spidey07
Soon the government will be in control of most major industries (auto, oil, energy, transportation, health) and really have complete control over it's citizens.

So you say.

Of course, other than your FEAR and embellishment you have nothing to add. Extra-ordinary times call for extra-ordinary measures. I feel certain that given the choice no one in America wanted Bush to fail so miserably as to necessitate all the actions taken in the last 2 years.

But you probably knew that.

phokus.pdf

 

[TheSkinsFan]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Is this where we pretend that this is something new? Defense and other government contractors have been "spreading the love" to politically important districts for ages.

blind loyalty.

two wrongs make a right.

change.

 

[heyheybooboo]

The Right Wing Argumentum Ad Infinitum.

Get the last word in and we have to be right!

Along the way we get nuggets of wisdom like:

"" Barney is a defacto boss ... in control of GM. ""

"" Soon the government will be in control of most major industries ... and really have complete control over it's citizens. ""

The OP's Topic Summary: Barney Frank overrides GM decision on plant close

Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
I hate to rain on this parade but the Norton facility is not a GM plant - it's a parts distribution center for the NE.

The center still appears to be on schedule for closing next summer with consolidated operations in Philly, or maybe NJ.

GM actually sold the Norton facility in Jan/08 for $25 million and now leases the building. The newly built Norton replaced the Westwood Parts Distribution Center that has been torn down for a new (now stalled) mixed-use development.

There are a number of issues that must be 'unwound'. Financing for the facility was through tax increment financing (TIF) and it appears several million dollars of road improvements were made. These inducements were for the promise of the creation of 140 'new jobs'.

GM has received $250k in property tax breaks that, theoretically were passed to the new owner (or may be passed on to any new future owner(s) ) that decides to reinvest in the facility (which is 400k sq ft). I don't know what the total state and local tax breaks were to be, or what the actual cost of the facility ended up being (I've seen $37 million tossed around). Who knows what the status of the GM lease may be? Or how the GM bankruptcy may effect the new owner of the facility.

I don't like the idea of any politician interjecting themselves into something like this but a little extra time will hopefully protect all the parties involved.

Straw man argument, my ass.

Originally posted by: RyanPaulShaffer

It has been very odd. You would have expected at least one copy and paste of Phokus.txt, Craig.txt and/or techs.txt by now, some kind of "pass the buck to Bush/Republicans"; anything! But they have been notably absent here, yet active in other threads...hmm.

It seems like they only pick the easy battles, and when they are outmatched and clearly wrong, they take their toys and go home.

Too bad 72 percent of Americans believe that the current state of the economy is something Obama inherited rather than created and by a more than 2 to 1 margin Blame Bush.

Welcome to reality, Chump.

 

[Red Dawn]

This just in, Barney Frank is a slimy politician, news at 11. Actually he' serving his constituents well. Now if he was receiving a kickback you'd really have some interesting news.

 

[Steeplerot]

If there were blogs and forums during the depression could you imagine the all-encompassing whine / spin coming from the right as FDR saved the country?